Energy infrastructure

Some more numbers coming from the EU announcement

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/four-eu-countries-increase-offshore-wind-power-capacity-tenfold-2022-05-17/

Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark on Wednesday pledged to build at least 150 gigawatts (GW) of offshore wind capacity in the North Sea by 2050 

300gw total offshore planned by 2050

Pushing to get planning applications down from 10 years to under 1 year

Good luck Ireland on the last one lol ;)

Markcheese

just Ireland could probably do 150 gw of DC floating offshore wind , and DC power cables to export the stuff, and if the eu is paying then happy days - I also reckon the Irish state should be either taking a royalty.. the tech would probably be danish - the towers and steel Spanish , the ships to errect them dutch , and all based out of Irish ports ,

Money circulating in the eu rather than half a billion a day or what ever going to Russia ..

josip

I think it's just over a billion a day for oil and gas

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119083120#Comment_119083120

Doubling down on the Russian Gas and coal dependent German model of wind/solar will see us threw....🙄



Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119082436#Comment_119082436

This would be the Germany whose grid is heavily dependent on Russian Gas and Coal. The wind nuts really fit the definition of insanity!!

Markcheese

It's interesting how entrenched we are in our positions - I still seriously question solar , apart from home / domestic use .. and when I look at home much capacity Germany has while having to bring on more lignite capacity ...

Others can't accept wind as part of a grid system.. I'm intrigued to see where + how much more can be gotten in the north sea ..

And there are cheer leaders for both ...

I suppose Germany in particular bet big on solar and local wind , backed big time by Russian gas .. blinkers .. like the rest of us ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084686#Comment_119084686

I don't know about others, but I'd be of the opinion that the more renewable sources, the better, be they wind,solar, hydro, wave, tidal geothermal and so on. Same goes for interconnectors and for storage options (hydrogen, flywheels, various battery types, pumped storage etc).

No single renewable can meet the grid needs except in very limited circumstances e.g. Hydro in Norway, geothermal in Iceland.

Even before renewables exploded the risk of generation was spread across oil, coal, gas & peat.

Eggs & baskets applies

That being said, our best renewable source is wind, followed by solar so the share will be applied based on this.

Spain is a good example of another route where solar is their best renewable and so will be their largest source.

josip

I think we have to disconnect the Russian invasion of Ukraine from Germany's domestic energy policy.

The poor Germans, god love their naivety, thought they were playing a game of energy provisioning. They thought they were playing with a teammate who owned the game, but they turned out to be an opponent who was actually playing a geopolitical power conquest game.

The Germans might have actually done well at the game if the rules had remained the same as they thought at the start. But they didn't. Using gas to transition from lignite+nuclear to wind+solar+storage+interconnectivity is a perfectly ok strategy if you have a reliable supplier of gas.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084852#Comment_119084852

I don't think you can disconnect the two , ( although there may be disconnection involved at sometime )

This latest surge in aggression wasn't out of the blue , or the first time Russia explicitly threatened or even used energy as a lever ... Poland and Finland and the Baltics have made moves since 2014 to not be completely dependant -

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084686#Comment_119084686

I know we've been through this before I think but instead of going over the pros and cons of solar, if you have questions about solar just look at it's growth trajectory globally.

We have much longer time-series to look at than most would expect. For example, this article shows solar PV deployment growth since 1980. New solar deployment has been fairly consistently doubling every three years over the last 40 years (except for a mad spurt between 2008 and 2014 where the rate was double that again).

So where is solar now? Last year 185GW of new solar PV capacity was deployed globally. The maths are clear - unless the 40 year trend trend suddenly collapses, many different experts have independently predicted global deployment of at least 1TW new capacity per year from 2030. This isn't a particularly brave prediction - it just relies on the solar industry to keep doing what it's already been doing for 4 decades. Manufacturers and businesses, the article name-checks Tongwei for example, are already gearing up for this level of output and building the factories needed to support this level of output.

To put 1TW new capacity per year into perspective, globally there is about 8TW of operating generation capacity. Now admittedly the lower capacity factor of solar means you probably need at least 2GW of solar to produce the same energy per year as 1GW from the conventional mix, but still.

Solar is already the cheapest form of renewable generation in most of the world - it overtook wind in this regard about 6 years ago. When factories are pumping out 8 times as many panels (by 2030), it will even cheaper.

You'd have to be mad to bet against solar being a key component of the future electricity market.

Markcheese

I don't doubt solars instillation figures , or it's name plate capacity - what I'm doubting is it's production in northern Europe , especially in cloudy,short winter day Ireland ,

I definitely think it makes serious sense in most of Spain , southern France , Morocco ect ect .

I just wonder would the capital be of more use here put towards off shore wind - or more efficiency measures..

Sam Russell

If solar gets to a better than 10 year payback for domestic installations, then I would think that is the point where it becomes acceptable for most house owners.

If a battery cost could be included in that, then it becomes a good investment. It gives a level of power security, and a hedge against energy price inflation. If 20% of households went with this by 2030, coupled with a similar number going to B2 or better BER, that would be transformative in a prospective energy demand from households. Insulation is just as important for home energy consumption.

By 2030, 80% of grid electricity will be renewably sourced, and in summer, the solar will supply those 20% solar homes and with some spare fed back to the grid. Winter not so good, but wind will fill the gaps.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119082455#Comment_119082455

The original plan was to store in disused Kinsale gas field. Even after millions of years natural gas contains some hydrogen.

Other places are salt domes It's not storing hydrogen in expensive tanks, it's storing it in geological features on a massive scale.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119083495#Comment_119083495

Above Germany without renewables

Renewables, If you triple the amount of renewables then most of the time it would cover demand. And a lot of the time it would cover demand and produce a surplus that could be stored or exported.

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086884#Comment_119086884

The whole hydrogen storage topic gets brought up a lot.

Is there any evidence that this is a serious ESB project, with substantial resources being put into rather than some green dreams PR piece?

Apogee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119082619#Comment_119082619

Poolbeg is also being investigated:

https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/undersea-salt-caverns-could-be-used-to-store-hydrogen-gas-in-bid-to-end-fossil-fuel-use-41347162.html

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086997#Comment_119086997

No resources committed yet. We'll probably wait and let the British try it first before committing.

Apogee

FWIW there is a similar project for natural gas in Antrim:

https://www.islandmageeenergy.com/

gjim

The capacity factor for solar PV in Ireland is 10.6% according to a 2006 study. For comparison, in Spain, it's just over 20%. But the cheapness of solar PV means it's still economic in Ireland. In the RESS 1 auctions, the prices for solar PV were on average marginally lower than that for wind:

"EirGrid, which implemented the auction process for RESS 1, said that the average strike price for all projects was €74.08/MWh. For solar projects, it stands at €72.92/MWh."

As an aside, the RESS 1 results were cheaper than the previous REFIT scheme where the price was €80.25 per MWh which doesn't sound much more but it is index linked which makes a big difference.

So even today in Ireland a kWh from a solar PV installation is cheaper than one from an on-shore wind turbine and since solar PV costs have been falling faster than the cost of wind turbines for the last 10 year, I could actually see this price gap expanding in the future.

Apogee

And an interesting recent thread on ESB storage plans:

https://twitter.com/eng4climate/status/1506644821829636102

Markcheese

So are most of the gas fields ect off the Irish coast large hollow chambers ?

Could you just flood the Chambers with water to pressurize the air inside , and drive a turbine with the pressurized air ,

And when electricity is cheap run the turbines the other way to force water out of the wells effectively recharging the battery .. (pressurized pumped storage )

We currently have 2 disused gas fields , and a 3rd soon enough ,( although that may be better used other ways ) ..

Or do gas wells not work that way ?

Markcheese

If the panels ( and their mountings) are so cheap why are all the commercial scale units just pointed south , there'd be a serious value in having a better spread throughout the long summer days ... ( I might drink a gallon of water a week - doesn't mean I appreciate it all being sloshed at me in one go )

Incidentally ,i noticed the mountings for solar panels on flat roofs in Spain - Very low precast concrete feet .. super simple .. didnt notice the aspect though ..

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086997#Comment_119086997

pumping gas into a disused gas field is old hat, other European countries store up to 30% of annual demand

production of cells to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is ramping up. a factory to produce a GW a year only costs about £30m to build

Around Teeside in the UK they already handle enough hydrogen to power our grid.

all the individual pieces use proven off the shelf technology apart from the combusters for existing power turbines and they will be here by 2030 or you can use other ones that can already use 100% hydrogen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086997#Comment_119086997

There's a lot being sorted out with the decommisioning of infrastructure at the Kinsale gas fields. ESB are looking to utilise some of it for hydrogen storage. Public consultation just closed a while back so its early days yet

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/e2c31-public-consultation-on-the-application-for-decommissioning-of-certain-facilities-within-the-kinsale-area-gas-fields/

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/dcf2a-public-consultation-on-application-for-consent-for-site-clearance-surveys-of-the-kinsale-head-including-south-west-kinsale-ballycotton-and-seven-heads-gasfields-by-pse-kinsale-energy-limited-who-currently-hold-the-kinsale-head-petroleum-lease-opl-1-and-the-seven-heads-petroleum-lease/

A load of stuff relating to the decommissioning, if you're REALLY bored, is available below

https://www.gov.ie/en/publications/?q=Kinsale&sort_by=published_date&page=1

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119087533#Comment_119087533

Thanks for sharing those links.

Certainly no plans to use the existing pipeline infrastructure.

"At the time of previous Consent Applications for Kinsale Head and Seven Heads, Section 5 of the Dumping at Sea Act 1996 did not yet apply to “offshore installations” and there were ongoing studies by third parties that might have identified a future re-use of one or more of the offshore pipelines. Accordingly, previous Consent Applications did not address the offshore pipelines and umbilicals. As all studies on potential reuse of the pipelines and umbilicals have now concluded and no further use has been identified for any of the offshore pipelines or umbilicals, these are now the subject of this consent application."

Apogee

The two Kinsale platforms are being decommissioned currently by the Thialf floating crane. You can see a video in the link - it's enormous!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40876763.html

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086009#Comment_119086009

Its amazing that some folk still don't understand the difference between "capacity" and real world "output".

CatInABox

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1527410447275675656?t=AX2U0jtiZMH-TkEfklGG8w&s=19

Another £3 billion added to the cost of Hinkley Point C.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119087889#Comment_119087889

Lol - I know you've argued that it's not necessary to understand the difference between power and energy when discussing electricity infrastructure. But here, you see, is another demonstration on why you'll always get yourself into a confused muddle in these discussions without this basic understanding.

Hint - there's no need to bring your own non-technical makey-uppy terms like "real world output" into the conversation. Reread the post you're responding to and look for the use of the term "capacity factor" - then google it to find out what it means. I think it might be relevant to what you're trying to say. 😉

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119087716#Comment_119087716

The scale of "big engineering" is mid-blowing sometimes - the floating crane makes the gas platform look like a toy.