Potentially life threatening! Alternator failed resulting in very heavy steering...

DJ WIPEOUT

pablo128 wrote: »

Petrol Avensis of that era has electric power assisted steering. No electricity means no power assistance. The car is fixed. Drive on.

Thanks pablo128, hopefully no further re-occurrence for the life of the vehicle as it's not pleasant to say the least!

DJ WIPEOUT

TheBoyConor wrote: »

More like a fail-deadly design flaw than a manufacturing defect if the car's electrical system is designed in such a way that a failure of the alternator would have a knock on effect of knocking out the power assist steering.

Just thinking about this at a basic level, even if the alternator failed suddenly the car still should have an ample reserve of electrical power in the battery to be able to run the power steering. The fact that the rest of the electrical items still worked would indicate that there was ample electrical supply left.

Thinking again, it may be that the signal from the spinning alternator enables the steering assist motor at a software level. If this wasn't the case the power steering would function with the engine off but the ignition switched on which you wouldn't want. A failure in the alternator may mean that this signal was lost and the control system then "thought" that there was no signal from the alternator, therefore the engine is off, so don't activate the power steering.

I may be wrong here in this case, but I do know that some vehicles do use the AC signal from the alternator to determine that the engine running.

If this is the case here it is a fail deadly design as it could result in the situation you describe.

Of course this may not be the case at all as I do not know the ins and outs of these cars.

Thanks TheBoyConor, now there's a new term for me: 'fail-deadly' in a military context: "In nuclear weapons strategy: encouraging deterrence by guaranteeing an immediate, automatic, and overwhelming response to an attack, even if the command-and-control infrastructure has been damaged by the enemy's first strike."

I would have assumed as you say: "Just thinking about this at a basic level, even if the alternator failed suddenly the car still should have an ample reserve of electrical power in the battery to be able to run the power steering. The fact that the rest of the electrical items still worked would indicate that there was ample electrical supply left."

DJ WIPEOUT

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Not a snowballs chance in hell of goodwill IMO. If you aren't comfortable any more in that car, you're only alternative is to sell it and buy another and take effectively the same chance again.

Sure any failure in a car is life threatening in the wrong circumstance, that's the chance you take using one really. Engine failure could have caused the same issue. If you were to draw up a list of things that could fail in a car unexpectedly that could kill you, it'd be a super long list.

I know the electronic steering in those is very heavy when you loose power, not like hydraulic steering where when you loose power you can still manhandle it, electronic steering is almost effectively locked. No doubt you may have gotten a fright.

It's not really a manufacturing defect in the strictest sense, it's more like aging/ wear in this scenario. If the alternator didn't last 12/ 24/36 months, you could argue it was a manufacturing defect as you easily expect an alternator to last that long and while most of us expect an alternator to be a life long item, the reality is a failure after 168 months/ 14 years is very difficult to define as a manufacturing process related defect as opposed to any kind of excessive wear, incorrect maintenance or external influence it may have been exposed to since then.

edit: my 10,000th post, ranting about a faulty Toyota. Who'd have thought it :pac:

Thank Toyotafanboi. Goodwill is discretionary living up to ‘best built cars in the world’? is an expectation.

I guess this failure just caught me by surprise as the car had only recently been serviced and showed no warnings before or after the alternator failed.

Defo, got a big fright!

I accept the alternator can go after 14 years of use and I am grateful for it lasting so long. It's more just the knock on impact of it's failure that is hard to rationalise!

Congrats on the 10,000th post

DJ WIPEOUT

bmc58 wrote: »

Driving on the M50 at 100 to 120kmph?When does this happen?I thought it's usually about 50 kmph,if you're lucky.

Thanks bmc58, that would be more in the evenings or at weekends. I don't travel via M50 for work (it's more of a car park I believe so more like 10 - 12 kph) thank God!

DJ WIPEOUT

Alanstrainor wrote: »

That assumes the battery is healthy. It seems the power steering draws a lot of power which explains why that was the first thing to fail. Why there was no light on the dash... I have no idea.



Your failed steering was far far harder to turn than cars of old. Fighting the now dead electric motor being the main cause. Anyone would have found that difficult.

Defo, I'm a big guy with no problem shifting reasonable weights normally but the surprise of the situation I was in at the time no doubt added to it!

9935452

DJ WIPEOUT wrote: »

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Alternators are not for life. The dealer identified the fault, fixed it so really you should be good for years to come. You can worry all you like, but I can't see why it would fail again any time soon. And honestly the car would be much easier to steer at speed anyway, the greater the speed the easier it is to steer. It seems to have failed when you were stopped, which would take quite some force to turn the wheel.

Anyway, it was an annoying situation but nothing to worry about. And here's a top tip forget going to the dealer with a 14 year old car, find a good independent local to you and save a fortune.

I've been told this tip before and without opening up another thread... I struggle with the insurance/legal ramifications of taking it to a "good independent local" if they are more limited in the scope of their testing and responsibility. If, worst case, the car is involved in someone's death/serious injury by accident (in which case the car will be forensically examined), I would much rather be standing up in court saying an Authorised Dealer looked at it, provided a report of work completed and signed off on the job rather than Joe Bloggs around the corner from me fixed x,y and z but I don't have any/much proof of what was/wasn't done.

Isnt that what the nct is for.
An inspection saying the car is safe for use on the roads.

To be fair as well the main dealers will have better technology in the most than indies for the newer stuff but for the older cars an indie would be just as well equipped.
And there are stuff that the main dealer wont touch that indies will

_Brian

9935452 wrote: »

Isnt that what the nct is for.
An inspection saying the car is safe for use on the roads.

To be fair as well the main dealers will have better technology in the most than indies for the newer stuff but for the older cars an indie would be just as well equipped.
And there are stuff that the main dealer wont touch that indies will

The NCT is a rough check that major bits aren’t about to fall off and of course emissions.

If the NCT were expected to test everything down to “will the alternator stop working”, the rest would take about three weeks and cost about €5,000

It’s an older car, something broke, OP got a bit of a shock, it’s fixed now, life is good, move on.

Expecting it paid for is laughable

Gonad

14 year old car and only this happens ?

Another tip

Don’t ever buy a Citroen

tsue921i8wljb3

This happened to someone I know recently in a MK5 Golf which also has electrically assisted steering. She maintains the car was totally undriveable when the steering failed and like Toyotafanboi said she actually thought the steering had locked. I didn't get a chance to experience it to see if the wheels were in any way moveable but if a large guy like the OP is struggling I guess they aren't.

zoe 3619

Does the alternater maybe drive a power steering belt which might need tightening or adjusting if it doesn't feel right ?
Oh,sorry.Re-read your post.
If the alternater is replaced,then I imagine your good to go.No reason for the problem to reoccur.

Odyssey 2005

Wouldn't happen on a bike

colm_mcm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Not that I'm aware of.

The reality is, the alternator failed so actually the whole car stopped working, just the only symptom that the OP has honed in on is the (obvious) loss of steering. There actually is nor was anything wrong with the OP's steering, that we know of anyway. An electrical fault shut the whole car down, including the steering.

If the alternator had failed, there should have been a battery warning light on long before the steering lost power, it’s only when the battery is nearly discharged that the steering thing happens.

tsue921i8wljb3

zoe 3619 wrote: »

Does the alternater maybe drive a power steering belt which might need tightening or adjusting if it doesn't feel right ?

Not in my case anyway. There is no power steering pump or pulley. As far as I know the power steering in the MK5 Golf is a sealed system driven by an electric motor.

mickdw

People are making small of this but imo it's a dangerous design if power steering can be lost without warning.
I can easily see how this could make a driver take a wider than required line into a bend. If that was to happen at the wrong time, it can certainly lead to an accident.

blackbox

mickdw wrote: »

People are making small of this but imo it's a dangerous design if power steering can be lost without warning.
I can easily see how this could make a driver take a wider than required line into a bend. If that was to happen at the wrong time, it can certainly lead to an accident.

As could a puncture, a suspension failure, etc.

pablo128

mickdw wrote: »

People are making small of this but imo it's a dangerous design if power steering can be lost without warning.
I can easily see how this could make a driver take a wider than required line into a bend. If that was to happen at the wrong time, it can certainly lead to an accident.

I take it you check your power steering belt before every journey then?

theteal

DJ WIPEOUT wrote: »

Thanks theteal, I accept that point. It's more the effects of a failed alternator are a little harder to stomach!

I’d say most of us have been there, I’m afraid. I’ve had a blow out at 70mph on the overtaking lane of M20, that was worse. Such happens when you’re driving, it’s a machine full of little bits that can go wrong, just don’t let it affect your confidence

mickdw

blackbox wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

People are making small of this but imo it's a dangerous design if power steering can be lost without warning.
I can easily see how this could make a driver take a wider than required line into a bend. If that was to happen at the wrong time, it can certainly lead to an accident.

As could a puncture, a suspension failure, etc.

Yes but you keep on top of tyre maintenance and actual blow out is very very rare and a slow loss of pressure is easily picked up when driving.
Suspension collapse is not going to happen in a maintained car.
This is a zero warning, be it car feel or anything else.

mickdw

pablo128 wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

People are making small of this but imo it's a dangerous design if power steering can be lost without warning.
I can easily see how this could make a driver take a wider than required line into a bend. If that was to happen at the wrong time, it can certainly lead to an accident.

I take it you check your power steering belt before every journey then?

No but I keep it in good condition.

TrailerBob

Ah lads, the alternator went. It happens. Nobody to blame, no compo to be gotten, no reason to go down the "somebody please think of the children!!" route. Mine bit the dust on the way out of Dublin last year in a 2 ton landcruiser, fully loaded in the back too. Took my time and got it home before the lights died. OP's car may not have high miles but the engine may have run for a long time with town driving etc.. the bearings go. If you were that scared, then stay put and hazards on, and wait for help. I don't buy the life threatening bit in this situation as described.

Odyssey 2005

TrailerBob wrote: »

Ah lads, the alternator went. It happens. Nobody to blame, no compo to be gotten, no reason to go down the "somebody please think of the children!!" route. Mine bit the dust on the way out of Dublin last year in a 2 ton landcruiser, fully loaded in the back too. Took my time and got it home before the lights died. OP's car may not have high miles but the engine may have run for a long time with town driving etc.. the bearings go. If you were that scared, then stay put and hazards on, and wait for help. I don't buy the life threatening bit in this situation as described.

100%

Ubbquittious

People got along grand before there was power steering. Yet one more example of our mollified population becoming even more mollified

Del2005

mickdw wrote: »

Yes but you keep on top of tyre maintenance and actual blow out is very very rare and a slow loss of pressure is easily picked up when driving.
Suspension collapse is not going to happen in a maintained car.
This is a zero warning, be it car feel or anything else.

The OPs car is 14 years old and it's alternator failed. The fact that it was such a shock shows how rare it actually occurs. The OP though they had a puncture which also occurs without warning and no amount of checking can stop a tyre bursting. I got a puncture 5 minutes after getting new tyres fitted by driving over a piece of metal on the road, the hole in the tyre was about 50mm.

Any part of a car, or any machine, can fail at any time without warning.

colm_mcm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

People got along grand before there was power steering. Yet one more example of our mollified population becoming even more mollified

In fairness a car with failed power steering has heavier steering than one with no power assistance.

Irish Steve

If you want hardship, try being at the wheel of a Land Rover that's being towed because of an engine failure. No power steering, and no power brakes, so it becomes an exercise in serious brute force to turn it, or stop it, and remember that on a tow rope, the best plan is for the vehicle being towed to act as the brakes for both vehicles.

That said, on two occasions I've had an alternator belt fail that in the process of falling off also takes the separate power steering belt off as well, which leaves the vehicle with no power steering, and no brake assist after the first pedal push. Depending on where that happens, it can very much get your attention, as the dash lights up with red warning lights, and responding to them can be "interesting", especially if you're overtaking on a motorway at the time! Depending on the engine design, this sort of failure is more serious than an alternator fail, as the lack of belts also means that the water pump may no longer be turning, so it won't be long before the engine is at risk of overheating as well.

With anything like this, it's the surprise factor that can be the danger, and the sudden dramatic change in the way the vehicle handles. We've been spoilt in modern times with the way that vehicles have evolved, it wasn't that many years ago that there was no power steering on a lot of vehicles, and that meant a serious work out in town traffic at low speeds, especially in something like a larger panel van with bigger tyres, but it comes down to what you're used to, and what you expect.

Isambard

i can't believe you took a 14 yr old car to a main dealer. They do do good lube jobs though.

beauf

colm_mcm wrote: »

In fairness a car with failed power steering has heavier steering than one with no power assistance.

I think that older cars without power steering had a different steering set up to lighten the steering. New cars don't bother with this so without power they are ridiculously heavy.

Only my theory. I had cars without power steering for years. But I don't remember them being that heavy. That said I had a stock 80s GTI that the GF couldn't park because the steering was too heavy.

ohnonotgmail

Isambard wrote: »

i can't believe you took a 14 yr old car to a main dealer. They do do good lube jobs though.

I cant believe the OP thinks a failed alternator is a manufacturing defect.

Wibbs

Ubbquittious wrote: »

People got along grand before there was power steering. Yet one more example of our mollified population becoming even more mollified

Yes and no. The ratios in a steering rack with power steering are different to ones without it. People these days are almost exclusively used to driving cars with power assistance, so when it goes suddenly it naturally comes as a shock. Back in the days of no or few cars with power steering quite a few people found it bloody difficult at parking and low speeds, especially in heavier cars. On that note cars of today are on average at least a half ton heavier than cars of the past, so driving a car that weighs 1000 kilos(or less) with no power steering compared to a car that ways 1500 kilos(and often more) is quite a bit different. Back in the day a Mark 1 Ford Granada, which was considered a "big feckin car" weighed 1100 kilos. That's the same weight as the new Renault Alpine two seater sports car where they went on a major weight saving exercise and that's considered a very light car.

There's also a bit of a technique difference in driving unassisted. It never really occurred to me TBH until I was giving an uncle of mine a lift last year. After we set off he said it was easy to see I had learned on cars without power steering. When I asked how come, he pointed out that in setting off I only started to turn the wheel after we had started to move. Which is what you tended to do in the old days if you didn't want arms like Popeye.

kirving

Isambard wrote: »

i can't believe you took a 14 yr old car to a main dealer. They do do good lube jobs though.

No harm for some jobs in fairness. I say that as someone who does absolutely as much as I can myself. They'll have any specialist tools required for a particular brand. It can be hard for many people to find a reliable and trusted independent in a hurry.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I cant believe the OP thinks a failed alternator is a manufacturing defect.

It seems like that Electric power steering was shut off by the alternator failure. I would have expected it to be powered for some time by the battery. More of a design flaw perhaps?

In my current car (E-Class), the brake lights and horn are reliant on the key being in and turned to P1. In my view, that's a serious design flaw.