Dock ASBO kids family dole says TD

Pkiernan

Hear hear.

First time this guy had said anything useful.


As least he recognises the root cause.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-parents-whose-children-run-riot-and-engaged-in-antisocial-behaviour-says-fianna-fils-willie-odea-38102502.html

suicide_circus

yeah, trial it as an idea.

_Kaiser_

A politician/political party with elections on the horizon says what.....?

.... Anything that will get their name in the papers and on social media.

That's not to say that he's wrong BTW, just that it's more likely a vote-grabbing exercise than an actual serious proposal. The bleeding hearts would go nuts (far better to leave the feral folk with enough cash to get by, than risk them venturing into their leafy suburbs in search of more)

Hal3000

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

A politician/political party with elections on the horizon says what.....?

.... Anything that will get their name in the papers and on social media.

That's not to say that he's wrong BTW, just that it's more likely a vote-grabbing exercise than an actual serious proposal. The bleeding hearts would go nuts (far better to leave the feral folk with enough cash to get by, than risk them venturing into their leafy suburbs in search of more)

Who cares ? Get it through and it'll be still around when he's gone. Agree, the bleeding hearts will be on soon about social inequality - understanding the issues firstly. I'm all for equality but deviant behaviour needs consequences.

_Kaiser_

Hal3000 wrote: »

Who cares ? Get it through and it'll be still around when he's gone.

My point was it'll never happen, but as your post demonstrates, it could win him a few votes all the same.

Very easy to make populist statements (remember Leo being the man who was going to look out for the people who get up early?) when you've no intention/ability to actually deliver.

(edit to your edit) Many of the bleeding hearts don't actually care about "social inequality" either you know. It's just a convenient looks-good means of ensuring that asbo-types are kept well away from their homes. See also the recent news of the Docklands developers avoiding the planning requirements for social housing in new developments, etc

Littlehorny

Member of Fianna Fail says something before an election, move along folks nothing to see here.

One eyed Jack

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hear hear.

First time this guy had said anything useful.


As least he recognises the root cause.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-parents-whose-children-run-riot-and-engaged-in-antisocial-behaviour-says-fianna-fils-willie-odea-38102502.html

If you had quoted him properly as opposed to only focusing on what you imagine is the root cause and method of addressing the issues caused by antisocial behaviour, neither you nor he would still be saying anything useful.

Here’s what he actually said -

"Some parents are allowing their children to behave in such a way that they are out of control. They should take some responsibility for that. They should be penalised in some shape or form, either through fines or having their social welfare stopped," he told the Sunday Independent.

However, Mr O'Dea said the ultimate responsibility for loutish behaviour by young people must lie with their parents. He has called for them to face sanctions.

"If there is evidence where a parent doesn't know where their child is and what they are getting up to, especially in cases of anti-social behaviour, then action needs to be taken," he said. "Parents have a huge role in this and they should be forced to act when they otherwise don't."


It’s as though he imagines parents aren’t aware of this already. As others have pointed out though, he hasn’t had anything useful to say in all his time as a TD.

RobbingBandit

Minister for defence posses with a gun like two bit gangster, shadow minister for social protection proposing an unsocial unprotected antisocial Draconian means to deal with situations which once he and his pals are back in charge of the decision making will mean less than nothing to them to garner a few votes.

Politics in the Banana Republic they haven't gone away they're just waiting to come running back.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hear hear.

First time this guy had said anything useful.


As least he recognises the root cause.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-parents-whose-children-run-riot-and-engaged-in-antisocial-behaviour-says-fianna-fils-willie-odea-38102502.html

Recgonises, maybe. Dealing with - nope.

El_Bee

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hear hear.

First time this guy had said anything useful.


As least he recognises the root cause.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-parents-whose-children-run-riot-and-engaged-in-antisocial-behaviour-says-fianna-fils-willie-odea-38102502.html

Totally unfair sure how are they supposed to control their little angels ffs those poor mothers and sometimes fathers if they're around it's not their fault their kids are out all hours terrorizing people. Seriously though no TD in their right mind would campaign on any form of lowering of social welfare, just wouldn't happen regardless of the situation.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

(edit to your edit) Many of the bleeding hearts don't actually care about "social inequality" either you know. It's just a convenient looks-good means of ensuring that asbo-types are kept well away from their homes. See also the recent news of the Docklands developers avoiding the planning requirements for social housing in new developments, etc

Because property developers are bleeding hearts? Or because bleeding hearts gravitate towards the docklands?

You don't have to be Fr Peter McVerry and want to go live with the homeless to actually have some basic human empathy / decency, you know?

When you wrote "Many of the bleeding hearts don't actually care about social equality", I was thinking you were going to follow it up with something solid. But it was just a rant, based on a feeling you have.

Maybe you don't care about low-income households but that's on you, no need to drag everyone else into it.

_Kaiser_

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Because property developers are bleeding hearts? Or because bleeding hearts gravitate towards the docklands?

You don't have to be Fr Peter McVerry and want to go live with the homeless to actually have some basic human empathy / decency, you know?

When you wrote "Many of the bleeding hearts don't actually care about social equality", I was thinking you were going to follow it up with something solid. But it was just a rant, based on a feeling you have.

Maybe you don't care about low-income households but that's on you, no need to drag everyone else into it.

Look it up. The planning requirements are such that 10% of new builds have to be given over to social housing. In a recent Docklands apartment build the council have decided to allow the developer not adhere to this (citing costs) and will buy elsewhere.

The reality here is that these are very expensive apartments that the developers know won't shift as well if 10% are occupied by social housing residents. Like it or not, those residents come with a stigma of antisocial behaviour (not undeserved in too many cases) and resentment of those who have paid full price. This isn't a new story of course - it's been going on for years and all over the country.

If you'd actually bothered to read what I said, you'd have read that the true motivation of those who shout about inequality is often nothing at all to do with the welfare of the people concerned and more about themselves - again not solely restricted to housing either.

orourkeda1977

Will docking their dole just convert them from ASBO into criminals.

What they lose on dole money they'll steal it back some other way.

Personally, I'd use several of them as an example. Put 10 or 20 of them into a wheelchair or a coma and put it up on youtube.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Even if it were introduced it would never work because Mr & Mrs Scumbag would take court action (with free legal aid) to plead their case and tell how their hearts are broken with wee Jonny Scumbag and how they’re trying their best but he’s out of control blah blah whinge blah and stupid old decrepit ‘detached from reality’ Judge Fûckwit will take pity on them and let them off.

But it’s a good idea all the same. It’s just a pity we can’t ever enact water right fool proof legislation that can tackle these issues.

pure.conya

Hal3000 wrote: »

Who cares ? Get it through and it'll be still around when he's gone. Agree, the bleeding hearts will be on soon about social inequality - understanding the issues firstly. I'm all for equality but deviant behaviour needs consequences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHN18Rzhk_c

Talk is cheap. Get it done.

pure.conya

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Look it up. The planning requirements are such that 10% of new builds have to be given over to social housing. In a recent Docklands apartment build the council have decided to allow the developer not adhere to this (citing costs) and will buy elsewhere.

The reality here is that these are very expensive apartments that the developers know won't shift as well if 10% are occupied by social housing residents. Like it or not, those residents come with a stigma of antisocial behaviour (not undeserved in too many cases) and resentment of those who have paid full price. This isn't a new story of course - it's been going on for years and all over the country.

If you'd actually bothered to read what I said, you'd have read that the true motivation of those who shout about inequality is often nothing at all to do with the welfare of the people concerned and more about themselves - again not solely restricted to housing either.

this avoidance goes on everywhere, same in Galway, a developer can offset their "obligation" in one estate by simply building more than the 10% in another estate

Floppybits

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Even if it were introduced it would never work because Mr & Mrs Scumbag would take court action (with free legal aid) to plead their case and tell how their hearts are broken with wee Jonny Scumbag and how they’re trying their best but he’s out of control blah blah whinge blah and stupid old decrepit ‘detached from reality’ Judge Fûckwit will take pity on them and let them off.

But it’s a good idea all the same. It’s just a pity we can’t ever enact water right fool proof legislation that can tackle these issues.

I think this is a good idea, parents should be made responsible for the actions of their kids. They should make the fines a percentage of the parents income rather than a flat fine this way better off parents are going to feel the effects of the fine the same as a poorer parents.

If the parents start using the excuse that they can't do anything about little Johnny Scumbag then the courts should have the powers to tag little johnny scumbag and put them on probation. Once the scumbags start having their life impacted by their actions then it may make them think about what they are doing.

Yes it is not going to work for all but if it stops some folks then it is a good thing.

RobertKK

It should only be docked if some counter measure is used to help that family, whether that is voluntary or involuntary.
I mean just docking it is not going to fix an underlying problem.
It has to be more than just docking.

Kermit.de.frog

If these so called "parents" knew that their dole was at risk if little Anto went riot we might suddenly find a new sense of responsibility quickly emerging! I agree it should at least be trialed as a real deterrent.

MrFresh

Hal3000 wrote: »

Who cares ? Get it through and it'll be still around when he's gone. Agree, the bleeding hearts will be on soon about social inequality - understanding the issues firstly. I'm all for equality but deviant behaviour needs consequences.

it would probably be unconstitutional.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If these so called "parents" knew that their dole was at risk if little Anto went riot we might suddenly find a new sense of responsibility quickly emerging! I agree it should at least be trialed as a real deterrent.

unfortunately i very much doubt that we would find this in reality. if they are the type not to care about what their kids are doing, then i wouldn't be surprised if they were the type to be willing to suplament their lost dole via other means. either way they won't lose but we will.
the way to deal with scumbag teenagers and children is to tag them or lock them up or both where possible, as these methods inconvenience the individuals acting up.

Mad_maxx

First time Willie o dea has ever said anything valuable, don't see this playing well in Limerick city North however, still Willie can afford to loose some votes

James Brown

Yet if it's a wealthy family, sure hi-jinks, don't want to ruin his Rugby career or make him miss his exams.

Jurgen Klopp

You fine them if a kid runs riot. Yet if a parent is stuck with an absolute **** if a young lad and so much as clatters them they'll be up in court!

I can't imagine "grounding" "taking away their gadgets" or any of this modern "progressive" attempts at parenting will work on some of the young knacks that are the trouble!

KikiLaRue

It's a beautiful day out lads. Like seriously, it's stunning.

Just a thought, instead of getting into yet another argument 'hates the dole scroungers versus lefty liberal snowflakes', get away from your desk and get outside, enjoy a few minutes of sun, take a few deep breaths and appreciate everything you have.

Pkiernan

KikiLaRue wrote: »

It's a beautiful day out lads. Like seriously, it's stunning.

Just a thought, instead of getting into yet another argument 'hates the dole scroungers versus lefty liberal snowflakes', get away from your desk and get outside, enjoy a few minutes of sun, take a few deep breaths and appreciate everything you have.

I see them drinking 2 litres of Devils Bit with their Ma's dole money when it's sunny.

For Forks Sake

If only Willie had a chance government so that he could implement his proposals...oh wait....

Your Face

This will go well with the breakfast roll brigade.
They're the only ones who really work, you know.

Hal3000

KikiLaRue wrote: »

It's a beautiful day out lads. Like seriously, it's stunning.

Just a thought, instead of getting into yet another argument 'hates the dole scroungers versus lefty liberal snowflakes', get away from your desk and get outside, enjoy a few minutes of sun, take a few deep breaths and appreciate everything you have.

I enjoyed the sun thank you very much. I also want to keep enjoying it without worrying about rogue little toerags who think they can do and act how they please. I don't care about people on the Dole, I just want consequences for Mammy's little scumbag when he decides to wreck the place !

klaaaz

Yet again, soundbites *win* over reality. If you want toerags from the lower class as well as the middle/upper class punished you need to pay more personal taxes to make it happen. Its frigging obvious nothing will change when the state cannot afford to lock up the many toerags in the country, you need to pay more personal taxes or keep grabbing your individual personal tax cuts at the detriment of overall society.

Hal3000

klaaaz wrote: »

Yet again, soundbites *win* over reality. If you want toerags from the lower class as well as the middle/upper class punished you need to pay more personal taxes to make it happen. Its frigging obvious nothing will change when the state cannot afford to lock up the many toerags in the country, you need to pay more personal taxes or keep grabbing your individual personal tax cuts at the detriment of overall society.

Yet we can afford 3 oh no wait possibly 5 billion for rural broadband... Don't give me this the state can't afford cobblers. The state can afford but won't, because they can't earn from it.

klaaaz

Hal3000 wrote: »

Yet we can afford 3 oh no wait possibly 5 billion for rural broadband... Don't give me this the state can't afford cobblers. The state can afford but won't, because they can't earn from it.

That's the state (FFG) awarding dodgy contracts to their pals like the Maltese Falcon, are we allowed here to say who?

Overall, on the day to day running of the country there has to be personal taxation to run essential services just like our Scandinavian cousins do. Apparently some here don't care while some of them are living in their gated communities blocked off from the outside world, lower individual taxation has caused a huge upsurge in the costs for criminal incarceration, childcare costs and hospital costs amongst many other things like school places.

Hal3000

klaaaz wrote: »

That's the state (FFG) awarding dodgy contracts to their pals like the Maltese Falcon, are we allowed here to say who?

Overall, on the day to day running of the country there has to be personal taxation to run essential services just like our Scandinavian cousins do. Apparently some here don't care while some of them are living in their gated communities blocked off from the outside world, lower individual taxation has caused a huge upsurge in the costs for criminal incarceration, childcare costs and hospital costs amongst many other things like school places.

So tell me this ? How come New York we're able to do it ? Huge drops in crime rates!! Your attitude is typical Irish... We can't !! Ireland is different - what about taxes ??? You know why this happens ? Because we are weak and our politican's know that we'll just keep accepting screw up after screw up after screw up... No money to build prisions.. what a line to swallow.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah, trial it as an idea.

How would you know whether it worked or not? What would success look like?

El_Duderino 09

Hal3000 wrote: »

Who cares ? Get it through and it'll be still around when he's gone. Agree, the bleeding hearts will be on soon about social inequality - understanding the issues firstly. I'm all for equality but deviant behaviour needs consequences.

You're all for equality. Ok. How much of your income would you think is fair to take away if your child broke a window for example? 20% off the top of your wages for 6 months maybe?

klaaaz

Hal3000 wrote: »

So tell me this ? How come New York we're able to do it ? Huge drops in crime rates!! Your attitude is typical Irish... We can't !! Ireland is different - what about taxes ??? You know why this happens ? Because we are weak and our politican's know that we'll just keep accepting screw up after screw up after screw up... No money to build prisions.. what a line to swallow.

Hi Hal3000, Ireland through FFG has pursued an individual cut in personal tax rates below the EU norm over the past couple of decades. To put a crim in prison, it costs money from taxes, and yes it costs money to build another prison hence none have been built since the year 2000 I think. In that time the population has expanded by nearly a million. The broadband contract to the FFG mates is over a period of least a decade if I recall.

Hal3000

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're all for equality. Ok. How much of your income would you think is fair to take away if your child broke a window for example? 20% off the top of your wages for 6 months maybe?

That's just ridiculous. I would expect I should have to pay for the damage. You'll argue that that's not fair right ?

Danzy

I'm not adverse to the idea but I'd also like to see Willie O'Deas kids have their wages docked for their fathers anti societal behaviour.

El_Duderino 09

Hal3000 wrote: »

That's just ridiculous. I would expect I should have to pay for the damage. You'll argue that that's not fair right ?

You didn’t say that to begin with. Not much of a problem for wealthy parents.

What if your child engages in antisocial behaviour how would you quantify the fine? What’s the going rate for frightening an old woman by loitering outside her house?

MrFresh

The problem with this policy, aside from the constitutional issue of punishing someone for another's crime, is that it works on the premise that parenting alone is responsible for juvenile delinquency. This is a simplistic and incorrect understanding of the issue. That's not to say that parental influence shouldn't be considered. Certainly if a parent is found to be contributing to the delinquency of their child it needs to be examined. But jumping straight to fines is just not the answer. Some people just don't have the knowledge or capability of providing the parenting needed. They need help.

El_Duderino 09

MrFresh wrote: »

The problem with this policy, aside from the constitutional issue of punishing someone for another's crime, is that it works on the premise that parenting alone is responsible for juvenile delinquency. This is a simplistic and incorrect understanding of the issue. That's not to say that parental influence shouldn't be considered. Certainly if a parent is found to be contributing to the delinquency of their child it needs to be examined. But jumping straight to fines is just not the answer. Some people just don't have the knowledge or capability of providing the parenting needed. They need help.

I suspect helping parents would be considered “nanny state” but fining parents would be considered great government.

Also, let’s not pretend this is a policy. It’s a headline grabbing sound bite. And it hooked the usual suspects in this thread just as Willy O’Dea knew it would. They fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Ush1

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suspect helping parents would be considered “nanny state” but fining parents would be considered great government.

Also, let’s not pretend this is a policy. It’s a headline grabbing sound bite. And it hooked the usual suspects in this thread just as Willy O’Dea knew it would. They fell for it hook, line and sinker.

There is already huge amounts of help available in terms of state supports to parents.

Pkiernan

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're all for equality. Ok. How much of your income would you think is fair to take away if your child broke a window for example? 20% off the top of your wages for 6 months maybe?

How about the cost of the window?

MrFresh

Ush1 wrote: »

There is already huge amounts of help available in terms of state supports to parents.

Not really. A visit from a social worker once a month, if you're lucky, isn't really huge amounts of help".

El_Duderino 09

Ush1 wrote: »

There is already huge amounts of help available in terms of state supports to parents.

Support in how to parent a troublesome teen? Is there? Like what?

El_Duderino 09

Pkiernan wrote: »

How about the cost of the window?

Sounds good but it depends on income. If you’re wealthy and you pay for a window it might be water off a ducks back. If you’re poor then it’s a much bigger penalty relatively speaking.

How would you quantify something like frightening an old woman by loitering outside her house? Terrorising the community etc?

Ush1

MrFresh wrote: »

Not really. A visit from a social worker once a month, if you're lucky, isn't really huge amounts of help".

They can avail of far more than that. I've seen first hand kids who get paid for psychologist visits, courses, lots of visits from social workers, counselling etc...

MrFresh

Ush1 wrote: »

They can avail of far more than that. I've seen first hand kids who get paid for psychologist visits, courses, lots of visits from social workers, counselling etc...

I've seen plenty who don't.

Ush1

MrFresh wrote: »

I've seen plenty who don't.

Okay.

El_Duderino 09

Ush1 wrote: »

They can avail of far more than that. I've seen first hand kids who get paid for psychologist visits, courses, lots of visits from social workers, counselling etc...

Sounds sensible. How is the impact measured? Does it work?