Energy infrastructure

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183556#Comment_119183556

Very well could be the case. Demand for domestic gas use for heating should be close to zero now also.

Then again, if our reserves and energy security were a concern, we wouldn’t have bans on drilling for new gas fields and Government Ministers attempting to block the construction of LNG terminals.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183602#Comment_119183602

Government Ministers attempting to block the construction of LNG terminals

Which ministers would be that be given there is an active planning application with ABP for such a facility with a decision due in Sept

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/an-bord-pleanala-delays-decision-on-shannon-lng-by-6-months-273055

The PfG stated the govt wasn't going to build one but wouldn't stop private parties from doing so

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183638#Comment_119183638

https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/ryan-intervenes-directly-in-senseless-shannon-lng-plan/

The usual suspect.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183556#Comment_119183556

Well that’s true actually.

So we could be importing excess LNG via Moffat, making electricity with this gas, then exporting that electricity back to UK?

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183556#Comment_119183556

GNI have a dashboard similar to Eirgrid.

https://www.gasnetworks.ie/corporate/gas-regulation/transparency-and-publicat/dashboard-reporting/entry-flows/physical-flows/

Looks like the supply from Bellanaboy is constant. For at least the past week there have been significant inflows of gas from the UK (Moffat).

So it looks like the UK has more gas (LNG) than it can store, burn or pipe to Europe. The EU countries are still replenishing their storage. So the UK is shipping gas to Ireland to generate electricity, which we then export back to the UK who then export to the EU allowing them to save a little extra gas that they can use to top up their storage more quickly. Whether this is being explicitly planned or happening solely due to market forces, I don't know. But I'd be surprised if someone on here didn't know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183672#Comment_119183672

Ah he made a submission to the ABP application, ok

He's not the only political figure to do so, 76 others did too.

http://www.safetybeforelng.ie/pressreleases/pressrelease20211026OneAndAHalfThousandCitizensAgainstShannonLNG.html

Markcheese

Our international gas pipelines are one way ,yeah ? So we can't export gas ..

We've effectively no storage ? So we can't store gas..

Why would any private company build a gas terminal here ? If you could the engineering you'd build on mainland Europe - and straight into the European grid ..

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119184324#Comment_119184324

• Moffat interconnector is currently one way UK to Ireland
• We can temporarily store natural gas in the network, in particular in the Moffat pipeline. Though it isn't seasonal storage. Rightfully or wrongfully we rely on the UK's LNG facilities and the liquidity of that market.
• LNG terminals built in Ireland would directly compete with supplies via Moffat, which is why it is largely questionable if we really need LNG terminals.
• There is a proposed project to make changes to the moffat interconnector to allow the gas flow direction to be reversed. If completed a LNG terminal could then export gas to the UK and potentially onto mainland Europe if that was completed. Though really the UK would also need to increase capacity to mainland Europe to really make that feasible.

The irish government seems to be quiet critical of the need for us to build LNG terminals. They believe building a terminal would lead to higher costs to the consumer to cover the cost of building such a facility that is largely not needed.

Apogee

There was an article in last Sunday's SBP on how the CRU is offering "a price discount to any new liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminal to boost security of supply."

https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/regulator-offers-to-incentivise-lng-terminals-to-boost-security-of-supply/

Apparently Varadkar was due to meet with New Fortress Energy who are behind the Tarbert project

A spokesperson for Leo Varadkar says that the Tánaiste will meet New Fortress Energy in the coming weeks to hear about its plans for North Kerry and how they might fit in with the Government’s energy security and climate objectives, if at all.

The spokesperson goes on to say that Mr Varadkar is particularly keen to assess whether the terminal could be adapted for green hydrogen and that he believes there’s real potential for this in the Shannon Estuary.

https://www.radiokerry.ie/news/tanaiste-defends-plan-to-meet-ceo-of-company-behind-shannon-lng-284277

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182690#Comment_119182690

I'm curious, what do you mean by sacrifices?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119184792#Comment_119184792

Leo has said many times he has no interest in seeing a LNG facility there. I know the developers were keen to emphasise that the site "could" be used for hydrogen storage with the right level of outfitting and modifications, no doubt they'll be looking for govt funding for that and to be honest, that would be a smart move

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/lng-terminal-not-right-investment-for-kerry-site-tanaiste/

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/we-need-liquefied-hydrogen-not-lng-tanaiste-684471

https://youtu.be/7h8QU__dpC0

Markcheese

No one is gonna spend 650 million unless they have preferential access to the grid ,and guaranteed pricing ...

And they'd need to someone to provide gas storage , and an someone to upgrade the pipe from here to UK and UK to Europe ..

Sounds like pie in the sky ..

gjim

It's actually interesting or confusing if you look at the figures and consider the arithmetic of annual flows of NG.

Ireland currently consumes 6.3 billion cubic meters (bcm) per year of the stuff - I think this figure is for the whole island but it's difficult to get a definitive statement on-line.

About 60% of this - say 3.8 bcm comes from Corrib. This will be gone in a few years.

About 3 bcm are currently imported over the various interconnectors. I know the numbers don't add up exactly - I'm pulling them from different sources in different units so I'm not surprised there are some discrepancies. Still the numbers are ballpark.

Note the pipelines are not operating at capacity - total capacity is higher, I've seen a number around the 5 bcm mark. At that level, the current pipelines don't have the capacity to meet current consumption without Corrib gas.

However, the capacity of the proposed terminal is 8.2 bcm. This is far more than current domestic consumption - which is bound to decline particularly as 55% of it is used for electricity production and renewables are starting to eat into this share.

It could be that the backers of this project are expecting the interconnectors to be adapted to allow exports, but that seems weird also. In that case it would make more sense to site the terminal somewhere on the European mainland - and avoid all the transit costs - but I guess if they did that, then Ireland would run short of NG in a few years.

There's something not right here.

antoinolachtnai

Dropping gas directly into the grid here would save transit fees from Europe. If you can buy gas anywhere in the world and deliver onto grid in ireland for less than cost of gas from North Sea + transit fees then you will make money. If gas from North Sea / UK suddenly became cheap you would be in trouble but that seems unlikely.

gjim

Sure antoine an LNG terminal in the Shannon estuary makes sense to supply Irish demand.

But why build a terminal with 8.2 billion cubic meter per year capacity for a country that consumes 6.3 bcm per year? And consumption will only fall as multiple GW of renewables are added to the grid over the next few years.

I've googled other LNG terminal projects. For example, the Dutch are building a 12 bcm terminal for just over €1B, while the Croats are building on with 2.6 bcm for €233 million. The one proposed in Ireland is 8.2 bcm and will cost €650 million. I would have thought that a smaller terminal - but bigger than the Croatian one - would make more sense if the aim is to serve local demand and would cost a good bit less.

antoinolachtnai

They might not build it all out. They might not get planning for the whole lot. It certainly would be attractive to ship to GB if there were demand and a technical facility. It is a hedge on the bet.

Gas demand will probably go up before it goes down as coal plants are phased out. It will also get more ‘bursty’, with a lot required when wind is low.

There is so much uncertainty, I can see why they are leaving options open.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119183127#Comment_119183127

We buy gas and energy at market rates. Part of the headache in the EU overall is that gas was viewed as the so-called cheap backup to green sources and the huge surge in prices has left the electricity market in a complete mess. Green energy tends to be snapped up on the market almost instantly at a quick profit to energy generators.

bk

"Note the pipelines are not operating at capacity - total capacity is higher, I've seen a number around the 5 bcm mark. At that level, the current pipelines don't have the capacity to meet current consumption without Corrib gas."

5 bcm was the capacity of the original Moffat pipeline, there is now a second pipeline to Moffat and that pipe is 40% larger then the first.

The two pipelines have a total capacity of about 14 to 15bcm, however they are currently limited to about 8 to 9 bcm due to capacity of the onshore facilities.

8 Bcm is more then enough to supply 100% of ours needs and if we needed more, it wouldn't be too difficult to upgrade the onshore facilities. The Moffat pipes have massive amounts of overhead room.

You might run into issues if one of the pipes was to break and if we were running 100% off Moffat, we would be a small bit short on one pipeline. Having said that, having a seasonal storage facility would solve that issue better then an LNG terminal IMO.

For the most part, we roughly pay the same price for Gas as in the UK, with just a small bit extra for transport via Moffat, otherwise the same. It really doesn't make much difference in terms of price if a LNG ship arrives into a UK terminal or a future Irish one, it will be a similar cost and of course we will need to continue to pay for the up keep of Moffat anyway.

The CRU (energy regulator) has previously said that the 650m cost of building a LNG terminal would of course need to be passed onto the consumer here in Ireland and that it would lead to higher gas prices here!

BTW There is an interesting situation in the UK/Ireland gas market at the moment. We are currently seeing record lows for day ahead gas prices!!!

UK is basically awash with Gas, it has too much then it can currently handle. Their LNG terminals are running at full capacity, there are ships lined up waiting to get into the terminals and the UK is currently exporting all it can over it's interconnectors to Ireland and mainland Europe!

That is why the gas power plants in the UK and Ireland are currently running at full tilt, they are benefittng from very cheap gas and are exporting all they can over the interconnectors to mainland Europe.

Of course the problem is that if you look at futures gas prices for Winter, you see they are extremely high. That is because gas usage goes way up in winter for heating obviously and supply is expected to be constrained then.

The part we are missing in UK/Ireland is not more LNG terminals, it is seasonal storage facilities (non in the UK too). If we had them, we could be filling them with cheap gas now, which would even out high gas prices come demand.

gjim

Storage can be great for smoothing prices and meeting demand variation over the year - although it's more complex than simply as buy-low/use-high. Most supply contracts lock in prices for periods of longer than a season.

But storage alone can't solve Europe's NG issues. The inevitable and imminent loss of imports from Russia - currently about 160 bcm per year - has to be made up somehow with other facilities to import NG. The entire Norwegian output already goes to Europe and it's about 120 bcm. So the conclusion is that Europe will need to find alternative methods of importing NG.

In this regard LNG terminals are the only game in town so they will have to be built and soon, unless we want to continue handing over billions of euro to Putin's repulsive regime. The only question is where in Europe to build them.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196923#Comment_119196923

I don't think there's any question. It has to be Germany that builds them. Until they start constructing a permanent on land terminal, I wouldn't trust them not to backtrack and commission Nordstream II. It's painfully obvious from the map of LNG terminals in Europe who needs to construct one. Ignore the orange ones, they're 'pipe dreams' at the moment.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/liquefied-gas-does-lng-have-place-germanys-energy-future

josip

Speaking of interconnectors, how/why does this situation arise?

https://smartgriddashboard.com/#all/interconnection

Sam Russell

How does the grid dashboard display the solar farm generation? Is it in renewables or 'other'.

Apogee

ESB sign deal with Argan to construct 3x 63.5MW gas-fired plants by end of 2024

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/esb-signs-deals-for-three-gas-fired-power-plants-to-be-built-in-dublin-41745545.html

Cabinet to consider plans for 450MW of temporary generation capacity

A proposal to significantly increase Ireland's electricity supply next year, at a cost of possibly hundreds of millions of euro, will be brought to Cabinet tomorrow by the Minister for Climate Eamon Ryan.

Under the plan, Eirgrid would purchase an additional 450 megawatts of electricity - equivalent to the annual output of a large generation station.

It is understood the plan envisages Eirgrid buying temporary electricity generators, with the cost being recouped from customers over a three-year period.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0613/1304652-electricity-supply-proposal/

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195228#Comment_119195228

Depending 100% on Moffat for our gas needs is fairly risky imho and the CRU agrees with me.

We can’t be depending on a non EU country (with a history vs us) for our gas needs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198181#Comment_119198181

Its not an issue

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198181#Comment_119198181

We depended 100% on Moffat prior to Kinsale opening and at the time there was only one pipe, so no backup if it failed like there is with the two pipeline now (+ one to Northern Ireland).

Fundamentally UK and Ireland are considered a single market for gas. Gas Networks Ireland operates an all island gas network. That means they operate the network in Northern Ireland too. Northern Ireland is reliant on gas from Corrib and from the North South interconnector and gas coming in from Moffat.

Sure, that has become a little more awkward politically since Brexit, but in reality on the ground, it hasn't changed anything and it won't change unless their is a United Ireland!

Sure I don't think we should depend on Moffat 100% long term, but an LNG terminal isn't the answer. Instead we should be investing in:

• Biogas, turn farm waste into Natural Gas
• Hydrogen, use excess wind to generate Hydrogen
• Power to Gas, where Hydrogen doesn't work, use excess wind to generate synthetic natural gas.

That is how we get to true security of supply, if we really need to continue to fossil gas, then we should continue to explore our own gas and oil fields. LNG isn't really improving security of supply, importing gas from abroad, have we not learned our lesson from Ukraine yet!

True security of supply, is being truly independent of all foreign supply.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198438#Comment_119198438

I'd argue it's more about diversification, don't put all your eggs in one basket ,

Gas is really the only show in town at the moment to back up renewables , but having some gas of our own , pipelines and having a degree of storage would all help with security of supply,

I'd love to see the full figures for bio-gas - the plants usually work best with a combination of crops and farmwastes

But there can be a lot of energy used in the growing , harvesting and transport of crops and transport of farm wastes- plus returning the digestate to the farm

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198438#Comment_119198438

Investment requires a coherent plan. Do we actually have one of those as it's not obvious? Regardless of what route we go we are talking about options that are the best part of a decade away.

gjim

Biogas is a bit of a curate's egg - where it comes purely from agricultural waste, which would naturally leak methane into the atmosphere if disposed of in the normal way, it's an easy win. The issue in that case is whether it can be done at a scale which would make it economic.

Biofuels, where crops are grown specifically to provide the feedstock for producing methane or ethanol, are generally a terrible idea. In the US - the Renewable Fuel Standard which requires the addition of bio-ethanol to all petrol sold - actually increases CO2 emissions over extracting, processing and consuming petrol/gasoline. And that's before you count the cost of government subsidies used by farmers to grow the corn - money which could be used for actually useful emissions reduction initiatives. Same with burning wood pellets for electricity - a tech supported in Germany for example - is awful from an environmental point of view.

In terms of synthetic methane from hydrolysis - it seems to me to make more sense than hydrogen as you can use all the existing infrastructure without modification to distribute and consume it. And it's equally CO2 neutral as hydrogen. NG leakage from infrastructure is a thing but even accounting for that (and hydrogen isn't harmless in that regard either) if all NG was produced in this way, the emissions reductions would be huge.

But (like with hydrogen), I can't see it working in terms of current finances. The auction prices achieved for wind and solar mean that consuming carbon-free electricity to store energy in the form of methane (or hydrogen) is phenomenally expensive when you take into account the round-trip energy losses involved.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199985#Comment_119199985

Petrol is now 10% ethanol in Ireland. Bad for a lot of older engines and if it's still coming from displacing food supplies then an even worse idea with the looming world food shortages.