Displaying NCT, tax disc and insurance on windscreen

Andy From Sligo

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I put it in the top left, and to put it frankly, I never once whilst driving have had to avoid a bollard that I'm looking at in the top left of the windscreen, however on the bottom left I often do look there to avoid a bollard etc...

Don't understand the logic of having it in the bottom left.

fantastic logics there .. that i didnt even think about until I read your reply, but its very plausible !

mikeecho

ExoPolitic wrote: »

it it our job to?...

No. But , I was asking it as a general question, to those that believed from their stool that I was doing something that was punishable by law.

Thanks for your input

lucalux

Just chiming in with my reason for not having them on the bottom-left.. in a good few of my cars I've had to put them in the top-left corner to stop them blocking the heating vents?

Older and smaller cars admittedly.

mikeecho

lucalux wrote: »

Just chiming in with my reason for not having them on the bottom-left.. in a good few of my cars I've had to put them in the top-left corner to stop them blocking the heating vents?

Older and smaller cars admittedly.

I haven't found that to be a problem, but being in the top left can sometimes block a traffic light, if I'm very close to the line

There are pros and cons no matter where the discs are placed.

And no discs can lead to non payment of motor tax.

GM228

mikeecho wrote: »

So despite all the comments.. no-one can show that im commiting an offence that i can be prosecuted or penalised for.

As someone who specialises in this area of law I’ll clarify, it is an offence and yes you can be prosecuted and penalised.

mikeecho wrote: »

wonski wrote: »

I am not 100% sure, but I think not displaying nct disc is an offence, no?

No


The only offence I can find is not having an NCT.
Can't find any ticket for not displaying.
I have it to hand to show if asked.

There are three offences related to the NCT, using a vehicle without an in force test certificate (which is declared as a fixed charge penaly carrying penalty points), failure to produce an NCT certificate and failure to display an NCT disc on the inside of the windscreen.

coylemj wrote: »

Just because it's not a 'ticketable' offence doesn't mean there is no obligation to display the disc.

You can't get a ticket for no brake lights or indicators but try using that as an excuse when the cops pull you over!

Actually you can, contrary to S9 of the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations 1963, an offence under S5 or S11 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and prescribed as a fixed charge penalty by Schedule 3 (1) of the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2011 (Fixed Charge Offences) Regulations 2012.

mikeecho wrote: »

So what's the penalty ? Whats the summons? for non display.. where's the obligation?

I'm not aware of any, for non display of NCT disc.

What offence am I commiting?

See below.

coylemj wrote: »

It took all of 10 seconds to Google 'obligation to display an nct disc' and I found this ......

5. A person shall not use in a public place a vehicle to which these Regulations apply unless there is displayed on the front windscreen of the said vehicle a valid test disc.

S.I. No. 395/1999 - Road Traffic (National Car Test) Regulations, 1999

The 1999 Regulations you linked were repealed years ago, the correct regulation is S3 of the Road Traffic (Display of Test Disc) Regulations 2009:-

Road Traffic (Display of Test Disc) Regulations 2009 wrote:

3. A test disc shall be affixed to the inside of the front windscreen of the vehicle to which it relates. The disc shall be affixed so that it is visible for inspection.

The above Regulations were issued under S11 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, S11 (4) and (5) make it mandatory and create the offence of failing to display:-

Road Traffic Act 1961 wrote:

11. (4) A person shall not use in a public place a vehicle which does not comply with a regulation under this section applying in relation to the vehicle.

(5) (a) A person who contravenes subsection (4) of this section or a regulation under this section shall be guilty of an offence and, where the contravention is of the said subsection (4) and such person is not the owner of the vehicle, such owner shall also, in such cases as may be prescribed, be guilty of an offence.

mikeecho wrote: »

?

Explain. ??

Is there a power of arrest for non display?


AFAIK.
For non display , there is no summons, no fcpn, no power of arrest, no penalty.

Am I right or wrong ?

There is no power of arrest, but yes you can get a summons and a potential penalty of a fine up to €1000 for first offence, €2000 for second, third* or subsequent* offences. (*A third or subsequent offence within 12 months can also carry 3 months imprisonment).

mikeecho

GM228 wrote: »

As someone who specialises in this area of law I’ll clarify.





There are three offences related to the NCT, using a vehicle without an in force test certificate (which is declared as a fixed charge penaly carrying penalty points), failure to produce an NCT certificate and failure to display an NCT disc on the inside of the windscreen.





Actually you can, contrary to S9 of the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations 1963, an offence under S5 or S11 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and prescribed as a fixed charge penalty by Schedule 3 (1) of the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2011 (Fixed Charge Offences) Regulations 2012.





See below.





The 1999 Regulations you linked were repealed years ago, the correct regulation is S3 of the Road Traffic (Display of Test Disc) Regulations 2009:-


The above Regulations were issued under S11 of the Road Traffic Act 1961, S11 (4) and (5) make it mandatory and create the offence of failing to display:-







There is no power of arrest, but yes you can get a summons and a potential penalty of a fine up to €1000 for first offence, €2000 for second, third* or subsequent* offences. (*A third or subsequent offence within 12 months can also carry 3 months imprisonment).

Is that not for not having a valid NCT, rather than non display.

I have a valid NCT.

Check again...

Stephen Strange

mikeecho wrote: »

Is that not for not having a valid NCT, rather than non display.

I have a valid NCT.

Check again...

3. A test disc shall be affixed to the inside of the front windscreen of the vehicle to which it relates. The disc shall be affixed so that it is visible for inspection.

What exactly are you missing here?

This is a regulation made under Section 11 of the RTA 1961. Failure to comply with said Regulation is an offence. The specific wording is about displaying it.

GM228

mikeecho wrote: »

Is that not for not having a valid NCT, rather than non display.

I have a valid NCT.

Check again...

No, it's specifically for display, perhaps re-read the appropriate Regulation and it's title - Road Traffic (Display of Test Disc) Regulations 2009:-

Road Traffic (Display of Test Disc) Regulations 2009 wrote:

3. A test disc shall be affixed to the inside of the front windscreen of the vehicle to which it relates. The disc shall be affixed so that it is visible for inspection.

mikeecho

GM228 wrote: »

No, it's specifically for display, perhaps re-read the appropriate Regulation and it's title - Road Traffic (Display of Test Disc) Regulations 2009:-

Yes.. but there is no penalty for failure to do so.

The only penalty is a summons for not having an NCT.

There are other examples in law that are illegal but carry no penalty, or are illegal but not enforceable.

IE, carrying a knife in public, there is no power of search for a knife .
And then, there is something about those Volvo dump trucks not being road legal, but again, no penalty if brought to court and found guilty.

Lots of flawed laws.

mikeecho

Stephen Strange wrote: »

3. A test disc shall be affixed to the inside of the front windscreen of the vehicle to which it relates. The disc shall be affixed so that it is visible for inspection.

What exactly are you missing here?

This is a regulation made under Section 11 of the RTA 1961. Failure to comply with said Regulation is an offence. The specific wording is about displaying it.

There's no penalty or summons for non display.
Only for not having an NCT cert.

Find me the summons code/wording for non display.. you can't and won't because it doesn't exist.


Edit .. sorry, i may have quoted the wrong person . I'm on a mobile, it's late, and I'm off to bed.

Hopefully someone can provide the summons details for non display by breakfast time.. but I doubt it


Can't find what doesn't exist

GM228

mikeecho wrote: »

Yes.. but there is no penalty for failure to do so.

The only penalty is a summons for not having an NCT.

There are other examples in law that are illegal but carry no penalty, or are illegal but not enforceable.

IE, carrying a knife in public, there is no power of search for a knife .
And then, there is something about those Volvo dump trucks not being road legal, but again, no penalty if brought to court and found guilty.

Lots of flawed laws.

There is a penalty for doing so, in fact there's a penalty for every offence under any of the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 1994 and any cognate regulations.

Not every offence details the applicable penalty within the provision itself, there is a general penalty which covers the entire Act where no specific penalty is prescribed within the section itself. See S102 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 as amended:-

Road Traffic Act 1961 wrote:

102.— Where a person is guilty of an offence under any section or subsection of a section of the Road Traffic Acts, 1961 to 1994 and, apart from this section and disregarding any disqualification that may be capable of being imposed, no penalty is provided for the offence, such person shall be liable on summary conviction—

( a) in the case of a first offence under that section or subsection—to a fine not exceeding € 1,000,

( b) in the case of a second offence under that section or subsection, or of a third or subsequent such offence other than an offence referred to in the next paragraph—to a fine not exceeding € 2,000, and

( c) in the case of a third or subsequent offence under that section or subsection which is the third or subsequent such offence in any period of twelve consecutive months—to a fine not exceeding € 2,000 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

With regards to your point on knives, Gardaí most certainly do have a power of search for such when they suspect with reasonable cause that you may have such, this power is provided for by S16 of the Firearms and Offences Weapons Act 1990 as amended.

With regards your Volvo trucks claim, without knowing more I can't comment on that.

mikeecho wrote: »

There's no penalty or summons for non display.
Only for not having an NCT cert.

Find me the summons code/wording for non display.. you can't and won't because it doesn't exist.


Edit .. sorry, i may have quoted the wrong person . I'm on a mobile, it's late, and I'm off to bed.

Hopefully someone can provide the summons details for non display by breakfast time.. but I doubt it


Can't find what doesn't exist

The wording would be similar to any other traffic offence - it is alleged that an offence has been committed, failure to display NCT disc contrary to S11 (4) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 or something similar.

It most definitely does exist and has been shown to you via the Statute Book.

antodeco

Boards is great. It allows people who believe they are above the law (through zero evidence) to be proven wrong (with valid evidence) and to continue to not accept the evidence as they believe they are above the law. It's the internet version of "Circle of life".

glwaymiko

Top left for me, is the right place..

Isambard

i tend to put mine top centre where they act as a handy sunvisor behind the mirror.

I can't see how a top disc set would block the view more than one at the bottom . Noone driving in the sky usually.

Henry Ford III

I don't display an NCT disc on either of my cars.

I'm not breaking the law either.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't display an NCT disc on either of my cars.

I'm not breaking the law either.

Thats because they are old!
I've an NCT exempt one myself.

Hurrache

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I put it in the top left, and to put it frankly, I never once whilst driving have had to avoid a bollard that I'm looking at in the top left of the windscreen, however on the bottom left I often do look there to avoid a bollard etc...

Don't understand the logic of having it in the bottom left.

.

Hurrache wrote: »

Depends on the car. With some all it's blocking is a view of bodywork.

h3000

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't display an NCT disc on either of my cars.

I'm not breaking the law either.

One is less than 4 years old and the other is pre 1980

blackbox

I'd like to put them at the top, but there is a strong tint there and they would be difficult to see from outside.

jimgoose

I put them on the nearside top of the windscreen, it just seems to suit.

Isambard

Gards usually stand in the road so I suppose they'd prefer you to display on the driver's side.

Wishbone Ash

For a tax disc, it must be on the lower near side. (The reason it must be on the lower side is so that it can be read if fitted to a truck or other high vehicle.

4.—(1) The licence for a vehicle shall be carried on the vehicle at all times when the vehicle is in use on a public road.

(2) The licence shall be carried on the vehicle as follows :—

(a) on a bicycle (other than a bicycle used for drawing a sidecar), tricycle or invalid carriage—in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle in front of the driving seat ;

(b) on a bicycle used for drawing a sidecar—on the near side of the handlebar of the bicycle or the near side of the combination in front of the driving seat ;

(c) on a pedestrian-controlled vehicle—in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle ;

(d) on any other vehicle—

(i) where the vehicle is fitted with a glass windscreen extending across the front of the vehicle to the near side—facing forwards on the near lower corner of the glass and either on the glass or within two inches of it, or

(ii) on the near side of the vehicle, facing towards the near side of the road and not less than two feet six inches nor more than six feet six inches from ground level and between two imaginary parallel lines, the first drawn vertically through the rear-most part of the driving seat or cab (or where there is no such seat or cab, the foot plate) and the second drawn vertically six inches in front of the base of the front windscreen or, where there is no front windscreen, through a point four feet forward from the first line.

(3) Where the licence is carried on a glass portion of the vehicle, it shall be in a weather-proof container and in any other case, the licence shall be carried in a durable weatherproof container with a transparent cover.

(4) The licence shall be carried in such a manner as to show at all times the date of expiry and the particulars set out in paragraph (b) of article 3 of these Regulation.

(5) Where the licence is carried on or adjacent to the windscreen in accordance with sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (d) of sub-article (2) of this article, it shall be clearly visible from the front at all times by daylight, and in any other case, the licence shall be placed and carried so as to be clearly visible at all times by daylight to a person standing at the near side of the vehicle.

GM228

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

For a tax disc, it must be on the lower near side. (The reason it must be on the lower side is so that it can be read if fitted to a truck or other high vehicle.

That was a requirement of Regulations from 1958 which were repealed in 1982, it is no longer the case.

The current Regulations, the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 have no such requirement-

Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 wrote:

4. (1) The licence for a vehicle shall be carried on the vehicle at all times when the vehicle is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place.

(2) The licence shall be carried on the vehicle as follows:—

( a ) on a bicycle, tricycle, or invalid carriage — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle;

( b ) on a bicycle or tricycle used for drawing a sidecar — on the near side of the handlebar of the cycle or the near side of the combination in front of the driving seat;

( c ) on a pedestrian-controlled vehicle — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle;

( d ) on any other vehicle — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle, or where the vehicle is fitted with a transparent windscreen — in a conspicuous position on such windscreen and in such a manner that it shall be both visible and readily accessible for inspection and be so located that it does not obscure the vision of the driver while the vehicle is being driven.

Once it's readily accessible and does not obscure your vision you are free to exhibit wherever you like.

Same applies for an insurance disc.

Neilw

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

For a tax disc, it must be on the lower near side. (The reason it must be on the lower side is so that it can be read if fitted to a truck or other high vehicle.

Which causes an even worse blind spot on a high vehicle.

Andy From Sligo

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't display an NCT disc on either of my cars.

I'm not breaking the law either.

I dont display an NCT on ours... and not breaking the law ... cause its 2016 and not due its first NCT until next year :P (God I never thought I would find myself saying that ever - thanks CU )

Andy From Sligo

GM228 wrote: »

( d ) on any other vehicle — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle, or where the vehicle is fitted with a transparent windscreen — in a conspicuous position on such windscreen and in such a manner that it shall be both visible and readily accessible for inspection and be so located that it does not obscure the vision of the driver while the vehicle is being driven.

bloody ell .. I wouldnt fancy driving a vehicle without a transparent windscreen!! :eek:

Wishbone Ash

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

bloody ell .. I wouldnt fancy driving a vehicle without a transparent windscreen!! :eek:

In some vehicles, albeit rare, the windscreen is literally there to help deflect wind, rather than a window you look through. (The law seems pedantic but has to cover all scenarios).

Bottom left, anywhere else looks wrong and weird imo and I’d have to immediately change it if I bought a car with it elsewhere.

Bought a car recently too new for an nct but the garage put a three disc holder on and it’s annoying me but it’s very hard to find disc holders nowadays so have left it for now.

Isambard

third section is for Padre Pio

Wishbone Ash

Keaton Damp Minefield wrote: »

... the garage put a three disc holder on and it’s annoying me but it’s very hard to find disc holders nowadays so have left it for now.

First world problems!

You could just cut off the 3rd section.