Obese, and unable to conquer it.

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silverharp wrote: »

its not really , there are plenty of online groups with loads of people who have gone down some kind of elimination route or used tools like intermittent fasting and have turned their lives around. To tell them their wrong for not wanting to say eat processed sugar for example (which isn't a natural food anyway) seems unusually defensive.
Places like the US are getting more obese by the year on the mantra of "everything in moderation" and unsustainable low fat diets which going by supermarket labelling still seems to be what sells to the hoi polloi

Intermittant fasting is different though, you are not telling someone that they can never ever again eat something.

I agree that its possible to eliminate bits and pieces, but sudden mass elimination on something like carbohydrates is not sustainable for someone in the OPs position tbh.

You might get him to eliminate crisps, but not the entire group of which crisps is a part.

But the point is - you dont NEED to be so extreme in your thinking that the magic bullet for weight loss is a very restrictive diet. Its already going to be daunting to restrict the amount of calories being taken in. So adding in another level of restriction would be very off putting to the average person.

I am sure there are people who have success with ultra restrictive diets, I mean, there are people who are vegan by choice. But for someone who is already struggling with food, 2 lots of wholesale restrictions probably wont be sustainable - although its entirely possible that through making small changes over a period of months/years that the same type of dietary restrictions are reached.

The above based on what the OP has already posted. He doesnt seem to be someone for whom a sudden restrictive diet is the answer at all.

santana75

SusieBlue wrote: »

I'm not saying its wrong, I'm saying its unnecessary for success unless there's a very good reason for it.
I'm saying you can include all food groups in your diet & still lose weight & be healthy, that's all I'm saying.

If you want to exclude carbs, sugar, dairy or whatever, knock yourself out. More power to you. But its possible to eat them all & sustain a weight loss.
And for someone who is struggling to stick to ANY form of diet or healthy lifestyle, it might be a more sustainable option than doing Keto or whatever.

But weight loss is not the goal. You can be "skinny fat" and very unhealthy. Its about having a healthy body and mind and sugar loaded foods are not conducive to a healthy body and mind. Its been shown that there is a strong correlation between mental issues and consumption of junk food. Never mind the issues with diabetes and heart disease. I know it sounds reasonable in theory to use moderation and include all food groups, but the truth is most of these groups are man made, they dont come from nature which makes them un natural. And putting un natural substances into your body doesnt work out in the long run. Its like putting diesel into a Ferrari. The more you eat of processed foods the more you will crave them, but the less they are a part of your diet the less your body will want them. Cutting back gradually and then not eating them at all works. Theres no craving and you wont feel like you want them. But if you keep eating sugar loaded foods you will keep that fire burning in your body and you'll never break free once and for all.

ginandtonicsky

....... wrote: »

Its completely unnecessary. You can have a full and varied diet without denying yourself any type of food and be a healthy weight.

This. If I look at the people I know that are naturally slim and don't struggle with their weight, they're the folks with this perspective on food. Nothing is "good" or "bad", food is just a function and if they feel like something they're going to have some of it. Not demonise it in a self-penalising manner that will build the feelings of deprivation and resentment ultimately leading to binge-eating.

I know as someone who did this for YEARS. At my heaviest, I had an active bread ban and was trying low-carb and thought I was a failure if a square of chocolate passed my lips on any given day. And actively bingeing every other day. Binge, starve, the pursuit of perfection and binge again.

Does this sound like a familiar pattern to you, OP?

The hardest thing to me as a former binge eater was always the REALMS of contradictory advice I'd get, similar to how this thread is going, about what I should and should not be eating. Enough people say keto and I'm emptying my fridge and stocking up on eggs and fish for a week. A few votes for Slimming World and I'm online looking for the closest meet-up. And round and round we go. There are 5,678 different diet plans out there and double the amount of opinions on the "right" way to eat and lose weight and in the case of the OP they're about as useful as a chocolate teapot because it's just not about the food. It's about his mindset towards food and his own body image. And changing that before the superficial matter of what he'll eat for breakfast should be tackled.

Cold turkey doesn't work for binge eaters. It's like prying a bottle of gin from an alcoholic. It's about keeping it as simple as possible, not creating "traps" such as "Absolutely no carbohydrates from now on, ever!", making sure his nutritional needs are met while the important brain work is done.

For that, I recommend baby steps, start with something that is achievable this week and will make you feel good about yourself. Go for a walk by the sea, start eating breakfast if you don't usually. Therapy is good, but it sounds like you got the wrong therapist last time which is counter-productive. People, including trained professionals, can be astonishingly ignorant about this stuff. Look for someone trained in eating issues, who understands that it's not as simple as eat less, move more. OA meetings is a good suggestion too, there's also some great podcasts out there, journalling works for me when I'm having a bad day, or simply walking off my emotions instead of using food to deal with them.

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santana75 wrote: »

But weight loss is not the goal. You can be "skinny fat" and very unhealthy.

I disagree. And the use of the current buzz term "skinny fat" is extremely misleading and makes it sound like everyone in good nick physically is healthy - when thats not true at all.

You can be unhealthy at any weight or muscle condition. I know a professional dancer who smokes like a trooper. She has an amazing muscular body, is as strong as anything and pumps herself full of cigarettes and sugar and caffeine. She isnt healthy, in fact, she is putting terrible stress on her body - but she sure looks great!

The OPs big issue is to lose weight. Once he has started to address this he can look at improving both his diet and his general health.

SusieBlue

santana75 wrote: »

But weight loss is not the goal. You can be "skinny fat" and very unhealthy. Its about having a healthy body and mind and sugar loaded foods are not conducive to a healthy body and mind. Its been shown that there is a strong correlation between mental issues and consumption of junk food. Never mind the issues with diabetes and heart disease. I know it sounds reasonable in theory to use moderation and include all food groups, but the truth is most of these groups are man made, they dont come from nature which makes them un natural. And putting un natural substances into your body doesnt work out in the long run. Its like putting diesel into a Ferrari. The more you eat of processed foods the more you will crave them, but the less they are a part of your diet the less your body will want them. Cutting back gradually and then not eating them at all works. Theres no craving and you wont feel like you want them. But if you keep eating sugar loaded foods you will keep that fire burning in your body and you'll never break free once and for all.

For OP, who my posts are directed to, it is. He said:

I need to lose c. 35kg in weight to be at anything approaching a healthy BMI.

Even talking about "skinny fat" is over complicating things and has no relevance to OP. Its just a #fitfam buzz word.

You are also totally jumping the gun, I'm not saying you can eat McDonalds every day & its all gravy so long as its within your allotted calories.

I'm saying you can eat all food groups & have treats like chocolate & so called "bad" foods like bread and still lose weight & be healthy.
This isn't unreasonable or inaccurate advice & I completely stand by what I am saying.

And for the last time, I'm not saying that cutting out food groups doesn't work. I know it does.
It just isn't necessary. There is absolutely no need to cut out pasta etc. from your diet unless there is a medical need (such as celiac disease).

On the contrary I think advising someone who clearly has a poor relationship with food to cut out entire food groups is very bad, dangerous advice.

santana75

SusieBlue wrote: »

On the contrary I think advising someone who clearly has a poor relationship with food to cut out entire food groups is very bad, dangerous advice

I think maybe you didnt get what I was saying. I didnt say to cut out entire food groups, I was saying to cut out processed junk that has lots of sugar, salt and saturated fat added. Maybe we have a different take on what constitutes a food group? The way of eating Im advocating is to eat everything thats natural, carbs, proteins fats, thats fruts vegetables, meat, grains, pulses, beans the whole lot. Its about eating as nature intended us to eat and when you eat as nature intended your body reponds very favorably. Your body and your mind. Its not restrictive in any way, in fact when you eat like this you have the problem of finding it hard to eat enough throughout the day. Theres never a sense of deprivation. But most of us where raised on processed junk which means most people are basically hooked on these foods and they think that if they didnt have them in their life that they would be unhappy. But this isnt the truth. Only when you remove them (gradually) and you get some distance and perspective, that you realise you never needed them in the first place and that you dont crave them and you're actually very happy to have them gone from your life, its real freedom. Its not about counting calories or even trying to lose weight by killing yourself in the gym or starving your body, its about feeding yourself everything you actually need as a human being in terms of food and also in terms of your spirit.

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santana75 wrote: »

But most of us where raised on processed junk which means most people are basically hooked on these foods and they think that if they didnt have them in their life that they would be unhappy.

Really? There was very little processed food available (I mean in supermarkets) when I was a child. And my mother didnt work so she had loads of time to prepare food from scratch - which she did every day.

Do people today feed children a lot of processed food?

I suppose it takes much longer to make food from scratch and both parents tend to be working now so maybe that is the case.

woodchuck

Mod note:

This is a reminder that all posts should remain on topic and contain advice directed at the OP, rather than engaging in general discussion.

JuliusCaesar

On the psychological side, you might want to have a look at Gillian Riley's site https://eatingless.com/books/ . (I've no connection with her)

She's written a couple of self-help books on reducing food intake by psychological methods, looking at stuff like the reasons you overeat etc.

The link above will bring you to the books.

It's a cheap investment!

benneca1

Ok sorry for taking a while. Few issues raised about low carb /keto diet which I will reply to from my experience.
Principle behind it is that it keeps insulin stable which helps conrol hunger. Ie no spikes in insulin means no cravings for sugar ( bit like quitting smoking it gets easier after a few days)
You are not cutting out a whole food group you are keeping them to less than 5% ideally replacing them with green vegetables and natural fat butter olive oil etc.
It is not that difficult after the first few days and if you break out it is hard to restart so it gives you motivation to keep it up.
This diet is the one with slightly more carbs that is used to control type 2 diabetes.
Combined with intermittent fasting and moderate exercise weight drops off.
I am now at 86Kg dropped from a 44 to a 34 waist and BP went from high and needing two medications to normal. There is no one size fits all but the science behind this actually stacks up. Obesity is a hormonal problem caused by insulin control it and you control your appetite hence weight.
Dr Jason Fung writes well about it and there are literally hundreds of kept recipes which are varied and nice. Honestly if you can give it a go it might work,

The_Honeybadger

benneca1 wrote: »

Ok sorry for taking a while. Few issues raised about low carb /keto diet which I will reply to from my experience.
Principle behind it is that it keeps insulin stable which helps conrol hunger. Ie no spikes in insulin means no cravings for sugar ( bit like quitting smoking it gets easier after a few days)
You are not cutting out a whole food group you are keeping them to less than 5% ideally replacing them with green vegetables and natural fat butter olive oil etc.
It is not that difficult after the first few days and if you break out it is hard to restart so it gives you motivation to keep it up.
This diet is the one with slightly more carbs that is used to control type 2 diabetes.
Combined with intermittent fasting and moderate exercise weight drops off.
I am now at 86Kg dropped from a 44 to a 34 waist and BP went from high and needing two medications to normal. There is no one size fits all but the science behind this actually stacks up. Obesity is a hormonal problem caused by insulin control it and you control your appetite hence weight.
Dr Jason Fung writes well about it and there are literally hundreds of kept recipes which are varied and nice. Honestly if you can give it a go it might work,

Is Keto not a variation of the Atkins diet? Tomatoe / Tomato looking at them both. From what I remember everyone that had success on it put all the weight back on once they started eating normally again.

Cutting carbs to 5% is effectively cutting them out imo. If it works then great but it looks very hard to stick to tbh.

benneca1

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Is Keto not a variation of the Atkins diet? Tomatoe / Tomato looking at them both. From what I remember everyone that had success on it put all the weight back on once they started eating normally again.

Cutting carbs to 5% is effectively cutting them out imo. If it works then great but it looks very hard to stick to tbh.

Not quite Atkins is high protein Keto is not. The energy on keto comes from fat. Ideally your own but to keep hunger away you use more hi fat foods eg olive oil avocado cream etc
Different strokes I guess I managed to stick to it. The challenge will be to see if I can keep it off. I think I will because I don't find it too hard I just have to think about what I eat and cook from scratch. Eating out is harder though. Basically thank god for steak and salad . I will come back in a year and give an update.

The_Honeybadger

benneca1 wrote: »

Not quite Atkins is high protein Keto is not. The energy on keto comes from fat. Ideally your own but to keep hunger away you use more hi fat foods eg olive oil avocado cream etc
Different strokes I guess I managed to stick to it. The challenge will be to see if I can keep it off. I think I will because I don't find it too hard I just have to think about what I eat and cook from scratch. Eating out is harder though. Basically thank god for steak and salad . I will come back in a year and give an update.

Keeping the weight off is always the problem with these diets isn’t it. Hope it works out for you.