Potentially life threatening! Alternator failed resulting in very heavy steering...

ohnonotgmail

Kevin Irving wrote: »

No harm for some jobs in fairness. I say that as someone who does absolutely as much as I can myself. They'll have any specialist tools required for a particular brand. It can be hard for many people to find a reliable and trusted independent in a hurry.



It seems like that Electric power steering was shut off by the alternator failure. I would have expected it to be powered for some time by the battery. More of a design flaw perhaps?

In my current car (E-Class), the brake lights and horn are reliant on the key being in and turned to P1. In my view, that's a serious design flaw.

why do you need brake lights and a horn when you are parked?

kirving

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

why do you need brake lights and a horn when you are parked?

Why wouldn't you want them? I can see no reason not to wire a car in such a way as to have that feature. My Volvo S40 could do it.

Was in a car park one day just about to get out of the car and leaned on the horn when I saw a child about to run out in front of a car. Both the car and kid stopped.

If you ever accidentally cut the car out (say pulling out of a junction on a country road at night), directly connected brake lights might just save your life if a car comes around the bend.

ohnonotgmail

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Why wouldn't you want them? I can see no reason not to wire a car in such a way as to have that feature. My Volvo S40 could do it.

Was in a car park one day just about to get out of the car and leaned on the horn when I saw a child about to run out in front of a car. Both the car and kid stopped.

If you ever accidentally cut the car out (say pulling out of a junction on a country road at night), directly connected brake lights might just save your life if a car comes around the bend.

you said

In my current car (E-Class), the brake lights and horn are reliant on the key being in and turned to P1. In my view, that's a serious design flaw.

If your car cuts out the key is still in the ignition so the brake lights will still work or am i misunderstanding you?

kirving

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you said

If your car cuts out the key is still in the ignition so the brake lights will still work or am i misunderstanding you?

Maybe P1 should be P2. What I mean the key has to be turned to the first click position before these are powered. ie: not just sitting in the ignition

Really, my comparison here is just to show how different manufacturing or design decisions can impact the end user. I would think that the Toyota should have maintained steering power for a little time even in the event of Alternator failure.

9935452

Kevin Irving wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you said

If your car cuts out the key is still in the ignition so the brake lights will still work or am i misunderstanding you?

I would think that the Toyota should have maintained steering power for a little time even in the event of Alternator failure.

Id actually prefer if the car was to sacrafice the power steering to maintain the battery.
It could be the difference in making it home or to the garage and car cutting out on the motorway at 120kmph.
There are a lot of people out there that dont know what an alternater is or does and would keep driving even with the battery light on in the dash.
Give them a problem like no powersteering and they will stop

tcawley29

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Maybe P1 should be P2. What I mean the key has to be turned to the first click position before these are powered. ie: not just sitting in the ignition

Really, my comparison here is just to show how different manufacturing or design decisions can impact the end user. I would think that the Toyota should have maintained steering power for a little time even in the event of Alternator failure.

If a battery is in poor health it may not hold a charge for long enough to do this - not Toyotas problem

Also I'm pretty sure Toyota and a lot of other manufacturers have a feature where the battery light shows on the dashboard if there is a problem with the alternator and maybe the OP missed this when he panicked. This light would be sufficient warning in my opinion.

Anyways its only power steering, its not the end of the world. I have driven modern cars without it before and although it is more effort it is certainly not impossible.

pablo128

I had to drive a small truck from Tullamore to Mullingar and back to Dublin before with failed power steering. That was a bundle of fun on the old N52.

route66

TheBoyConor wrote: »

More like a fail-deadly design flaw than a manufacturing defect if the car's electrical system is designed in such a way that a failure of the alternator would have a knock on effect of knocking out the power assist steering.
<SNIP>

Hang on, the vast majority of cars* have power assisted steering. This assistance typically comes from either hydraulic or electrical sources.

It is not "Fly by wire" steering; if the assistance fails, the steering continues to work via a mechanical linkage, albeit it will be heavier.

Fail-deadly sounds a bit sensationalist:

*I think Mitsubishi may be the exception with one car, almost definitely never seen in Ireland.

route66

Wibbs wrote:

<SNIP>
There's also a bit of a technique difference in driving unassisted. It never really occurred to me TBH until I was giving an uncle of mine a lift last year. After we set off he said it was easy to see I had learned on cars without power steering. When I asked how come, he pointed out that in setting off I only started to turn the wheel after we had started to move. Which is what you tended to do in the old days if you didn't want arms like Popeye.

It's not just that. Even with Popeye arms and power steering you should not twirl the wheel when stationary - if you can avoid it - for various reasons, mainly:

• Shreds the tyres
• Put's unnecessary loads on the mechanical linkages of the steering system leading to premature wear

my3cents

route66 wrote: »

It's not just that. Even with Popeye arms and power steering you should not twirl the wheel when stationary - if you can avoid it - for various reasons, mainly:

• Shreds the tyres
• Put's unnecessary loads on the mechanical linkages of the steering system leading to premature wear

But thats not how driving instructors teach learners now a days.

Drivers are taught to make full use of the power steering even when the car is stationary.

I was taught the old way and always "get the steering in while the vehicle is in motion".

A classic example being the three point turn my wife was taught to turn the wheel when the vehicle was stationary and I was taught only to turn the wheel when the vehicle was moving.

hi5

beauf wrote: »

I think that older cars without power steering had a different steering set up to lighten the steering. New cars don't bother with this so without power they are ridiculously heavy.

Only my theory. I had cars without power steering for years. But I don't remember them being that heavy. That said I had a stock 80s GTI that the GF couldn't park because the steering was too heavy.

As well as the lower ratio mentioned old cars had zero or very little caster, modern cars with more caster mean as you turn the steering from side to side you are actually lifting the weight of the front of the car up and down.

mloc123

How did we manage before power steering was standard :d

dudara

mloc123 wrote: »

How did we manage before power steering was standard :d

Exactly my thoughts. One of the first cars I drove, a Lancia Prisma, was an absolute wallower at low speeds. We had bigger wheels back then mind. More leverage to turn.

mloc123

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Just thinking about this at a basic level, even if the alternator failed suddenly the car still should have an ample reserve of electrical power in the battery to be able to run the power steering. The fact that the rest of the electrical items still worked would indicate that there was ample electrical supply left.

Most likely that the power steering pump is driven off the same aux belt as the alternator.

gctest50

dudara wrote: »

Exactly my thoughts. One of the first cars I drove, a Lancia Prisma, was an absolute wallower at low speeds. We had bigger wheels back then mind. More leverage to turn.

Or the Lancia Gamma, with the power steering driven from the timing belt

colm_mcm

gctest50 wrote: »

Or the Lancia Gamma, with the power steering driven from the timing belt

Jesus

Gammas have an unenviable reputation when it comes to their toothed camshaft drive belt, and not without reason! The camshaft serving the nearside (left- hand) pair of cylinders also drives the power steering pump. A lack of development, in early cars in particular, showed itself when unsuspecting owners would start their Gammas on a cold morning with the steering on full lock. This would cause the cambelt to break / jump with the load from the steering pump, resulting in one pair of cylinders firing-up whilst the other pair tried to destroy themselves, at the least causing bent valves

magentis

my3cents wrote: »

But thats not how driving instructors teach learners now a days.

Drivers are taught to make full use of the power steering even when the car is stationary.

I was taught the old way and always "get the steering in while the vehicle is in motion".

A classic example being the three point turn my wife was taught to turn the wheel when the vehicle was stationary and I was taught only to turn the wheel when the vehicle was moving.

Not really correct.

Dry steering is still frowned upon by driving testers.If a driving instructor encourages it he would be leading the candidate down the wrong path.

deandean

Same happened me, the accessory belt (which was well overdue a change) snapped and I lost the power steering. At first I thought the steering had locked! But that's life OP. If you want absolute reliability, buy a new car every 2 years.

Del2005

mloc123 wrote: »

How did we manage before power steering was standard :d

Same as how people managed before electricity, they survived but no one wants to go back.

CoBo55

I can't believe this thread is 7 pages!!! Your car broke, you got it fixed, end of.

wonski

CoBo55 wrote: »

I can't believe this thread is 7 pages!!! Your car broke, you got it fixed, end of.

The op already thanked all for advice.

Smart ones keep posting smart things

On the other hand there were few good posts along the way so not sure what your problem is?

CoBo55

wonski wrote: »

The op already thanked all for advice.

Smart ones keep posting smart things

On the other hand there were few good posts along the way so not sure what your problem is?

What good posts? Bigger steering wheels on manual steering cars, what a load of cobblers. I was driving a 90's jap import diesel corolla, the alternator belt broke, I had no brakes as the vacuum pump is on the back of the alternator, guess what? I got a new belt didn't start a thread in boards, didn't contact my solicitor, I just got on with it. Suck it up buttercup.

wonski

CoBo55 wrote: »

What good posts? Bigger steering wheels on manual steering cars, what a load of cobblers. I was driving a 90's jap import diesel corolla, the alternator belt broke, I had no brakes as the vacuum pump is on the back of the alternator, guess what? I got a new belt didn't start a thread in boards, didn't contact my solicitor, I just got on with it. Suck it up buttercup.

If you read back you will notice the op already thanked for the explanation and moved on.

You should do, too.

There were few more posts explaining the difficulties of losing the power in more detail than in your post.

For some losing a power steering is an event and they have every right to ask about it on boards.

You had brakes, just no servo, so why you post it here

CoBo55

wonski wrote: »

If you read back you will notice the op already thanked for the explanation and moved on.

You should do, too.

There were few more posts explaining the difficulties of losing the power in more detail than in your post.

For some losing a power steering is an event and they have every right to ask about it on boards.

You had brakes, just no servo, so why you post it here

Same as the op, he had steering just no power assistance, car is now fixed, case closed...

DJ WIPEOUT

CoBo55 wrote: »

Same as the op, he had steering just no power assistance, car is now fixed, case closed...

Thanks CoBo55 for your masterful display of dominance! Maybe this is your world and you're comfortable in your knowledge of what happened here. I've got my world too...

My father also said I should listen to everyone I meet (online and offline) as everyone has some nugget of knowledge that I don't!

The thread was opened in a question form and any notion of contacting a solicitor is entirely your own as I haven't mentioned or done that!

To me (as a non mechanic/engineer), intuition alone would beg the question as to what happens to a car and it's driver/passengers when it's electrically assisted steering fails (it becomes like a dead weight) and you're trying to avoid a crash by trying to get out of this situation or travelling at speed. The "ah it'll be grand sure" attitude of replacing the part and motoring on none the wiser admiring the buttercups in the passing fields is just pure dumb in my view.

Tip: never be afraid to ask a question and there's no such thing as a silly question ;-)

ExoPolitic

I remember when my aux belt fell off due to a worn pulley in my bmw 320d. The power steering went, but the main issue then was that the water pump also stops... Luckily I was close enough to a garage where I knew the mechanic to sail straight in. If I'd of kept going I'd of cooked the engine

ohnonotgmail

DJ WIPEOUT wrote: »

Thanks CoBo55 for your masterful display of dominance! Maybe this is your world and you're comfortable in your knowledge of what happened here. I've got my world too...

My father also said I should listen to everyone I meet (online and offline) as everyone has some nugget of knowledge that I don't!

The thread was opened in a question form and any notion of contacting a solicitor is entirely your own as I haven't mentioned or done that!

To me (as a non mechanic/engineer), intuition alone would beg the question as to what happens to a car and it's driver/passengers when it's electrically assisted steering fails (it becomes like a dead weight) and you're trying to avoid a crash by trying to get out of this situation or travelling at speed. The "ah it'll be grand sure" attitude of replacing the part and motoring on none the wiser admiring the buttercups in the passing fields is just pure dumb in my view.

Tip: never be afraid to ask a question and there's no such thing as a silly question ;-)

If you had been travelling at speed the steering would have been lighter.

DJ WIPEOUT

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If you had been travelling at speed the steering would have been lighter.

Thanks ohnonotgmail, this was my main concern and I understand from all the replies so far that as you say the steering would have been lighter which is a relief to know going forward.

swarlb

colm_mcm wrote: »

Jesus

Rather than be shocked at a failing in a car not seen in production in almost 40 years, why not be stunned and amazed that cars built in the past few years (or even months) can implode due to bad design.... BMW timing chains for example.