Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Energy infrastructure

16667697172112

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Leo has said many times he has no interest in seeing a LNG facility there. I know the developers were keen to emphasise that the site "could" be used for hydrogen storage with the right level of outfitting and modifications, no doubt they'll be looking for govt funding for that and to be honest, that would be a smart move



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    No one is gonna spend 650 million unless they have preferential access to the grid ,and guaranteed pricing ...

    And they'd need to someone to provide gas storage , and an someone to upgrade the pipe from here to UK and UK to Europe ..

    Sounds like pie in the sky ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    It's actually interesting or confusing if you look at the figures and consider the arithmetic of annual flows of NG.

    Ireland currently consumes 6.3 billion cubic meters (bcm) per year of the stuff - I think this figure is for the whole island but it's difficult to get a definitive statement on-line.

    About 60% of this - say 3.8 bcm comes from Corrib. This will be gone in a few years.

    About 3 bcm are currently imported over the various interconnectors. I know the numbers don't add up exactly - I'm pulling them from different sources in different units so I'm not surprised there are some discrepancies. Still the numbers are ballpark.

    Note the pipelines are not operating at capacity - total capacity is higher, I've seen a number around the 5 bcm mark. At that level, the current pipelines don't have the capacity to meet current consumption without Corrib gas.

    However, the capacity of the proposed terminal is 8.2 bcm. This is far more than current domestic consumption - which is bound to decline particularly as 55% of it is used for electricity production and renewables are starting to eat into this share.

    It could be that the backers of this project are expecting the interconnectors to be adapted to allow exports, but that seems weird also. In that case it would make more sense to site the terminal somewhere on the European mainland - and avoid all the transit costs - but I guess if they did that, then Ireland would run short of NG in a few years.

    There's something not right here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Dropping gas directly into the grid here would save transit fees from Europe. If you can buy gas anywhere in the world and deliver onto grid in ireland for less than cost of gas from North Sea + transit fees then you will make money. If gas from North Sea / UK suddenly became cheap you would be in trouble but that seems unlikely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    Sure antoine an LNG terminal in the Shannon estuary makes sense to supply Irish demand.

    But why build a terminal with 8.2 billion cubic meter per year capacity for a country that consumes 6.3 bcm per year? And consumption will only fall as multiple GW of renewables are added to the grid over the next few years.

    I've googled other LNG terminal projects. For example, the Dutch are building a 12 bcm terminal for just over €1B, while the Croats are building on with 2.6 bcm for €233 million. The one proposed in Ireland is 8.2 bcm and will cost €650 million. I would have thought that a smaller terminal - but bigger than the Croatian one - would make more sense if the aim is to serve local demand and would cost a good bit less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    They might not build it all out. They might not get planning for the whole lot. It certainly would be attractive to ship to GB if there were demand and a technical facility. It is a hedge on the bet.

    Gas demand will probably go up before it goes down as coal plants are phased out. It will also get more ‘bursty’, with a lot required when wind is low.

    There is so much uncertainty, I can see why they are leaving options open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    We buy gas and energy at market rates. Part of the headache in the EU overall is that gas was viewed as the so-called cheap backup to green sources and the huge surge in prices has left the electricity market in a complete mess. Green energy tends to be snapped up on the market almost instantly at a quick profit to energy generators.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Note the pipelines are not operating at capacity - total capacity is higher, I've seen a number around the 5 bcm mark. At that level, the current pipelines don't have the capacity to meet current consumption without Corrib gas."

    5 bcm was the capacity of the original Moffat pipeline, there is now a second pipeline to Moffat and that pipe is 40% larger then the first.

    The two pipelines have a total capacity of about 14 to 15bcm, however they are currently limited to about 8 to 9 bcm due to capacity of the onshore facilities.

    8 Bcm is more then enough to supply 100% of ours needs and if we needed more, it wouldn't be too difficult to upgrade the onshore facilities. The Moffat pipes have massive amounts of overhead room.

    You might run into issues if one of the pipes was to break and if we were running 100% off Moffat, we would be a small bit short on one pipeline. Having said that, having a seasonal storage facility would solve that issue better then an LNG terminal IMO.

    For the most part, we roughly pay the same price for Gas as in the UK, with just a small bit extra for transport via Moffat, otherwise the same. It really doesn't make much difference in terms of price if a LNG ship arrives into a UK terminal or a future Irish one, it will be a similar cost and of course we will need to continue to pay for the up keep of Moffat anyway.

    The CRU (energy regulator) has previously said that the 650m cost of building a LNG terminal would of course need to be passed onto the consumer here in Ireland and that it would lead to higher gas prices here!

    BTW There is an interesting situation in the UK/Ireland gas market at the moment. We are currently seeing record lows for day ahead gas prices!!!

    UK is basically awash with Gas, it has too much then it can currently handle. Their LNG terminals are running at full capacity, there are ships lined up waiting to get into the terminals and the UK is currently exporting all it can over it's interconnectors to Ireland and mainland Europe!

    That is why the gas power plants in the UK and Ireland are currently running at full tilt, they are benefittng from very cheap gas and are exporting all they can over the interconnectors to mainland Europe.

    Of course the problem is that if you look at futures gas prices for Winter, you see they are extremely high. That is because gas usage goes way up in winter for heating obviously and supply is expected to be constrained then.

    The part we are missing in UK/Ireland is not more LNG terminals, it is seasonal storage facilities (non in the UK too). If we had them, we could be filling them with cheap gas now, which would even out high gas prices come demand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    Storage can be great for smoothing prices and meeting demand variation over the year - although it's more complex than simply as buy-low/use-high. Most supply contracts lock in prices for periods of longer than a season.

    But storage alone can't solve Europe's NG issues. The inevitable and imminent loss of imports from Russia - currently about 160 bcm per year - has to be made up somehow with other facilities to import NG. The entire Norwegian output already goes to Europe and it's about 120 bcm. So the conclusion is that Europe will need to find alternative methods of importing NG.

    In this regard LNG terminals are the only game in town so they will have to be built and soon, unless we want to continue handing over billions of euro to Putin's repulsive regime. The only question is where in Europe to build them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I don't think there's any question. It has to be Germany that builds them. Until they start constructing a permanent on land terminal, I wouldn't trust them not to backtrack and commission Nordstream II. It's painfully obvious from the map of LNG terminals in Europe who needs to construct one. Ignore the orange ones, they're 'pipe dreams' at the moment.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/liquefied-gas-does-lng-have-place-germanys-energy-future



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Speaking of interconnectors, how/why does this situation arise?

    https://smartgriddashboard.com/#all/interconnection




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    How does the grid dashboard display the solar farm generation? Is it in renewables or 'other'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    ESB sign deal with Argan to construct 3x 63.5MW gas-fired plants by end of 2024

    Cabinet to consider plans for 450MW of temporary generation capacity

    A proposal to significantly increase Ireland's electricity supply next year, at a cost of possibly hundreds of millions of euro, will be brought to Cabinet tomorrow by the Minister for Climate Eamon Ryan.

    Under the plan, Eirgrid would purchase an additional 450 megawatts of electricity - equivalent to the annual output of a large generation station.

    It is understood the plan envisages Eirgrid buying temporary electricity generators, with the cost being recouped from customers over a three-year period.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0613/1304652-electricity-supply-proposal/

    Post edited by Apogee on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,735 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Depending 100% on Moffat for our gas needs is fairly risky imho and the CRU agrees with me.

    We can’t be depending on a non EU country (with a history vs us) for our gas needs.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    We depended 100% on Moffat prior to Kinsale opening and at the time there was only one pipe, so no backup if it failed like there is with the two pipeline now (+ one to Northern Ireland).

    Fundamentally UK and Ireland are considered a single market for gas. Gas Networks Ireland operates an all island gas network. That means they operate the network in Northern Ireland too. Northern Ireland is reliant on gas from Corrib and from the North South interconnector and gas coming in from Moffat.

    Sure, that has become a little more awkward politically since Brexit, but in reality on the ground, it hasn't changed anything and it won't change unless their is a United Ireland!

    Sure I don't think we should depend on Moffat 100% long term, but an LNG terminal isn't the answer. Instead we should be investing in:

    • Biogas, turn farm waste into Natural Gas
    • Hydrogen, use excess wind to generate Hydrogen
    • Power to Gas, where Hydrogen doesn't work, use excess wind to generate synthetic natural gas.

    That is how we get to true security of supply, if we really need to continue to fossil gas, then we should continue to explore our own gas and oil fields. LNG isn't really improving security of supply, importing gas from abroad, have we not learned our lesson from Ukraine yet!

    True security of supply, is being truly independent of all foreign supply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'd argue it's more about diversification, don't put all your eggs in one basket ,

    Gas is really the only show in town at the moment to back up renewables , but having some gas of our own , pipelines and having a degree of storage would all help with security of supply,

    I'd love to see the full figures for bio-gas - the plants usually work best with a combination of crops and farmwastes

    But there can be a lot of energy used in the growing , harvesting and transport of crops and transport of farm wastes- plus returning the digestate to the farm

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Investment requires a coherent plan. Do we actually have one of those as it's not obvious? Regardless of what route we go we are talking about options that are the best part of a decade away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    Biogas is a bit of a curate's egg - where it comes purely from agricultural waste, which would naturally leak methane into the atmosphere if disposed of in the normal way, it's an easy win. The issue in that case is whether it can be done at a scale which would make it economic.

    Biofuels, where crops are grown specifically to provide the feedstock for producing methane or ethanol, are generally a terrible idea. In the US - the Renewable Fuel Standard which requires the addition of bio-ethanol to all petrol sold - actually increases CO2 emissions over extracting, processing and consuming petrol/gasoline. And that's before you count the cost of government subsidies used by farmers to grow the corn - money which could be used for actually useful emissions reduction initiatives. Same with burning wood pellets for electricity - a tech supported in Germany for example - is awful from an environmental point of view.

    In terms of synthetic methane from hydrolysis - it seems to me to make more sense than hydrogen as you can use all the existing infrastructure without modification to distribute and consume it. And it's equally CO2 neutral as hydrogen. NG leakage from infrastructure is a thing but even accounting for that (and hydrogen isn't harmless in that regard either) if all NG was produced in this way, the emissions reductions would be huge.

    But (like with hydrogen), I can't see it working in terms of current finances. The auction prices achieved for wind and solar mean that consuming carbon-free electricity to store energy in the form of methane (or hydrogen) is phenomenally expensive when you take into account the round-trip energy losses involved.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Petrol is now 10% ethanol in Ireland. Bad for a lot of older engines and if it's still coming from displacing food supplies then an even worse idea with the looming world food shortages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,735 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Oh well if you say it’s not an issue dacor then it’s not an issue 🙄

    The naivety is strong with this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,735 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Im not advocating LNG at all by the way.

    Im merely pointing out that depending on the UK for 100% gas supply is a bad idea despite what dacor says.

    We should be exploring our own waters for alternative fossil fuel supplies while we need them.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,486 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    E10 also gives increased fuel consumption - between 5% and 10% so not a useful way of combating carbon emissions.

    It increases the cost of the fuel with no benefit, while use of sugar to produce it is not a good thing for the environment or food supply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Yup ... And one advantage of not having any gas export facilities is that whatever has is produced off our coast is staying here - oil can be tankered to wherever - gas not so much -

    But because of that big oil companies will also be slow to invest in gas production .. mayo only really came on stream as kinsale/ ballycotton went off , I've no idea is there a replacement gas field/ well for mayo as it starts to run down ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Apparently the Dept are due to start a consultation on a hydrogen strategy which may also address export. How long before anything concrete comes from this is an another question.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Rather than trying to export the hydrogen, would we better off installing AC wind turbines and exporting the electricity direct to Europe via interconnectors ? ..let the end user produce and store the hydrogen at source ..

    Obviously this would be for huge multi gigawat floating schemes ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The problem with that is that it's not ideal for our security of supply. There are no guarantees that if things got tight at a European-level that we'd get what we needed back over the interconnector. Having our own hydrogen means we can sleep easy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Honestly ,at the scale of production we could be at , I could see a largely domestic wind industry ,with some export , And a high voltage DC export energy sector ... Straight to Europe , and with the gov taking a royalty /fee - think Norway and gas platforms -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Gas can only be turned down so much production wise, when it's flowing it must stay flowing or damage the whole thing.


    Trying to save a bit might finish a gas Field.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Norway can do that because 92% of their electricity comes from hydro and they have pipes to their own gas fields for further security of supply.

    I agree that we should be looking to export the wind generated power if there was a business case for it. But we also need to secure our own energy independence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Energy independence will only come about by having an array of energy sources.


    Many of those will be fossil fuels and in a wider Western European context, include Nuclear.


    Nuclear is woefully expensive but if the French want it, we should avail of it.

    No one thing provides the answer



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Report today that 29% of the population are 'in energy poverty' in a very arbitrary definition of energy poverty.

    People use energy in a very wanton fashion.

    Clothes dryers are used instead of a clothes horse or washing line. An extra woolly jumper might save turning on the heating when it is a little chilly. Walking the kids to school rather than take the 4 by 4 armoured child carrier. Cycling to work rather than sitting in the everyday traffic grid-lock. Working from home or in the local web-hub to save the commute at least a few days a week. Not making unnecessary journeys was a cry to stop people going out is a storm, but it applies to those short of diesel or petrol for the family banger.

    The word THRIFT has fallen out of use in living memory. Living within one's means is a concept that is also falling out of use. Repair rather than replace is also a strategy that has fallen away as repair costs frequently exceed replacement cost.

    We need to reassess our way of life to reduce our consumption as a way to reduce global warming. Moving from a diesel car to an EV does not do much to save the planet.

    There is no planet 'B'



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There appears from looking at the Eirgrid dashpot that coal is kept at about 5% of power generation.

    Is there a reason why this is not stopped altogether because gas can cope with all we need when the wind refuses to blow, and can shut down when the wind does blow strongly? Why does coal resolutely continue to supply our base need?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Open to correction but I don't think they'll be shutting down Moneypoint until additional capacity comes online for redundancy sake. It is next for the chop but not just yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,850 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    David McWilliams had a very good podcast about our energy needs during the week. The engineer who he interviewed came across brilliantly i thought

    Post edited by spacetweek on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It was announced some time ago that the closure date is 2025.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    That's surely being extended now, though it might not be as politically expedient as power cuts.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, that changed

    TÁNAISTE Leo Varadkar told the Dáil that the State needs Tarbert Island power plant and its sister station of Moneypoint across the Shannon Estuary to keep operating indefinitely amid growing concerns over energy security.

    His comments sound a stay of execution for the oil-burning electricity plant at Tarbert and the coal-burning generator plant in Moneypoint which were slated for closure in 2023 and 2025, respectively, in line with CO2 emission-reduction targets.

    It’s an about-face on the fossil-fuel burning energy sector at a time of heightened fears over everything from rising energy prices to the security of the State’s energy supply.




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Closing oil and coal stations is only tangentially because of CO2 savings. The plants are not part of the binding national targets. They will close when they are no longer economically viable overall because of the high cost of carbon allowances and other costs, in tandem with alternatives being available.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Both are extremely useful because of their store of fuel , and both could be operated minimally- which could help have to have them available to the grid longer -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    This is one of the potential projects not captured by the infographics above


    https://shelmalereoffshorewindfarm.com/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    First offshore project for the north west:

    Ireland’s largest fishing industry organisation, the Killybegs Fishermen’s Organisation (KFO), is to become a partner in a major floating windfarm project that could see billions of euro invested off the coast of Donegal. The organisation signed a memorandum of understanding in recent days with Swedish renewable energy developer Hexicon to advance a massive two gigawatt project located 50km to 80km off the coast.

    The proposed energy project, which would likely require investment of at least €2bn over a number of stages, would feed into the national grid – but could also potentially be used to generate green hydrogen to fuel the Killybegs’ fishing fleet. Hexicon and the KFO intend to apply for a Marine Area Consent (MAC) under the new Marine Area Planning Act by 2025 with a view to building the first 1GW phase of the project by 2027.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fishermens-group-signs-up-to-huge-windfarm-and-green-hydrogen-plan-41786122.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    A few bits and pieces over past weeks or so. Codling Wind Park has submitted its application for a Maritime Area Consent (MAC) to the Government:

    Construction of GNI biomethane injection facility to start next summer in Mitchelstown:

    Notification of public consultation on ESB Celtic Offshore project in today's papers. Details of Celtic One (800MW Fixed off Cork/Waterford) previously mentioned here but Celtic Two (800 MW Floating off Cork) is new info.

    https://www.celticoneoffshorewind.ie/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Agreement between EU states reached last night will see the following

    • a 2035 phase-out of new fossil fuel car sales, including a law requiring new cars sold in the EU to emit zero CO2 from 2035. That would make it impossible to sell internal-combustion engine cars.
    • a multibillion-euro (59 billion) fund to shield poorer citizens from CO2 costs.
    • a new EU carbon market to impose CO2 costs on polluting fuels used in transport and buildings, though they said it should launch in 2027, a year later than initially planned.
    • reforms to the EU's current carbon market, which forces industry and power plants to pay when they pollute.
    • Countries accepted core elements of the commission’s proposal to reinforce the market to cut emissions 61 per cent by 2030, and extend it to cover shipping. 

    As regards hybrids and alternative fuels, it was stated "hybrids did not deliver sufficient emissions cuts and alternative fuels were prohibitively expensive."




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    And still no sign of the required MPA's from the current government - you would think the current mess with ABP would wise them up a bit on such matters....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Couple of reports in papers over past months with owners of Barryroe complaining that Minister is stalling on a decision to allow them to drill an appraisal well. Presumably the current energy crisis means it remains an attractive proposition, despite the long history of dead ends.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/providence-eyes-new-name-as-oil-field-plans-face-delay-41805159.html



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Providence are gas, excuse the pun. They've stated in an article in April they expect the decision in July. Its July now, so 🤷‍♂️

    I guess there should be something by the end of the month.

    Will be fun to see the avid supporters of the Barryroe gas react when they see it'll be the mid-2030's before any gas extraction takes place (if at all) and even then there's only about 3/4 years of current consumption in that field. A major source it ain't.

    Providence are primarily interested in the oil and have only a passing interest in the gas field there as there's not much profit in it for them.

    In addition, I don't think much, if any, of the oil will even make it onshore as they are planning to extract directly into storage vessels and not pipe to shore.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    If they did start piping oil, would that make it the first commercial oil extracted from Irish territory?



Advertisement