Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

They're anti-semetic according to you.

No, anti-Semitic according to 'The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance'.
You disagree with their assessment, probably because you have anti-Semitic bias yourself.

Please explain.

Well seeing how you explicitly do not condone the targetting of Jews in the West Bank even if they are civilians or children.

If they are indeed your words, then yes that is a grossly anti-semitic viewpoint.
No amount of whataboutery of goalpost shifting will mask that.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

No, anti-(..............)will mask that.

Rubbish. And selective quoting.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109978726&postcount=346


Settlers are generally armed btw.

Danzy

Odhinn wrote: »

Rubbish. And selective quoting.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109978726&postcount=346


Settlers are generally armed btw.

Yet it has no relevance to the thread.

Danzy

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The far left (or perfectly ordinary people) who don’t like Israel could easily be opposed to what are clearly racist and supremacist politics without the need for anti Semitism.

They could be and many are but an awful lot are not.

It is not something I've really seen in the Irish Left but it is a significant problem in the English left and often endemic on the continent.

Snickers Man

markodaly wrote: »

you portray the argument in the same fashion as him.[Tommy Robinson]
Focus on an extreme minority, those zealot fanatics who think God gave them Israel and then proceed to extrapolate the whole conflict/problem is really due to those crazy bible thumping fanatics by painting all Israelis as like that.

That is Tommy Robinson 101. He focuses on extremists in the British Muslim community and some of their misdeeds, such as the grooming of young girls. Then he proceeds to draw a big fat parallel to this type of behavior to a problem with the whole group of Muslims living in the UK.

This is what you have done. So congrats, you and him are more alike than you think.
Again, you brought religion and the bible in the argument, not me.

Without the story of Abraham in the book of Genesis, what possible claim could a bunch of 19th century immigrant farmers from the Russian Empire have for a land that their supposed ancestors (if they could actually prove an unbroken ancestral link going back 2,000 years--by comparison, few Irish people can definitively trace their ancestors back more than 200 years) left in about AD 70?

Are you saying the Biblical claim to Israel is only the preserve of "zealous extremists"? You've pretty much damned an entire country with that.

or maybe your argument (and it's a strong one) is "well the Jews are there now. They've had a state for 70+years. It's impossible just to kick them out at this stage". Bravo!
That's exactly the same argument the Palestinians had before so many of them were expelled in the Nakbah. And official Israeli propaganda has lied about that persistently ever since.
That's not Tommy Robinson speak. That's just a pretty bald statement of fact.

Snickers Man

markodaly wrote: »

Interesting link.

From the link we have the following definitions as Anti-Semitic.

Doesn't take much to be an Anti Semite, according to these bozos does it?

They want to be carefull: the more broadly they define the term, the more perfectly decent people they will encompass with their foul association with racism. And soon the term will lose its power.

That's what happens when you cheapen an argument.

My understanding of what constitutes Anti Semitism is the belief that there is a Jewish "race" that is slightly apart from the rest of the human species, that it is malelovent, conspiratorial, obsessed with the accumulation of wealth and world domination and is irredeemable, so it should be shunned by all decent-thinking people.

It (AntiSemitism) is a repugnant ideology, and certainly not one to which I adhere or for which I have any sympathy. In fact it is based on 19th century pseudo-science that is contemptible and easily disproved by any true scientist or philosopher worthy of the name.

But broadening the term to include critics of Israeli policy is reprehensible, in my opinion, and also counter productive. For the reasons I mentioned above.

Snickers Man

1641 wrote: »

I think it appropriate that one terms encompasses all of these in a sliding scale because they exist on a sliding scale. ....there they are, all on a continuum, a violence inciting and perpetuating continuum.

Also on this continuum and in the same category, are those who give the weaselly excuse that "I am not anti-semitic, anti zionist is comletely different" while going on to demonise Israel among the nations of the earth,

Cobblers!

Zero and one hundred are on a "continuum". They're both integers, one follows on from the other (eventually). But it's nonsense to suggest that somebody who is zero per cent racist has anything in common with somebody who readily admits to being 100 per cent so. But hey, they're on the same continuum! :rolleyes:

1641 wrote: »

People who ....wish to discuss the balance of Israeli actions against these real threats, including the threat to their very existence, do not deserve the description of anti-semitic. Criticism of specific policies, actions, politicians, etc within this context is perfectly valid.
.......

But there are plenty who hide behind the "anti-zionist" excuse who are, at the very least, fellow travellers and enablers of the anti-semites. ...These weasely anti-semites are on the same continuum as the right wing "yobbo" explicit Jew haters - and, indeed, the Jew exterminators of our recent European past.

Thee two paragraphs actually contradict each other. They say on the one hand "Your position is perfectly reasonable" and on the other that making such a reasonable argument raises suspicion that you are a "weasely anti-semite". In other words, that the attitudes and actions of the most extreme opponents of a point of view are applicable to even the most reasonable.

I think Markodaly would call that line of argument "Doing a Tommy Robinson".

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

Rubbish. And selective quoting.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109978726&postcount=346

Not at all.

The poster Nodin in that thread has 88 posts in there where he/she explicitly states that Jews in the West Bank are occupiers so are fair game in being murdered. Regardless if they are women or children.

If this is indeed your posts and sentiment then perhaps you would want to clarify.

Do you see Jews in the West Bank as civilians and condone them being targetting.
It's a simple yes or no answer.

markodaly

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are you saying the Biblical claim to Israel is only the preserve of "zealous extremists"? You've pretty much damned an entire country with that.

No, I am rejecting the notion that Israel is full of religious extremists who take the bible literally, thus can point to God as an excuse when they do bad ****.

It's the Tommy Robinson tactic only he reserves it for Islam and Muslims. Look at the religious extreme wedge of demographic and use to justify the notion that 'all' Muslims are like that.

"well the Jews are there now. They've had a state for 70+years. It's impossible just to kick them out at this stage".

Well, isnt that a fact? Lets say the international community turns around and says that all Jews who emigrated to Israel since 1923 has to leave. Where would these millions go?

And again, the UN general assembly agreed to partition Palestine and create the state of Israel in 1947. It's done and dusted.
We see in today's Ireland what holding onto the past grudges can do to people. It's not healthy.

markodaly

Snickers Man wrote: »

Doesn't take much to be an Anti Semite, according to these bozos does it?

Yeap, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance are a bunch of 'bozos'.
Well done on a carefully crafted rebuttal.

Actually, it is not hard to not be an Anti-Semite. Just don't be one.
The trouble is, too many people are Anti-Semites.

But broadening the term to include critics of Israeli policy is reprehensible, in my opinion, and also counter productive. For the reasons I mentioned above.

They say:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

In other words, you CAN criticise the state of Israel.

However...

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Clearly if one does this they are anti-Semitic.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Again, anti-Semitic. Israel has a right to exist.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Jews are not a hive mind. Again Anti-Semitic.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

See Above. Anti-Semitic.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

100% agree. Jews = Nazi's is a classic trope. Anti-Semitic

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Need I explain? Anti-Semitic


Now if you disagree with one of these definitions, please let me know.

Otherwise, lets put it to bed that people who use these narratives to criticise Jews or Israel are anti-Semitic.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all.

The poster Nodin in that thread has 88 posts in there where he/she explicitly states that Jews in the West Bank are occupiers so are fair game in being murdered. Regardless if they are women or children.

So you're openly ignoring context. Intellectual dishonesty is gas, isn't it.


You'll be able to quote the relevant post then....

Snickers Man

markodaly wrote: »

Yeap, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance are a bunch of 'bozos'.

So we agree on that then. :P

markodaly wrote: »

you CAN criticise the state of Israel.

I have already demonstrated how that tends to play out in practice. Speaking from some considerable experience. An Israeli supporter responds to a legitimate point by saying "Ah but, what do you think about (insert whatever human rights violation you can think of) in (insert some country you may or may not have heard of) and when you reply genuinely that you don't know anything about the situation in that country they say "Aha! Gotcha! You're only interested in digging up dirt about Israelis. Ergo: You're an Anti Semite!"

The irony of this is lost on Israel and its supporters. They usually start off by assuming that critics of their position don't know the facts of history concerning the situation and taking it upon themselves to lecture us all about their supposedly superior knowledge. As indeed you have done throughout this thread. It's a line of argument which effectively says:
"You don't know enough about this topic. Let me educate you"

And then once it emerges that the critic DOES indeed know quite a lot, and certainly enough to rebut or at least question the Zionist/Israeli line the argument changes to:
"How come you know so much about this topic? You could only be motivated by Anti Semitism!"

Bit of a contradiction, don't you think?

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

So you're openly ignoring context. Intellectual dishonesty is gas, isn't it.

Why don't you answer the question?

markodaly

Snickers Man wrote: »

blah blah...

That's lovely.

Can you answer me this. Which one of the definition of anti-Semitism do you disagree with?

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

Why don't you answer the question?

Because I don't recall making a post as you describe it, hence the request for a quote. And because this is just an attempt by you to derail the thread.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

Because I don't recall making a post as you describe it, hence the request for a quote. And because this is just an attempt by you to derail the thread.

This is a thread about anti-Semitism and I am offering you the chance to disavow anti-Semitic statements you made previously.

So again, answer the question. It's a simple yes or no answer.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

This is a thread about anti-Semitism and I am offering you the chance to disavow anti-Semitic statements you made previously.

I didn't make any anti-semetic remarks so how or why would I disavow them? I've given numerous examples of me attacking anti-semites but you've disengenously ignored them and plowed on. You've no interest in honest argument or debate.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

I didn't make any anti-semetic remarks so how or why would I disavow them? I've given numerous examples of me attacking anti-semites but you've disengenously ignored them and plowed on. You've no interest in honest argument or debate.

I asked three times now if you, today right now, condemn the targetting of Jews in the West Bank.

You have avoided the question three times now.
I wonder why?

Ush1

Odhinn wrote: »

Utter bollocks. You might do well to reads up on what Gaza was like before Hamas and before the withdrawal.

You mean the same Hamas who threw the Fatah leaders from the roof of buildings?

Odhinn

Ush1 wrote: »

You mean the same Hamas who threw the Fatah leaders from the roof of buildings?

...that would be them, yes.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

I asked three times now if you, today right now, condemn the targetting of Jews in the West Bank.

You have avoided the question three times now.
I wonder why?

I condemn any attack that's based on the targets ethnicity/religion/race.

Baggly

Mod

Odhinn / Markodaly; this back and forth is tiring and is monopolising the thread.

Odhinn; if you have an issue with a user, dont engage please. Use the report function like anyone else.

Markodaly; if you dont have proof of whatever you want Odhinn to disavow, please drop this.




Also, both of you having the same avatar is confusing. Both of you should change (this last bit is a suggestion rather than a mod instruction).

DelaneyIn

In a major break with the past, the German agency for domestic security — Bundesamt fuer Verfassungsschutz — has published a 40-page report whose title translates as “Antisemitism in Islamism.” The report defines Islamism as a form of political extremism among Muslims that wants to eliminate democracy, and where antisemitism is an essential ideological element.
The report also lists the various extreme Muslim and Islamist organizations that are active in Germany. These include the local Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Hizb Ut-Tahrir, ISIS, the Turkish Milli Görus, as well as Salafists.

New report on antisemitism released in Germany.

"The report defines Islamism as a form of political extremism among Muslims that wants to eliminate democracy, and where antisemitism is an essential ideological element...
...The authors also mention that the way Islamists interpret Islam is contrary to the basic elements of the German constitution concerning the sovereignty of citizens, the separation of state and religion, freedom of expression, and the general equality of all citizens."

https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/04/10/official-german-report-acknowledges-islamist-antisemitism-in-the-country/

Worrying stuff.

Danzy

DelaneyIn wrote: »

New report on antisemitism released in Germany.

"The report defines Islamism as a form of political extremism among Muslims that wants to eliminate democracy, and where antisemitism is an essential ideological element...
...The authors also mention that the way Islamists interpret Islam is contrary to the basic elements of the German constitution concerning the sovereignty of citizens, the separation of state and religion, freedom of expression, and the general equality of all citizens."

https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/04/10/official-german-report-acknowledges-islamist-antisemitism-in-the-country/

Worrying stuff.

Equally worrying that it took so long to be acknowledged.

Anti Semitism is at the heart of the faith.

Igotadose

Not Europe this time. But, the cretin doing the shooting at a San Diego synagogue where 1 person has died and others are still in hospital, claims he was inspired by the Christchurch shooter, who had dealings with the anti-semites in Europe

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/28/us/san-diego-synagogue-sunday/index.html

2 days ago, Trump waded into the 'good people on both sides' lie he said about Charlottesville. Could that have set this latest filth off?

blackwhite

More evidence of Corbyn’s leanings uncovered in the UK today.

https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1123286240084803585?s=21


Either he has some seriously shady views about Jews, or he will happily lend his name to anything without doing the slightest bit of checking what it is.


No doubt we’ll have the same defenders trying to claim there’s nothing antisemitc about claiming a Jewish cabal secretly controls the world media and financial systems

Danzy

Igotadose wrote: »

Not Europe this time. But, the cretin doing the shooting at a San Diego synagogue where 1 person has died and others are still in hospital, claims he was inspired by the Christchurch shooter, who had dealings with the anti-semites in Europe

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/28/us/san-diego-synagogue-sunday/index.html

2 days ago, Trump waded into the 'good people on both sides' lie he said about Charlottesville. Could that have set this latest filth off?

The San Diego shooter hated Trump for having Jewish family, considered him a Jew lover.

A view that is not just confined to Trumps right wing opponents.

Danzy

blackwhite wrote: »

More evidence of Corbyn’s leanings uncovered in the UK today.

https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1123286240084803585?s=21


Either he has some seriously shady views about Jews, or he will happily lend his name to anything without doing the slightest bit of checking what it is.


No doubt we’ll have the same defenders trying to claim there’s nothing antisemitc about claiming a Jewish cabal secretly controls the world media and financial systems

A Labour assembly member in Wales saying police protection in Synagogues was just down to Jewish paranoia and another calling for a protest march on a Synagogue.

It is daily at this stage.

Antisemitism is engrained in the modern Labour party and starkly so in the European left, not in the Irish Left as far as I can see.

Dohnjoe

Danzy wrote: »

A Labour assembly member in Wales saying police protection in Synagogues was just down to Jewish paranoia and another calling for a protest march on a Synagogue.

It is daily at this stage.

Antisemitism is engrained in the modern Labour party and starkly so in the European left, not in the Irish Left as far as I can see.

And this is despite the massive spotlight on the issue and pledges to clampdown

There is so much boiling under the surface in that party it's like they can't keep a lid on it for 5 minutes.

blackwhite

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That book is a fairly well known attack on imperialism and has been in print for years. There’s just a new version of it being released.

If you want to ban old books that are not politically correct by modern standards you would end up banning most of western literature and a good percentage of enlightenment thinkers.

Who said anything about banning books?

This is about Jeremy Corbin volunteering a ringing endorsement to promote a new publication of the book - which was written by a prominent anti-Semite and pushes a number or anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

No surprise that you are so eager to straw man though - anything to deflect from anti-semitism being highlighted