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Random Fitness Questions

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  • Had to look up deep water there

    "It’s 6 weeks long, 5 days a week. 4 days in a row of lifting. Two Deep Water days with a main lower/upper body movement done for 10 sets of 10 with about 54% of your 1RM. You progress by keeping weight, sets and reps the same and reducing rest times between sets from 4 to 2 minutes."

    Vom

    That’s Deep Water Beginner as well!

    The beginner does refer to experience with Deep Water though, not experience of lifting.




  • That’s Deep Water Beginner as well!

    The beginner does refer to experience with Deep Water though, not experience of lifting.

    Deep Water appears very very interesting...




  • Deep Water appears very very interesting...

    There's a few spreadsheets floating about the internet I think and if you go to Jon Andersen's Instagram bio you can get the 90 page detailing the Deep Water philosophy and actual programmes for free

    https://amp.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/9rxz7x/program_reviewjon_andersens_deep_water_beginner/

    That review is what first got me interested in it but I must admit I haven't got to actually run it yet. I get very little time in which to run something of my choice at that intensity. Currently doing Building the Monolith so Deep Water probably has to wait until next summer for me.




  • There's a few spreadsheets floating about the internet I think and if you go to Jon Andersen's Instagram bio you can get the 90 page detailing the Deep Water philosophy and actual programmes for free

    https://amp.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/9rxz7x/program_reviewjon_andersens_deep_water_beginner/

    That review is what first got me interested in it but I must admit I haven't got to actually run it yet. I get very little time in which to run something of my choice at that intensity. Currently doing Building the Monolith so Deep Water probably has to wait until next summer for me.

    How in the world do you manage 100 dips!!




  • How in the world do you manage 100 dips!!

    In fairness I treat the high number of dips and chins as more of a target than a set number. I've been getting in the 70s on dips unassisted and could probably get over 100 if I was willing to take 10 minutes longer. My chins are dreadful though and I do most of them banded or assisted.


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  • The Reddit write up is good. Convinces me Deep Water is a bonkers program that probably only suits a minority of really experienced lifters. I’ve got no doubt it builds an amazing work capacity more than anything else. But so many pitfalls...

    Two hours for the squat day, I’m not surprised! I’d be divorced.




  • Back training after the best part of over a year out of the gym.
    Aiming for a 6 day PPL 40-45 min workout then a 5km outdoor run 5 days a week.
    Gaining my strength back at a surprisingly fast pace.




  • In fairness I treat the high number of dips and chins as more of a target than a set number. I've been getting in the 70s on dips unassisted and could probably get over 100 if I was willing to take 10 minutes longer. My chins are dreadful though and I do most of them banded or assisted.

    Dips are the one thing that ruins my shoulders




  • The Reddit write up is good. Convinces me Deep Water is a bonkers program that probably only suits a minority of really experienced lifters. I’ve got no doubt it builds an amazing work capacity more than anything else. But so many pitfalls...

    Two hours for the squat day, I’m not surprised! I’d be divorced.

    TBH there's very little that you can do, that is reasonably difficult and takes 2 hours that is not going to get results.


    Whenever I want volume, I typically run GVT. Which is not very often.
    I'm more like to be happy with a volume intro wave to whatever long program.




  • Dips are the one thing that ruins my shoulders

    It's interesting because I'm currently rehabbing one shoulder and they're both structurally not great but I can't remember the last time I had pain from doing dips. People seem to really vary in how they react to them.

    https://youtu.be/qN6z_Tdhykc

    Might be useful.


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  • Dips are the one thing that ruins my shoulders

    I used to be the same. Did a few weeks of progressive banded dips and now I’m pain free on them. Go as deep down as you can and don’t reduce band thickness until you can do about 15 with zero pain.

    I’ve had numerous people do this with same success.

    I’m convinced it’s just that bodyweight is too much for some people to start with, especially on an exercise that demands a good bit of shoulder flexibility.




  • The way I was initially shown to do dips emphasised range of motion. One of the guiding principles in our training at that time was about moving the load through as great a range of motion as possible. Why? Because **** you, that's why... It was CrossFit in the 00s.

    No one actually looked at what happened with shoulder rotation after a certain point, or even thought what the tissues that we were actually trying to work with dips were in the first place.

    To be honest I think most people would be better served being quite strict about not bending past 90 degrees, and to really take their time on the descent. Ask yourself, if you sag really deep, what are you feeling, and do your ligaments and tendons feel A1 or not? And why do it anyway, if the goal is to use them as an upper body mass builder, and going that deep takes the strain off the main tissues you're trying to work?




  • The way I was initially shown to do dips emphasised range of motion. One of the guiding principles in our training at that time was about moving the load through as great a range of motion as possible. Why? Because **** you, that's why... It was CrossFit in the 00s.

    No one actually looked at what happened with shoulder rotation after a certain point, or even thought what the tissues that we were actually trying to work with dips were in the first place.

    To be honest I think most people would be better served being quite strict about not bending past 90 degrees, and to really take their time on the descent. Ask yourself, if you sag really deep, what are you feeling, and do your ligaments and tendons feel A1 or not? And why do it anyway, if the goal is to use them as an upper body mass builder, and going that deep takes the strain off the main tissues you're trying to work?

    I’d contend that bigger range of motion = more muscle gained. The problem is people not appropriately progressing the range of motion.




  • Cill94 wrote: »
    I’d contend that bigger range of motion = more muscle gained. The problem is people not appropriately progressing the range of motion.

    For hypertrophy, I don’t think so, once the shoulder rolls forward to compensate for going too deep, and the joint is compromised, you are getting very little by way of trade off for that. Work hard in the active range of motion, no need to exceed it.

    Worth saying though that could be talking at cross purposes because deep can still mean deep within active range of motion ... it’s not a half dip. You can say go deep but insist on no sagging.




  • For hypertrophy, I don’t think so, once the shoulder rolls forward to compensate for going too deep, and the joint is compromised, you are getting very little by way of trade off for that. Work hard in the active range of motion, no need to exceed it.

    Worth saying though that could be talking at cross purposes because deep can still mean deep within active range of motion ... it’s not a half dip. You can say go deep but insist on no sagging.

    Most of the hypertrophy research indicates bigger ROM = better for hypertrophy though..

    I'm not sure what you mean by the joint being 'compromised', or why the shoulder rolling forward is a big deal? If my shoulders roll forward in the bottom of a dip, but that's a position they're used to, why would that be an issue for safety or muscle gain?

    I've heard this concept of 'active range of motion' before. It doesn't make any sense to me. If you can push out of a position, your muscles are active and being worked more than if you went less deep.




  • Well, welcome back everyone... My first post on the new forum. I'm sure the migration was necessary but think I preferred the old forum for some reason. The 'drop down' menus at the top were very handy and they're gone for me now. Finding things seems to involve several more clicks now.

    I'm not sure that after a week away anyone gives a flying **** about continuing the discussion about dips, but I will make a few more comments anyway since I think it's a better topic than some that come along.

    I'm not hugely into studies/literature but yes I'd tend to agree that the overall takeaway is that full ROM is advantageous for hypertrophy in general terms. But when you get down into the weeds and look at exercise selection, specific muscles and how they interact with joints, and what we know is the main driver of hypertrophy (mechanical tension), then I'm inclined to believe those who say that for optimal hypertrophy there is a value in looking at mechanical differences in people, in exercises, in muscle groups / joints.

    The problem with 'active ROM' versus 'full ROM' is that the former is a term that always needs to be defined. I would define it as the full range of motion where you are effectively and safely loading a muscle with mechanical tension, and where the primary muscle you are trying to train is primarily what is under tension.

    On dips maximal tension is around the 90 degree point with full elbow and shoulder flexion. After that a significant amount of the tension is transferred onto ligaments and tendons, and if I bring myself to a true bottom position in terms of ROM I feel like I start to depend on the passive strength of my shoulder structure to a degree that seems pointless. Based on previous experience, yes I can go that deep into flexion and come out of it, but from a hypertrophy point of view there is little if any reward.

    If we take away the language of 'active ROM' I guess I would say that people should use a full ROM but keep in mind that if hypertrophy is the goal then keep the muscles they are trying to train as the prime mover.

    Several years ago I never would have thought in terms of trying to make what bodybuilders call a "mind muscle" connection, or to plan training in terms of muscle groups, but for hypertrophy I think it has its place. Identify what you are trying to hypertrophy, maximally mechanically load it and move onto the next thing. The caveat is always that this is if hypertrophy is the focus.

    I would say that drilling down into this means that programming needs to include enough isolation work to succeed for hypertrophy. The value of compound movements is undeniable in terms of the systemic effect they have on the whole body, and for strength building purposes, but for hypertrophy you have to start isolating.





  • It really doesn't matter that much. If people want to just go to 90 degrees then have at it. Work toward a 0.5x bodyweight dip and you'll have plenty of hypertrophy in the major push muscles. My preference based on research and experience is full ROM, but it's not worth getting into discussion of minutia over. Only thing I took exception to is the idea that going deep is dangerous, because that idea directly hindered my own ability to do dips pain free.

    Also new site design is shite.





  • Got rings a few days ago and my God do they give a burn. Ring dips and push-ups left my chest and arms sorer than anything with a barbell.





  • I'm hoping the new site is a temporary thing, that it's not the finished product. Because if it is, it's worse than what we had before from a user point of view, even if it's more stable.





  • I'm extremely bamboozled by the whole thing



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  • Does it matter much how long you leave between movements? Like much difference between say 5 mins and 20? Time between sets normal.





  • Not really. Prioritise the most important exercises by putting them at the start.





  • In terms of how many sets and reps you do, and how much weight you put on each set, is there an optimum way to improve the weight you can lift?

    My numbers are fairly paltry, but hey, I'm trying to improve - but here is what I've been doing:

    10 x 20kg

    10 x 40kg

    8 x 50 kg

    6 x 60kg

    4 x 65kg

    2 x 67.5kg

    And I can barely finish the last one on 67.5kg, so I'm definitely going to my "max" - but I'm struggling to improve what my max rep is. Am I doing too many warm-up reps or too many reps building up to my max (and leaving myself tired by the time I get to my max)? Is there a better way I can structure this?





  • I would suggest your volume is too high.


    Have a look a the starting strength program.






  • Great news, there is no optimum/optimal progression or loading scheme. Loads of stuff works and has been proven to work. Eventually you might find what works best for you but that takes a bit of experience and is always subject to change. I would try a professionally made programme. There's some good free ones for beginners like 5/3/1 for Beginners and GZCLP.





  • As a single workout, the set up there is suboptimal, but to be honest any one workout is not so important, it's what the broader programming looks like.

    If you are working up to a max double there, then yes, the warm-up sets there are too extensive. But ask yourself what the point is of working up to a max double - where do you go next time? What is actually driving adaptation and going to increase your max?

    (In some programmes there might be a separate day with quite heavy volume with the same lift, that's an approach... Or perhaps there is a lot of assistance and accessories designed to bring up the lift... etc)

    If you are not really sure then I would agree with the lads that it may be worth considering following something established and well laid out. A lot of popular programs are mentioned in the thread below.

    My person preference would be for people to run a 'linear progress' program like Starting Strength or Greyskull LP, and then next step would be something like 5/3/1 or Westside For Skinny Bastards.





  • if that was me, I'd be thinking 25-30 reps max ( I tend to think in 10's and 5's for reps) and space out the weight more , something like 10X47.5 , 2 sets of 5 x 57.5 and then 1 set of 5 x 67.5 , you would have more gas in the tank going into the final set so might get the extra reps, then each session or week add an incremental weight to one of the sets so that each week has progress





  • As Black Sheep said, just get on to a beginner strength programme. Less guesswork, more getting strong.





  • Question about 5/3/1 as I saw it posted here and I wanted to give it a try.

    It centres around the 4 main lifts, and says to work out 3-4 times per week.

    Does that mean the "Week 1" instruction for example is only done once for each lift? ie. If I start today with Bench Press, I do Week 1 and the next time I do Bench Press I'll be on to Week 2?



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  • So there's a few different templates of 5/3/1 and frequency of lifts can be changed for them. But yes most people structure it so that they have one bench day, one squat day etc a week.

    As an example the below is one of the most popular templates:

    https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101077382-boring-but-big



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