Hate crime? Really?

gormdubhgorm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So no factual errors then, didn't think so, but thanks for confirming.

I have not time to go checking them to see if the figures are correct.
I do not know if they are statistically massaged or accurate.
Plus since you have not done me the courtesy to read anything I put up, or look at links is that really going to encourage me?

I could do a trawl to the CSO go through stats etc break down different variants of crime, between all the different races, and same races. And cross reference them to the article.
But I have learnt (to my cost) that is a waste of time with you as you would not read them so why put the effort in?
Maybe you could do it for me?
Thanks in advance.

https://www.iccl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Hate-Crime-Report-LR-WEB.pdf

What I do know from what I read is the authors main gripes are there are no crimes named as hate crime in Irish case law. Despite successful prosecutions in the cases the authors picked

"
Given the absence of any legislation on the issue, it is unsurprising that there is extremely limited case law on hate crime in Ireland. Indeed, used in this context the
terms ‘hate’, ‘hatred’ or ‘hate crime’ do not appear in any written judgment delivered
in the history of the State. As we showed in a previous study, a major difficulty
hindering any material factor of racism or other bias motivation from being considered
by a court is that, at each stage of the criminal justice process, the hate element of a
crime has been unlikely to be identified and recorded.Hence, there is a paucity of
reported judgments to consider"





In criminal law the most crucial aspect to look for is intent for any crime.
The authors basically wants another unnecessary layer added to include bias to this intent.
So not only does intent have to be proven, but if there is any biased motivation towards another which leads to the intent.

AndrewJRenko

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What I do know from what I read is the authors main gripes are there are no crimes named as hate crime in Irish case law.

So you just ignored the bit about Ireland having amongst the highest hate crime levels in the EU?

gormdubhgorm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you just ignored the bit about Ireland having amongst the highest hate crime levels in the EU?

I did not ignore it I gave an answer if you read the post again. The bit you are quoting is sensationalist headline part (which the journal and the ICCL thrive on). I was actually reading part of the report the article is based on. It is about 240 pages long.
I suggest you should read it all. because I am not going to do the donkey work for you anymore.
And give me a summary of what you think?
Fair play to ya, thanks.
Would you get it done in a week?
Then I will answer any further questions you have on it at a later date, I promise.

https://www.iccl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Hate-Crime-Report-LR-WEB.pdf

But remember they are extremely biased in their agenda, so I hope you take that into account when you have read the full report.

AndrewJRenko

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I did not ignore it I gave an answer if you read the post again. The bit you are quoting is sensationalist headline part (which the journal and the ICCL thrive on). I was actually reading part of the report the article is based on. It is about 240 pages long.
I suggest you should read it all. because I am not going to do the donkey work for you anymore.
And give me a summary of what you think?
Fair play to ya, thanks.
Would you get it done in a week?
Then I will answer any further questions you have on it at a later date, I promise.

https://www.iccl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Hate-Crime-Report-LR-WEB.pdf

But remember they are extremely biased in their agenda, so I hope you take that into account when you have read the full report.

Yeah, I was fairly happy with the Journal's summary, tbh - the headline that shows that, as a matter of fact, we have very high rates of hate crime compared to our European peers, particularly in the race and trans categories. And you've confirmed that you've no quibble with the stats presented.



If you prefer the Irish Times summary, you could go for that either. It mentions about the under-reporting that is prevalent in the Irish system;


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/tackling-hate-crime-report-calls-for-specific-legislation-1.3552773


But I guess, like the Irish Mammy watching her not-so-gifted son at the army passing out parade, everyone else is out of step except you.

gormdubhgorm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yeah, I was fairly happy with the Journal's summary, tbh - the headline that shows that, as a matter of fact, we have very high rates of hate crime compared to our European peers, particularly in the race and trans categories. And you've confirmed that you've no quibble with the stats presented.



If you prefer the Irish Times summary, you could go for that either. It mentions about the under-reporting that is prevalent in the Irish system;


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/tackling-hate-crime-report-calls-for-specific-legislation-1.3552773


But I guess, like the Irish Mammy watching her not-so-gifted son at the army passing out parade, everyone else is out of step except you.

I don't have access to that Times article - but that is what the lobby groups do they lobby! It is extremely agenda led and identity politics based.
It actually proves my point that the lobby groups are more interested in self publicity rather then the people they claim to want to help.

Is there actual figures you can get me from that report you referenced from the journal? Because I did not see any definitive ones.


I did look up all crime in Ireland in the CSO

https://www.cso.ie/multiquicktables/quickTables.aspx?id=cja01

And from the figures that I did manage to see in the ICCL report did seem minute in comparison to overall crime figures.
Also they are only focusing on Racism and Transgender in the ICCL report headline it seems?

What about all the other groups that could be included if the hate crime bill 2015 passes?
No mention of them in the headline it focuses on people of African race and transgender people - ONLY.
Why is that I wonder? Cherry-picking for a sensational headline.
It also proves how divisive those flag wavers of the ICCL are when pushing thier divisive 'identity politics' agenda.
It serves none but themselves,

I actually found an EU fact sheet it made me laugh because those with the highest rating of 'racist motive' are predominately white EU countries with little mixing of cultures. Which shows it is a societal issue not a legislative one.

In Ireland most mixing is currently at the lower socio-economic level lucan/balbriggan etc. But somehow we still managed to get a gay and mixed race Taoiseach. Meanwhile the UK PM's in London were all white, none gay, and only two were women.
But the way you look at it London has hate crime legislation so the world is great there or something?


Anyway here are the racial motive crime figures for Ireland compared to the other EU countries.

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-factsheet_hatecrime_en_final_0.pdf


(I looked up the codes below - would you have been @rsed?)


https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Glossary:Country_codes

1. Czech Republic v Roma 32%
2. Finland v Somali 32%
3. Denmark v Somali 31%
4. Malta v Africa 29%
5. Greece v Roma 26%
6. Poland v Roma 26%
7. Ireland v Sub Saharan African 26%

So Ireland despite being full of mostly pasty white feckers is only 7th on the list in the EU - a far cry from the 'highest levels' headline.

Cleverly done though from a sensationalists point of view by the ICCL.

I don't get the out of step reference by the way as I am obviously far more clued in than you.
Both from a legal standpoint and as a person whom 'hate crimes' are supposedly aimed at.
I am more qualified to talk about the issues from both standpoints than you, that is plainly obvious.
It was funny though. Bless your cotton socks. You really get taken in by propaganda from lobby groups.

Shemale

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Have you heard of it happening much?

I know a few shorter girls that have been leapfrogged or picked up on nights out.

They dont call themselves activists or didnt go to the press about it.

I wonder how much of an "activist" Sinead would be if she didnt have dwarfism and if it didnt further her career.

There is a lot of that going on lately people championing a cause but only as it directly affects them.

weldoninhio

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So are there any factual errors in the ICCL paper showing that we have one of the highest rates of hate crime in the EU?

Considering that we don’t have “hate” crime legislation here, all the ICCL paper can show is someone’s opinion, rather than fact

AndrewJRenko

Shemale wrote: »

I know a few shorter girls that have been leapfrogged

https://giphy.com/gifs/1AIeYgwnqeBUxh6juu

AndrewJRenko

Shemale wrote: »

I wonder how much of an "activist" Sinead would be if she didnt have dwarfism and if it didnt further her career.

There is a lot of that going on lately people championing a cause but only as it directly affects them.

This says so much more about you than it does about Sinead

AndrewJRenko

weldoninhio wrote: »

Considering that we don’t have “hate” crime legislation here, all the ICCL paper can show is someone’s opinion, rather than fact

You might want to try reading the paper to see how wrong you are.

AndrewJRenko

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I by the way as I am obviously far more clued in than you.
Both from a legal standpoint and as a person whom 'hate crimes' are supposedly aimed at.
I am more qualified to talk about the issues from both standpoints than you, that is plainly obvious. .

You may well be "far more clued in" than me" (though your personal experience does not give you a monopoly of expertise) but that's not really the issue.

The issue is whether you're "far more clued in" than the entire legislature, policy making bodies, criminologists and enforcement authorities of the very many countries around the world that have brought in and maintained hate crime legislation.

Gwan, tell us how you're smarter than all of them.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote:

You'd better go argue with Mr Merriam and Mr Webster so, because their definition hate crime doesn't include hate.

I was talking about the word hate.

Anyway, if a hate crime doesn't include hate, why use that term?

Why can't we call it a "lovely crime"? I'm not saying it is lovely but sure, it's only a word.

It's because you want to use emotive language out of context to show how progressive you are and how you want everyone to know you are looking after people who you think need protecting

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was talking about the word hate.

Anyway, if a hate crime doesn't include hate, why use that term?

Why can't we call it a "lovely crime"? I'm not saying it is lovely but sure, it's only a word.

It's because you want to use emotive language out of context to show how progressive you are and how you want everyone to know you are looking after people who you think need

Good to see that you've moved past the 'denial' stage to the 'questioning' stage - great to see personal growth happening right before our eyes.

Good to see you again completely miss the point and refuse to answer questions put to you.

There is no hate crime in Ireland.

Also good to see you are committed to being condescending and bringing very little to the discussion.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Good to see you again completely miss the point and refuse to answer questions put to you.

There is no hate crime in Ireland.

Also good to see you are committed to being condescending and bringing very little to the discussion apart.

Oh no, you've slipped back to denial. And you were doing so well.

Any was, I'm sure that the victims of our high rates of hate crime will be delighted to hear that they're only imagining getting beaten up and abused because of the colour of their skin or their gender.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Any was, I'm sure that the victims of our high rates of hate crime will be delighted to hear that they're only imagining getting beaten up and abused because of the colour of their skin or their gender.

Again, wilfully misrepresenting what I said.

All crimes. Not hate crimes.

batgoat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Good to see you again completely miss the point and refuse to answer questions put to you.

There is no hate crime in Ireland.

Also good to see you are committed to being condescending and bringing very little to the discussion.

Yes there is and our own CSO has said the number is severely underestimated. That's a pretty ridiculous claim.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-underestimating-level-of-hate-crime-by-at-least-27-1.3728081?mode=amp

weldoninhio

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You might want to try reading the paper to see how wrong you are.

Are the ICCL a legislative body now? We do not have "hate" crime legislation in Ireland. Therefore it is ICCL's opinion that these are hate crimes. There are no official figures, only some vested interest groups take on official crime numbers.

Der Stier

I walked by a tiny bloke the other day, couldn't believe how small he was - maybe 5 ft ?
But he wasn't a dwarf, if I jumped him would that be a hate crime ? honest question.

AndrewJRenko

weldoninhio wrote: »

Are the ICCL a legislative body now? We do not have "hate" crime legislation in Ireland. Therefore it is ICCL's opinion that these are hate crimes. There are no official figures, only some vested interest groups take on official crime numbers.

Your bolded statement is absolutely correct.

But amazingly enough, that doesn't stop hate crimes from happening every day in Ireland to vulnerable people.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, wilfully misrepresenting what I said.

All crimes. Not hate crimes.

Do hate crimes happen in Ireland?

A Yes or No answer would be great.

gormdubhgorm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do hate crimes happen in Ireland?

A Yes or No answer would be great.

This has already explained to you on numerous occasions.
You really love going around in circles don't you?
You are not reading anything in this thread it seems.
I have explained the origin of the term in other jurisdictions, the problems it creates, the division it creates. And how unnecessary it is. Even in the layman's understanding of it.
It is already covered under regular Irish criminal law legislation - assault/ harassment and so and so forth.
You still seem to stick to the view that hate crime legislation will be a magic panacea to all problems when nothing could be further from the truth.
You refuse to look at the motivations and agenda calling for 'hate crime' legislation stuck in an 'indenty politics' mindset.

Are you learning anything from this thread?
Do you even know what a hate crime is yourself in your own words?
You have refused to say what it is and who you would apply it to?
Which scenarios would it apply to and which it would not.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Your bolded statement is absolutely correct.

But amazingly enough, that doesn't stop hate crimes from happening every day in Ireland to vulnerable people.

This is incredible hubris and pure delusion on your part.
Why is the term so important to you?
You are not even in a so called 'vulnerable group' as you would term it.
I know the term 'hate crime' is not important to me, and I am supposed to be a member of one of these 'vulnerable groups'.
If I was assaulted I would just go through the same process like any other individual in this state. Yet you feel YOU have a right to re-brand a crime that would be perpetrated against me not you.
Just to make yourself feel good, and further identity politics? You have some neck on you.
I find the madness of this whole idea insulting to me, as an Irish citizen first and foremost.
You are basically treating me as a second class citizen, for no tangible reason.
If assault happened against me it would still have happened no matter what you term it. Calling it a 'hate crime' - is not going to give me some superpowers with a protective shield.



Also, it is a bit rich in my view of someone like you, asking what a 'hate crime' is, when you do not even seem to really know what it is yourself and the idea behind the term.

As for your comments about under reporting of 'hate crime' in another post.
I also think that is sensationalist as regular 'crime' as you would term it is under-reported to the gardai according to CSO figures

https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0928/819843-crime-cso/

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/reviewofcrime.pdf

An estimated 17% of crime reported to An Garda Síochana in 2015 via their
CAD equipped divisions does not appear to be captured on PULSE.

Are you learning anything from this thread at all?
Or are you still stuck in the calling a crime a 'hate crime' solves it all mindset?
Are you even questioning your belief why it might not be as great a thing as you once thought?
Or are you going to ignore the reality that it is merely a re-branding and re-criminalisation of what is already there?
Do you even realise how the use of the term 'hate crime' can be divisive and insulting?

Shemale

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://giphy.com/gifs/1AIeYgwnqeBUxh6juu

Settle down snowflake, just because things arent in the paper doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Shemale

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

This says so much more about you than it does about Sinead

No, not really, if her siblings dont have dwarfism are they "activists"

Raheem Sterling, is the poster boy for kick it out but he only gets involved in situations affecting black players.

I am a white male, I wont tolerate people being nasty about others who are different and regularly call them out or tell them to shut up. I dont call myself an activist or go to papers about it.

AndrewJRenko

Shemale wrote: »

Settle down snowflake, just because things arent in the paper doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

So leapfrogging is a thing now on nights out? Who do you think that you're kidding?

AndrewJRenko

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This has already explained to you on numerous occasions.
You really love going around in circles don't you?
You are not reading anything in this thread it seems.
I have explained the origin of the term in other jurisdictions, the problems it creates, the division it creates. And how unnecessary it is. Even in the layman's understanding of it.
It is already covered under regular Irish criminal law legislation - assault/ harassment and so and so forth.
You still seem to stick to the view that hate crime legislation will be a magic panacea to all problems when nothing could be further from the truth.
You refuse to look at the motivations and agenda calling for 'hate crime' legislation stuck in an 'indenty politics' mindset.

Are you learning anything from this thread?
Do you even know what a hate crime is yourself in your own words?
You have refused to say what it is and who you would apply it to?
Which scenarios would it apply to and which it would not.

I'm a bit confused now. Is this a Yes or a No answer as to whether hate crimes happen in Ireland?

AndrewJRenko

Shemale wrote: »

No, not really, if her siblings dont have dwarfism are they "activists"

Raheem Sterling, is the poster boy for kick it out but he only gets involved in situations affecting black players.

I am a white male, I wont tolerate people being nasty about others who are different and regularly call them out or tell them to shut up. I dont call myself an activist or go to papers about it.

No, really. It says so much more about you that you feel threatened by the idea of an activist. Go have a look at her Ted talk and see if you think her activism is necessary.

AndrewJRenko

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This is incredible hubris and pure delusion on your part.
Why is the term so important to you?
You are not even in a so called 'vulnerable group' as you would term it.
I know the term 'hate crime' is not important to me, and I am supposed to be a member of one of these 'vulnerable groups'.
If I was assaulted I would just go through the same process like any other individual in this state. Yet you feel YOU have a right to re-brand a crime that would be perpetrated against me not you.
Just to make yourself feel good, and further identity politics? You have some neck on you.
I find the madness of this whole idea insulting to me, as an Irish citizen first and foremost.
You are basically treating me as a second class citizen, for no tangible reason.
If assault happened against me it would still have happened no matter what you term it. Calling it a 'hate crime' - is not going to give me some superpowers with a protective shield.

How exactly did you decide that I'm not a member of a vulnerable group?

gormdubhgorm

Der Stier wrote: »

I walked by a tiny bloke the other day, couldn't believe how small he was - maybe 5 ft ?
But he wasn't a dwarf, if I jumped him would that be a hate crime ? honest question.

According to the proponents of hate crime legislation it would be termed that if you had proved a bias towards that individual as a result of his genetic features. It is basically criminalising the apparent motivation of a crime, not just the act of the crime itself
Which shows how silly the whole thing gets.

Proposed Hate Crime Bill 2015 Ireland -

http://enarireland.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/WG-Bill-2015-Criminal-Law-Hate-Crime-Bill.pdf

Where a 'protected group' is termed as follows:

“protected group” includes individuals who are identified on the basis of their race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, membership of the Traveller or Roma communities, property, birth, disability, age, gender, gender expression, gender identity,sexual orientation, residence status or health;

Basically it is like butter to bread, it can be applied as liberally as you wish based on that definition of 'protected group'


I used a similar example of an old woman with Osteoporosis four foot tall and leapfrogged like Sinead's scenario - with no dwarfism just osteoporosis.

But AndrewJRenko refused to answer whether he considered this a 'hate crime' as he is not a legal expert! Yet he has no issue calling the crime against Sinead a 'hate crime'.

Presumably AndrewJRenko and those like him, struggle with some cognitive dissonance when faced with other scenarios (like the one above) that do not fit into his own personal view of what a 'hate crime' is?
He was unwilling to answer what he thought about other scenarios similar to Sinead's but affecting those from within protected groups

That is another problem with using the term 'hate crime'.

I even used Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh as an example.
Where if she was assaulted when speaking the Irish language and was called an Irish speaking, ginger bitch - would this be a hate crime?

AndrewJRenko was again strangely silent on that issue.

gormdubhgorm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How exactly did you decide that I'm not a member of a vulnerable group?

Because you are so bloody patronising to 'vulnerable groups' you seem that you could not possibly be in one.
I could be wrong of course.
You speak like a Victorian similar to the 'white man's burden' helping those beneath you etc. The same mindset.

Or are you going to share what 'vulnerable group' you consider that you are from, and enlighten us all?