Dock ASBO kids family dole says TD

Hal3000 · 13-05-2019 10:00PM

klaaaz wrote: »

Yet again, soundbites *win* over reality. If you want toerags from the lower class as well as the middle/upper class punished you need to pay more personal taxes to make it happen. Its frigging obvious nothing will change when the state cannot afford to lock up the many toerags in the country, you need to pay more personal taxes or keep grabbing your individual personal tax cuts at the detriment of overall society.

Yet we can afford 3 oh no wait possibly 5 billion for rural broadband... Don't give me this the state can't afford cobblers. The state can afford but won't, because they can't earn from it.

klaaaz · 13-05-2019 10:07PM

Hal3000 wrote: »

Yet we can afford 3 oh no wait possibly 5 billion for rural broadband... Don't give me this the state can't afford cobblers. The state can afford but won't, because they can't earn from it.

That's the state (FFG) awarding dodgy contracts to their pals like the Maltese Falcon, are we allowed here to say who?

Overall, on the day to day running of the country there has to be personal taxation to run essential services just like our Scandinavian cousins do. Apparently some here don't care while some of them are living in their gated communities blocked off from the outside world, lower individual taxation has caused a huge upsurge in the costs for criminal incarceration, childcare costs and hospital costs amongst many other things like school places.

Hal3000 · 13-05-2019 10:26PM

klaaaz wrote: »

That's the state (FFG) awarding dodgy contracts to their pals like the Maltese Falcon, are we allowed here to say who?

Overall, on the day to day running of the country there has to be personal taxation to run essential services just like our Scandinavian cousins do. Apparently some here don't care while some of them are living in their gated communities blocked off from the outside world, lower individual taxation has caused a huge upsurge in the costs for criminal incarceration, childcare costs and hospital costs amongst many other things like school places.

So tell me this ? How come New York we're able to do it ? Huge drops in crime rates!! Your attitude is typical Irish... We can't !! Ireland is different - what about taxes ??? You know why this happens ? Because we are weak and our politican's know that we'll just keep accepting screw up after screw up after screw up... No money to build prisions.. what a line to swallow.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-05-2019 10:30PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah, trial it as an idea.

How would you know whether it worked or not? What would success look like?

El_Duderino 09 · 13-05-2019 10:39PM

Hal3000 wrote: »

Who cares ? Get it through and it'll be still around when he's gone. Agree, the bleeding hearts will be on soon about social inequality - understanding the issues firstly. I'm all for equality but deviant behaviour needs consequences.

You're all for equality. Ok. How much of your income would you think is fair to take away if your child broke a window for example? 20% off the top of your wages for 6 months maybe?

klaaaz · 13-05-2019 10:42PM

Hal3000 wrote: »

So tell me this ? How come New York we're able to do it ? Huge drops in crime rates!! Your attitude is typical Irish... We can't !! Ireland is different - what about taxes ??? You know why this happens ? Because we are weak and our politican's know that we'll just keep accepting screw up after screw up after screw up... No money to build prisions.. what a line to swallow.

Hi Hal3000, Ireland through FFG has pursued an individual cut in personal tax rates below the EU norm over the past couple of decades. To put a crim in prison, it costs money from taxes, and yes it costs money to build another prison hence none have been built since the year 2000 I think. In that time the population has expanded by nearly a million. The broadband contract to the FFG mates is over a period of least a decade if I recall.

Hal3000 · 13-05-2019 10:51PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're all for equality. Ok. How much of your income would you think is fair to take away if your child broke a window for example? 20% off the top of your wages for 6 months maybe?

That's just ridiculous. I would expect I should have to pay for the damage. You'll argue that that's not fair right ?

Danzy · 13-05-2019 11:00PM

I'm not adverse to the idea but I'd also like to see Willie O'Deas kids have their wages docked for their fathers anti societal behaviour.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 07:48AM

Hal3000 wrote: »

That's just ridiculous. I would expect I should have to pay for the damage. You'll argue that that's not fair right ?

You didn’t say that to begin with. Not much of a problem for wealthy parents.

What if your child engages in antisocial behaviour how would you quantify the fine? What’s the going rate for frightening an old woman by loitering outside her house?

MrFresh · 14-05-2019 08:11AM

The problem with this policy, aside from the constitutional issue of punishing someone for another's crime, is that it works on the premise that parenting alone is responsible for juvenile delinquency. This is a simplistic and incorrect understanding of the issue. That's not to say that parental influence shouldn't be considered. Certainly if a parent is found to be contributing to the delinquency of their child it needs to be examined. But jumping straight to fines is just not the answer. Some people just don't have the knowledge or capability of providing the parenting needed. They need help.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 08:17AM

MrFresh wrote: »

The problem with this policy, aside from the constitutional issue of punishing someone for another's crime, is that it works on the premise that parenting alone is responsible for juvenile delinquency. This is a simplistic and incorrect understanding of the issue. That's not to say that parental influence shouldn't be considered. Certainly if a parent is found to be contributing to the delinquency of their child it needs to be examined. But jumping straight to fines is just not the answer. Some people just don't have the knowledge or capability of providing the parenting needed. They need help.

I suspect helping parents would be considered “nanny state” but fining parents would be considered great government.

Also, let’s not pretend this is a policy. It’s a headline grabbing sound bite. And it hooked the usual suspects in this thread just as Willy O’Dea knew it would. They fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Ush1 · 14-05-2019 08:31AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suspect helping parents would be considered “nanny state” but fining parents would be considered great government.

Also, let’s not pretend this is a policy. It’s a headline grabbing sound bite. And it hooked the usual suspects in this thread just as Willy O’Dea knew it would. They fell for it hook, line and sinker.

There is already huge amounts of help available in terms of state supports to parents.

Pkiernan · 14-05-2019 08:48AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're all for equality. Ok. How much of your income would you think is fair to take away if your child broke a window for example? 20% off the top of your wages for 6 months maybe?

How about the cost of the window?

MrFresh · 14-05-2019 09:05AM

Ush1 wrote: »

There is already huge amounts of help available in terms of state supports to parents.

Not really. A visit from a social worker once a month, if you're lucky, isn't really huge amounts of help".

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 09:19AM

Ush1 wrote: »

There is already huge amounts of help available in terms of state supports to parents.

Support in how to parent a troublesome teen? Is there? Like what?

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 09:21AM

Pkiernan wrote: »

How about the cost of the window?

Sounds good but it depends on income. If you’re wealthy and you pay for a window it might be water off a ducks back. If you’re poor then it’s a much bigger penalty relatively speaking.

How would you quantify something like frightening an old woman by loitering outside her house? Terrorising the community etc?

Ush1 · 14-05-2019 09:45AM

MrFresh wrote: »

Not really. A visit from a social worker once a month, if you're lucky, isn't really huge amounts of help".

They can avail of far more than that. I've seen first hand kids who get paid for psychologist visits, courses, lots of visits from social workers, counselling etc...

MrFresh · 14-05-2019 09:47AM

Ush1 wrote: »

They can avail of far more than that. I've seen first hand kids who get paid for psychologist visits, courses, lots of visits from social workers, counselling etc...

I've seen plenty who don't.

Ush1 · 14-05-2019 09:48AM

MrFresh wrote: »

I've seen plenty who don't.

Okay.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 09:58AM

Ush1 wrote: »

They can avail of far more than that. I've seen first hand kids who get paid for psychologist visits, courses, lots of visits from social workers, counselling etc...

Sounds sensible. How is the impact measured? Does it work?

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2019 10:14AM

MrFresh wrote: »

The problem with this policy, aside from the constitutional issue of punishing someone for another's crime, is that it works on the premise that parenting alone is responsible for juvenile delinquency. This is a simplistic and incorrect understanding of the issue. That's not to say that parental influence shouldn't be considered. Certainly if a parent is found to be contributing to the delinquency of their child it needs to be examined. But jumping straight to fines is just not the answer. Some people just don't have the knowledge or capability of providing the parenting needed. They need help.

Typical PC snobbery

These people are too stupid to teach their kids right from wrong so mammy state must step in ( with Joe and Jane middle Ireland tax payer picking up the tab)

Social democracy 101

whisky_galore · 14-05-2019 10:16AM

There should be a national discussion about the issue of lawbreaking and particularly juvenile offenders, put it to a citizens assembly.

Little sh1ts grow up to be the next generation of gangland leaders and lackeys, thieves and murderers.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 10:29AM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Typical PC snobbery

These people are too stupid to teach their kids right from wrong so mammy state must step in ( with Joe and Jane middle Ireland tax payer picking up the tab)

Social democracy 101

I can’t help thinking you’re hedging your bets there. If the state steps in its dreadful nanny state interfering again and the tax payer has to pay for it. If they don’t do it they’re doing nothing again and watching while little scumbags terrorise the poor tax payer.

What should be done and who should pay for it?

Ush1 · 14-05-2019 10:55AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sounds sensible. How is the impact measured? Does it work?

I've seen both to be honest but for me it's important that the parent(s) are recognising issues and at least trying to solve them, even if they can't do it themselves.

Huge amount of parents obviously don't care but it's a tricky issue to be honest. Kids can be all goody goody and have strict parents but it's ultimately their peers which form a bigger influence.

Sort of a chicken and egg thing, parent kids properly and they won't become bad kids, less bad kids mean less good kids being influenced to become bad.

I'm not sure how it's measured but I can tell you it certainly doesn't work for all of them.

El_Duderino 09 · 14-05-2019 11:06AM

Ush1 wrote: »

I've seen both to be honest but for me it's important that the parent(s) are recognising issues and at least trying to solve them, even if they can't do it themselves.

Huge amount of parents obviously don't care but it's a tricky issue to be honest. Kids can be all goody goody and have strict parents but it's ultimately their peers which form a bigger influence.

Sort of a chicken and egg thing, parent kids properly and they won't become bad kids, less bad kids mean less good kids being influenced to become bad.

I'm not sure how it's measured but I can tell you it certainly doesn't work for all of them.

Nothing works for everyone. If it did it would be a perfectly designed system and I don’t think such a thing is likely possible.

Agree re kids and peer groups. Nature and nurture means their environment will have an affect. Parents, peers, social norms in their neighbourhood and lots of other environmental factors will impact the child development.

How much can the government do without intruding on people’s freedom to raise their own children as best they can? Even when their parenting is terrible

MrFresh · 14-05-2019 11:15AM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Typical PC snobbery

These people are too stupid to teach their kids right from wrong so mammy state must step in ( with Joe and Jane middle Ireland tax payer picking up the tab)

Social democracy 101

I never mentioned people being stupid to teach their kids right from wrong. I said some people don't have the knowledge or capability. From the way you talk you'd swear people were born with an innate ability to parent any child. That is stupid. Some people need help. Maybe their child has special needs. Maybe the parent does. Maybe the parent was raised by horrible parents themselves and doesn't know different. The idea that a child can only be a delinquent because of a lack of will or poor intention on the part of their parent is simply wrong.

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2019 11:25AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

There should be a national discussion about the issue of lawbreaking and particularly juvenile offenders, put it to a citizens assembly.

Little sh1ts grow up to be the next generation of gangland leaders and lackeys, thieves and murderers.

"citizens assembly"

Putting this issue in front of a left wing circle jerk is not the most effective plan

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2019 11:27AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I can’t help thinking you’re hedging your bets there. If the state steps in its dreadful nanny state interfering again and the tax payer has to pay for it. If they don’t do it they’re doing nothing again and watching while little scumbags terrorise the poor tax payer.

What should be done and who should pay for it?

Tie welfare benefits to behavioural record

Much tougher law and order policy as well

We've tried the ply them with freebies approach for decades, liberals have failed

Mad_maxx · 14-05-2019 11:29AM

MrFresh wrote: »

I never mentioned people being stupid to teach their kids right from wrong. I said some people don't have the knowledge or capability. From the way you talk you'd swear people were born with an innate ability to parent any child. That is stupid. Some people need help. Maybe their child has special needs. Maybe the parent does. Maybe the parent was raised by horrible parents themselves and doesn't know different. The idea that a child can only be a delinquent because of a lack of will or poor intention on the part of their parent is simply wrong.

No it isn't. People fifty years ago had far fewer resources available in every conceivable sense, yet delinquency was far less prevelent, these people behave poorly for two reasons

1. They get away with it

2. They like it

Gazzmonkey · 14-05-2019 11:31AM

KikiLaRue wrote: »

It's a beautiful day out lads. Like seriously, it's stunning.

Just a thought, instead of getting into yet another argument 'hates the dole scroungers versus lefty liberal snowflakes', get away from your desk and get outside, enjoy a few minutes of sun, take a few deep breaths and appreciate everything you have.

I did that but there's dole spongers & other sub human low lifes outside too

Dock ASBO kids family dole says TD

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