Dreading family reunion, havent spoke to brother in 20 years

wyrn

Dear OP, I don't think you were stirring the pot or looking for trouble as some of the previous posters have said. If that was the case, then you'd have chosen to do it a lot quicker than wait 20 years!

I know it wasn't ideal to approach him but I can understand why you did, you want / need closure and sadly now you have it. You didn't cause a scene. If your brother really had a genuine issue with you, he wouldn't have shown up. I don't think this will ever be resolved. Take care of yourself OP.

ginandtonicsky

Ah ffs lads, this is the fella's brother like. We're not talking about some secondary school mate he had thirty years ago, we're talking about his flesh and blood, someone he should expect to at least have a standing with where family events aren't tarnished forever more by simply having to be on the same premises as one another.

Maybe OP should've read the warning signs, but in all honesty if my sibling acted this downright appallingly, selfishly and caused this much stress and turmoil to my family and my parents for this long over a fcuking drunken argument 20 years ago, I'd be saying a hell of a lot worse than "shame you haven't spoken to me for this long mate". His parents are elderly now, if he had a decent bone in his body he'd at least pretend to bury the hatchet for their sake alone.

Cut the lad some slack.

Anyway OP, for what it's worth no matter what way you look at this, you look like the decent mature upstanding brother in this situation and I'm sure your surrounding family will have well put two and two together by now. The fact that they've let him away with this juvenile nonsense without having a proper word for this long probably hints at the type of character we're dealing with here. They're probably sick of his sh1t too.

Shame you had to hear those disgusting words but as someone else said, blessing in disguise in the long run. Let this be your closure now.

con___manx1

Sorry to hear that about your brother op. I have heard so many scenarios like this in familys.
In my own family i have two members that live very close to each other and havent talked for years over a stupid argument.

If i was you i would have punched him at the birthday.
he would respect you more then believe me. If he went to the garda you could call him a pussy for the rest of his life and laugh in his face. Might aswell give him a genuine reason for his carry on. Your brother thinks he has the better of you now.
I doubt he would go to the garda with pressure from the rest of your family. He deserved a box at least. Only way to deal with a dirt bag like him.

joeguevara

Ye both acted out. You have your closure and time to move on. Easier said than done I know. This looks like it will never be fixed. Put your efforts into relationships that are positive for you.

Hope you are ok.

LegacyUser

OP, your brother behaved like an utterly despicable cretin who doesn't deserve to take up as much as a second of thought in your mind from here on out. Why on earth would you want to make amends with someone so vile, even if he is your flesh and blood? Exponge him from your life and be happier for it.

Big Bag of Chips

con__manx1, no.

Suggesting violence as a problem solver is just not on in this forum and will result in an instant banning.

How you think starting a fist fight at his parent's birthday party would somehow make this better is baffling.

I will not apply a ban this time, but please read The Forum Charter before posting in Personal Issues again.

lawred2

Devil's advocate here but sibling rivalry is complex. You were a good bit older. Were you always chiding in a similar manner to the event discussed in the OP? Even if well intentioned - it can be difficult for younger brothers to endure dominant older siblings.

That event simply could have been the reaching of a crescendo with him.

What was your relationship like before that incident?

lawred2

valoren wrote: »

Conveniently he says this out of sight and out of earshot of the rest of your family. You said you felt like you wanted to deck or strangle him. That was all part of a twisted provocation as what he said was very deliberate, nasty and cowardly said to you privately in order to inflame you into subsequently reacting publicly. He walked out before you could even register it or reply as he went back to the safety of the extended family. Calling you a c*nt is him projecting i.e. he is clearly the c*nt, not you.

If you did say or do something then you would simply provide him with ammunition against you, and you then very conveniently become the bad guy, the person responsible for 'ruining the night' and, in one fell swoop, you would also vindicate him for his prolonged decision at having to cut you out e.g. "See everyone! Is it any wonder we don't speak! etc"

You're well rid of him. I'd tell your parents what happened so they are up to speed, how you were provoked, how in future you won't even fart in his general direction and how close he came to ruining their night by being a stubborn, vindictive man. If you ever have to be in his presence again, make sure you have a witness.

Nothing at all 'convenient' about it as I read it. The brother was already in the smoking area when the OP arrived. OP did indeed goad his brother with some passive aggressive approach and the brother responded.

The only one out looking for this interaction was the OP.

Having read the entire thread, I feel it's a case of the OP wanting some sort of absolution for his own role in the now non existent relationship with his brother. Every story has two sides and it seems unlikely the relationship hinged on one night 20 years ago. OP wants to feel blameless.

I'm staggered that the OP expected anything other than the response he did get for such passive aggressive goading.

.......

qwerty13 wrote: »

You weren’t after reconciliation. You were after him to acknowledge that you were right. Or, possibly, for him to react badly to you pushing him, so that you could tell people what a bad brother he is.

^^ I agree with this.

Ask yourself honestly OP, what was it you were after? Reconciliation or validation?

And why? You havent had a relationship with him in 20 years - so why seek that relationship at all? Is it because you genuinely miss him and want to be friends with him, or is it just because you cant stand to have a person ignoring you and making you feel uncomfortable at family gatherings?

I think that either way, you can only move forward from this by actually moving on and accepting that he doesnt want to know you.

When you REALLY accept this, when attitude towards you doesnt affect you, it will make for a healthier situation all round.

At the moment you are poking an angry dog with a stick to prove to yourself that he will attack and then being upset when he does. Its not healthy behaviour and it is having a negative impact on both of you.

Let it all go. Let him be whoever he wants to be and let yourself be at peace not having a relationship with him. Allow him to become someone invisible to you, someone that if he makes a nasty comment its just like noise coming out of a tv with no meaning to you. And stop trying to interact. Just behave like he isnt there.

seamus

lawred2 wrote: »

Nothing at all 'convenient' about it as I read it. The brother was already in the smoking area when the OP arrived. OP did indeed goad his brother with some passive aggressive approach and the brother responded.

The only one out looking for this interaction was the OP.

Having read the entire thread, I feel it's a case of the OP wanting some sort of absolution for his own role in the now non existent relationship with his brother. Every story has two sides and it seems unlikely the relationship hinged on one night 20 years ago. OP wants to feel blameless.

I'm staggered that the OP expected anything other than the response he did get for such passive aggressive goading.

All of this.

I recall originally reading the OP and re-reading it today I feel exactly the same.

This wasn't a simple fight over a single incident that caused this break. It was simply the last straw for the younger brother who decided enough was enough. The OP is either too stubborn or two blind to accept this and insists on believing that they fell out over a single incident.

With a seven-year age gap I'm going to speculate that there was a longer history of negative behaviour, which the OP may not even be aware of but which festered in the younger brother and came to a head in that argument.

That the OP even felt the need to lecture his younger brother about his behaviour 20 years ago, and now felt the need to force an interaction despite multiple warnings not to, paints a picture to me, of someone who has a need to assert seniority or superiority and be in control of a situation regardless of whether it's appropriate.

This whole story is a "poor me" for the OP, who has apparently made no real mistakes, it was all justifiable, and it's his brother who has been unreasonable and horrible.

I call shenanigans.

Neyite

You know, when you say that you think it's over one minor argument some years ago, I think you really believe that but it's so obvious it goes far deeper than that on his part.

I've a sibling I'm not close to. For a while we stopped talking altogether- instigated by me. I was just sick of their constant selfish behaviour. I'm sure if you asked them what happened they would say it happened over something minor and I just overreacted. The fact is it came about from a lifetime of poor treatment from them and I just had had enough of putting out the hand to be friendly or nice and getting shafted and hurt in small ways each and every time. These days we talk a little, but wouldn't be friends.

So maybe you should look at exactly what you did to him. Not just that one argument which you feel he overreacted to, but all the other interactions you've had over the years - right from childhood, because you might find the answers there.

tretorn

The party was about your parents and not you.

You should have let your brother smoke in peace and gone outside yourself, did you wait for your chance to get him on his own or was it co incidential that you went for a smoke the same time as him.

He loathes you for whatever reason and he intends to carry the grudge until the day you or he dies.

Stay away from him completely now, whatever you said or did to him at eighteen must have been bad. He was only a teenager and he didnt intend to injure your Dad, most teenagers come home drunk at some stage and it was your parents home so there role to deal with this and not yours.

Call me Al

I can understand why you want to repair your relationship. He's your brother and nothing will change that. But this sentiment isn't mutual or requited. You know that he has blanked you with years when you've tried to interact with him. You were warned by your sister to keep away from him, and you ignored her advice. You were warned by people here to avoid him and you ignored that. He ignored you at the party repeatedly. And yet you still persisted trying to interact with him..
I don't care what you have fallen out over, or whose fault it is. Its irrelevant at this stage. You need to take the hints he's throwing you. Unfortunately he doesn't like you or want you in his life and rightly or wrongly he feels strongly about that. Keep your distance from him, don't provoke him again, or you'll end up feeling a whole lot worse about the whole situation.

wiggle16

The OP has done nothing wrong here.

It doesn't matter what was or wasn't said in this row 20 years ago. Maybe the OP did say something really cutting that he doesn't recall or didn't seem so bad at the time from his point of view. So what? It was 20 years ago and it was only words. He's reached out and apologised for it. Multiple times. There is only one reason they don't talk: his brother has decided not to have a relationship with him.

Blaming this situation on the person who has reached out and tried to make amends for 20 years, rather than the person maintaining the silence, is just casuistry. He won't even make up for his parents' sake. It's childish. And even if he doesn't want to make up, all he would have had to say was "okay, John, I hear you, but I don't want a relationship with you, I would rather move on and I want to you to respect my choice and leave me be" not this "p#ss on your grave" BS. It says everything you'd need to know about him.

OP I think you're better off. He sounds like a nasty person and not someone you should try to keep in your life. I don't know if I would be agonising over whether or not there was more to this. He is never going to engage with you or tell you what that was, I think it would be futile if I'm honest.
This is how he is. If it wasn't over this it would have been over something else, I guarantee you.

Best of luck and I hope you can forget about it and move on with your life.

lawred2

wiggle16 wrote: »

The OP has done nothing wrong here.

It doesn't matter what was or wasn't said in this row 20 years ago. Maybe the OP did say something really cutting that he doesn't recall or didn't seem so bad at the time from his point of view. So what? It was 20 years ago and it was only words. He's reached out and apologised for it. Multiple times. There is only one reason they don't talk: his brother has decided not to have a relationship with him.

Blaming this situation on the person who has reached out and tried to make amends for 20 years, rather than the person maintaining the silence, is just casuistry. He won't even make up for his parents' sake. It's childish. And even if he doesn't want to make up, all he would have had to say was "okay, John, I hear you, but I don't want a relationship with you, I would rather move on and I want to you to respect my choice and leave me be" not this "p#ss on your grave" BS. It says everything you'd need to know about him.

OP I think you're better off. He sounds like a nasty person and not someone you should try to keep in your life. I don't know if I would be agonising over whether or not there was more to this. He is never going to engage with you or tell you what that was, I think it would be futile if I'm honest.
This is how he is. If it wasn't over this it would have been over something else, I guarantee you.

Best of luck and I hope you can forget about it and move on with your life.

Neither you nor anyone else knows near enough to make such an absolute statement.

.......

wiggle16 wrote: »

There is only one reason they don't talk: his brother has decided not to have a relationship with him.

But the brother is entitled to not have a relationship with the OP if thats what he wants.

I dont have a relationship with my brother and if he said something to me like the OP said to the his brother at the reunion, a shaming type passive aggressive remark - Id tell him to fcuk off too.

wiggle16

lawred2 wrote: »

Neither you nor anyone else knows near enough to make such an absolute statement.

Which is a truism.

The OP outlined quite well what their relationship was like prior to this row. Anything posters add to that is speculation and nothing more.

It was the brother's decision to reject all advances and apologies. The OP has tried to make amends. So no, he's not to blame for the fact that they don't talk.

lawred2

wiggle16 wrote: »

Which is a truism.

The OP outlined quite well what their relationship was like prior to this row. Anything posters add to that is speculation and nothing more.

It was the brother's decision to reject all advances and apologies. The OP has tried to make amends. So no, he's not to blame for the fact that they don't talk.

doesn't stop you drawing groundless conclusions however

as for making amends

"Shame you stopped talking to me, it could have been fixable, im sorry for the row we had but im not going to beg for forgiveness Gary"

I wouldn't consider that a genuine whole hearted attempt at making amends

valoren

....... wrote: »

But the brother is entitled to not have a relationship with the OP if thats what he wants.

I dont have a relationship with my brother and if he said something to me like the OP said to the his brother at the reunion, a shaming type passive aggressive remark - Id tell him to fcuk off too.

There's telling a sibling to 'fcuk off' after such a confrontation and then there's "youre only a fcuking cnut, let me know when you die so I can p!ss on your grave". That's a pretty strong sentiment, it's the kind of thing a sociopath would say.

Per the OP if I had long tried to make amends and felt like I'd genuinely done nothing wrong I'd want to strangle anyone, sibling or no, if they said something like that to me as well. His brother feels strongly enough to say something that forceful, way beyond a swift 'fcuk off'. The OP has stated he's tried reaching out to him to no avail to understand what his problem is and got rebuffed. Is it just the fight they had? Is it something else? Is there any hope of reconciling?

So whatever his brother's problem is will be a mystery to the OP but he at least got some finality that his brother wants sweet FA to do with him.

wiggle16

lawred2 wrote: »

doesn't stop you drawing groundless conclusions however

as for making amends

I wouldn't consider that a genuine whole hearted attempt at making amends

I don't like the wording either and I don't think the OP should have approached him at all. He's outlined what he's done to try to make amends in the past. It's the brother's decision to reject them - to blame him is to make him responsible for his brother's behaviour, when he's not.
I don't see what's groundless about anything I said, I've based everything I've said on the info the OP's provided, that's all.

Anyway I don't think we are going to agree so I'm going to leave it there from my end.

....... wrote: »

But the brother is entitled to not have a relationship with the OP if thats what he wants.

That's absolutely right, and I've said that before myself. It's his choice. The OP is, in my opinion, not to blame for that choice. His brother's behaviour and vicious reaction does not seem warranted.

ginandtonicsky

lawred2 wrote: »

Neither you nor anyone else knows near enough to make such an absolute statement.

We know about the OP's actions to make amends throughout this 20 year Cold War.

We know sweet fcuk all about his brother's appalling behaviour being warranted because the OP was a bullish, brute of an older brother who wore his little brother down over time. That is pure speculative nonsense and frankly the reason why PI can be as helpful and supportive as a slap in the face sometimes to individuals who are experiencing difficult times tbh.

There's constructive advice and reading between the lines in a way that might sympathetically open someone's eyes to their own behaviour. And then there's projecting and finger pointing all over the OP because you yourself had a horrible sibling, and saying that a slightly passive aggressive statement after 20 years of shocking treatment by a sibling, is worse than the vile stream of verbal abuse that came out of his brother's mouth.

This is a 40 year old man we're talking about. It's scumbag behaviour, it's indicative of seriously aggressive hatred and anger issues and it's in no way reflective on the OP being a less than ideal brother several decades ago, not that that would make it OK regardless.

lawred2

ginandtonicsky wrote: »

We know about the OP's actions to make amends throughout this 20 year Cold War.

We know sweet fcuk all about his brother's appalling behaviour being warranted because the OP was a bullish, brute of an older brother who wore his little brother down over time. That is pure speculative nonsense and frankly the reason why PI can be as helpful and supportive as a slap in the face sometimes to individuals who are experiencing difficult times tbh.

There's constructive advice and reading between the lines in a way that might sympathetically open someone's eyes to their own behaviour. And then there's projecting and finger pointing all over the OP because you yourself had a horrible sibling, and saying that a slightly passive aggressive statement after 20 years of shocking treatment by a sibling, is worse than the vile stream of verbal abuse that came out of his brother's mouth.

This is a 40 year old man we're talking about. It's scumbag behaviour, it's indicative of seriously aggressive hatred and anger issues and it's in no way reflective on the OP being a less than ideal brother several decades ago, not that that would make it OK regardless.

I have two lovely sisters. No brothers. And no sibling disputes. But I do find the irony of accusing someone of reading between the lines while reading between the lines amusing.

The rest of your post is just as baseless.

Sibling relationships are complicated and rarely one sided.

No doubt the brother is an unstable individual and the relationship is clearly toxic but that's a pretty feeble attempt at bridge building if that's what the intent was.

December2012

I suppose it depends on whether you think talking to somebody who doesn't want to talk to you, when you've been told by those who know to say nothing, as making amends.

I don't.

The OP was, in my view trying to embarrass and pressure his brother into talking to him.

tara73

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]maybe it wasn't written in the most sensible way whoever mentioned first there could be 'a bit' more to the story than only this one incident 20 years ago between the brothers. That it could have been this one which broke the camels straw.
I think it's a very fair point to make. And I don't think anybody stated as a fact, it was an assumption, yes, but a likely one for some people. I had it in the back of my mind regarding this thread.

And assumptions are made in almost every thread, to almost every subject, countless ones, that's one of the nature of this forum as far as I can see it in all those years. why is this assumption dismissed as wrong, categorically, from you wiggle, as a mod... again?

I find it also strange to see it as 'slating' the OP and not being helpful. I see the opposite: To point out that there could be long lasting issues of his his own behaviour towards his brother during childhood is mature advice. Not everybody is good in self-reflecting, hence often the reason people open threads here..And nobody used the words bullish, brute of an older brother and so on.

Obviously the situation is stressing the OP out, so reflecting on all aspects why it came to this situation and which role oneselves plays in it is a way to get to the core and getting the OP maybe further than just telling the brother is an a**hole (which he obviously is, but regardless).

And surely, the OP is an adult man, if it's all completely nonsense we assume, he can dismiss it easily.

Am I the only one who thinks one mod is taking his role a bit over the level? 'Slightly' worrying imo! [/FONT]

OldMrBrennan83

Everyone's an expert on what happened now. Always blame the OP.

Big Bag of Chips

As this thread seems to have veered completely away from offering advice to the OP and the issue seems to have reached some sort of resolution the time has come to lock it.

tara73, I'm not clear on what you are implying in your last post and would remind you to not drag threads (even further) off topic by commenting on another poster. You're here long enough now to know if you have an issue with a post or poster report it.

OldMrBrennan83, similarly if you have an issue with posts, report them.