Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Tell me how

jochenstacker wrote: »

They either have a sub 50 IQ and can't see what these things really are about or they are marginally more intelligent than a houseplant and vote this way because of some sick desire to see the world burn whilst slapping themselves on the shoulder how edgy and clever they are.
So, pure, unbridled stupidity or barefaced trolling.
There are no other reasons to vote Trump, Brexit (or any number of right wing xxxxheads found in Europe).
Well, people believe the earth is flat, so truth and facts are irrelevant, you just dangle something shiny for them to latch onto and watch them go loola over some of the biggest bullsh*t the planet has ever seen.
Politics has irrevocably been damaged by liars, grifters and flimflam artists like Mr Trump or Farage and voters are so brainwashed by trash media that they can't tell the difference anymore between reality TV and politics.
They thinks it's a great laugh. It'll get much worse before it gets better, because you can't beat the fraudster with truth and facts anymore, so you have to sink to their level and just fire off industrial grade bullsh*t and hope someone will fall for it.

Some portion of them, yes, but the percentage which are voting for this cannot all be said to be doing so because of an incapacity to understand what is going on.

jochenstacker

Tell me how wrote: »

Some portion of them, yes, but the percentage which are voting for this cannot all be said to be doing so because of an incapacity to understand what is going on.

Yes, they're the ones who vote for that sh*t knowing exactly what they're doing. They're almost worse.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're making a joke of it, Capt'n but Farage is just doing what authoritarians do - peddling simple solutions while pushing his own agenda not to mention profiting handsomely in the process:

https://twitter.com/ianbirrell/status/1127113096173117440?s=19

If Farage thought a manifesto would enhance his electability, we would have one. Instead, he's asking for carte blanche to wield electoral power as he sees fit. This is not something which ends well for democracies when their electorates choose this path.

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole but it looks like Claire Fox, the Brexit party candidate for the northwest has defended the IRA bombing of Warrington in 1993. Farage has of course claimed conspiracy.

https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1127506706538352640

Shelga

Also, with climate change so prominent in the news, why does no one ever mention the point that it is irresponsible and patently stupid to try to increase trade with somewhere like Australia, at the expense of trade with your next door neighbour?

Would be interesting to see the additional carbon footprint and transport costs generated by importing 100 tonnes of lamb to the UK from Australia instead of Ireland.

20silkcut

Tell me how wrote: »

Some portion of them, yes, but the percentage which are voting for this cannot all be said to be doing so because of an incapacity to understand what is going on.

Having spent time in the north of England a few years ago a lot of people really hate what their country has become. They really hate London. A lot of them have never been there and never will. They really don’t care what becomes of their country because as far as they are concerned the apocalypse happened 40 years ago. Everything was great in the past the present is meh at best.
And their country is full of foreigners.
There is nothing you can do to placate that mindset.
We here in Ireland are coming from the opposite mindset of a bleak past and a much better present. And never having anything like the influx of foreigners they had. I don’t think we would cover ourselves in glory either if we did have that influx.
A lot of people I met in the north of England described Ireland almost in terms of a paradise of what England was like 50 years ago.
In fairness when a lot of them retire the first thing they do is get out of England.

Seth Brundle

20silkcut wrote: »

And their country is full of foreigners.

I'd love to know the percentage of those foreigners that are from former colonies or commonwealth countries

reslfj

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

... it looks like Claire Fox, the Brexit party candidate for the northwest has defended the IRA bombing of Warrington in 1993.

Farage has of course claimed conspiracy.

The local newspaper and the Brexit party candidate Sally Bate seem to think it was very real.


https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/17612997.warrington-brexit-candidate-sally-bate-quits-over-claire-fox-ira-stance/

Lars

reslfj

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'd love to know the percentage of those foreigners that are from former colonies or commonwealth countries

Every year since the EU enlargement i 2004, when the UK government actively invited migrants to come and work in the UK, the immigration from nonEU countries has been larger than the EU migration into the UK.

In most years quite a lot more came from nonEU.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

The EU migrants are working and have as a rule not move to areas in the UK with high unemployment except for needed specialists like nurses and doctors.

Lars

PS! Didn't Ireland receive a fair number of (catholic) workers from Poland between 2004 and 2008 ?

An Ciarraioch

20silkcut wrote: »

Having spent time in the north of England a few years ago a lot of people really hate what their country has become. They really hate London. A lot of them have never been there and never will. They really don’t care what becomes of their country because as far as they are concerned the apocalypse happened 40 years ago. Everything was great in the past the present is meh at best.
And their country is full of foreigners.
There is nothing you can do to placate that mindset.
We here in Ireland are coming from the opposite mindset of a bleak past and a much better present. And never having anything like the influx of foreigners they had. I don’t think we would cover ourselves in glory either if we did have that influx.
A lot of people I met in the north of England described Ireland almost in terms of a paradise of what England was like 50 years ago.
In fairness when a lot of them retire the first thing they do is get out of England.

Psst! We already had it ten years ago, and seem to have adjusted perfectly well.

ancapailldorcha

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Psst! We already had it ten years ago, and seem to have adjusted perfectly well.

I'm not sure that I agree entirely with 20silkcut's argument. However, I would note that Irish politics is inherently geared towards consensus building due to its use of the STV system. British politics on the other hand is based on a winner-takes-all mentality and has been since its inception. This means that the "losers" of an election and those who will never vote for you can be safely ignored as has been the case for many decades now.

Igotadose

Brexit, the gift that keeps giving. Lawyer's in the UK who have obtained Irish law licenses, must practice Irish law in Ireland. Lawyers had planned to stay in the UK and still be able to argue cases in the EU (via their Irish licenses.) But, the Irish Law society nixed that. Further, the EU has stated if a lawyer isn't registered at an EU bar, their correspondence with clients isn't protected by EU attorney/client privilege and can be seized.

https://www.politico.eu/article/british-lawyers-hit-trouble-in-rebranding-as-irish-after-brexit/

Just one of the many hundreds, probably thousands of issues still to be worked for Brexit. I wonder if anything's actually happening at all on Brexit, some discussion about getting enough votes to agree to the WA in Parliament. Enormous amounts of work left to do after that.

Strazdas

I suspect Farage's appeal is to those who don't like politics or politicians. Anyone with a keen interest in politics and who votes regularly would be unlikely to be taken in by such a charlatan, but to those who have zero interest in it and who are fed up with their lot, his vacuous soundbites will appeal to them.

ambro25

Igotadose wrote: »

Brexit, the gift that keeps giving. Lawyer's in the UK who have obtained Irish law licenses, must practice Irish law in Ireland. Lawyers had planned to stay in the UK and still be able to argue cases in the EU (via their Irish licenses.) But, the Irish Law society nixed that. Further, the EU has stated if a lawyer isn't registered at an EU bar, their correspondence with clients isn't protected by EU attorney/client privilege and can be seized.

https://www.politico.eu/article/british-lawyers-hit-trouble-in-rebranding-as-irish-after-brexit/

Just one of the many hundreds, probably thousands of issues still to be worked for Brexit. I wonder if anything's actually happening at all on Brexit, some discussion about getting enough votes to agree to the WA in Parliament. Enormous amounts of work left to do after that.

Ah no, that particular one I worked out about 2 and a bit years ago, as soon as I heard of the practice by the earliest U.K. solicitor-adopters of that ‘solution’ for mitigating the Brexit effect.

Been posting about it time and again since (« it’s not going ta work, ya idiots, because the law »...the irony!), in-between meetings about the topic at my previous and current firms, besides chats at Chartered Institute level.

Granted, being triple-qualified (Irish, British and EU (as in, at EU level itself)) and practicing in all 3 jurisdictions (plus a few more) does give a better understanding and insight into the statutory ins and outs of the situation, and such consequences, than being qualified and practicing in a single juridiction and emergency-looking for a spare professional wheel.

Incidentally, I know a fair few U.K. solicitors who voted for Brexit (some of whom eventually reg’d themselves onto the IE Roll), so if they can be *made* to lie in their bed so, colour me suitably humoured.

Lemming

ambro25 wrote: »

Ah no, that particular one I worked out about 2 and a bit years ago, as soon as I heard of the practice by the earliest U.K. solicitor-adopters of that ‘solution’ for mitigating the Brexit effect.

Been posting about it time and again since (« it’s not going ta work, ya idiots, because the law »...the irony!), in-between meetings about the topic at my previous and current firms, besides chats at Chartered Institute level.

How receptive were UK-based colleagues and professional acquaintances to mention of that perceived "loophole" being likely not to fly prior to your moving on ambro? Was it a case of following Emperor Farage and his new clothes or did most see past it?

Hurrache

Honda Swindon to completely close in 2021. It was announced earlier this year but they've found no viable alternative or reason to keep it open.

Leroy42

Hurrache wrote: »

Honda Swindon to completely close in 2021. It was announced earlier this year but they've found no viable alternative or reason to keep it open.

Of course there will be the continued argument over whether or not Brexit is to blame but to me that is largely academic.

The real issue now for Swindon, and the UK as a whole, is what is the plan? They continually go on about trade deals with non EU countries but is there an actual plan of how they intend to deal with the inevitable issues of changing the course of the economy?

20silkcut

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Psst! We already had it ten years ago, and seem to have adjusted perfectly well.

Outside Dublin we have had nothing like the influx.
Having lived in rural Ireland all my life it has not changed dramatically in terms of foreigners or racial diversity.
Rural England probably has not changed that dramatically either but the vast majority of England’s population is urban.

I’m just searching for reasons why England is such an outlier in terms of attitude to the EU. Besides historic British exceptionalism which should have been jettisoned by the revealing of the truth of Brexit over the last 3 years. But there is still a stubborn strong pro brexit vote with the crap consequences clearly stated.
I’m wondering was the brexit vote as much a vote on where England is heading than an actual vote on the EU.
Did voters interpret the vote as ‘Do you like the way England has been heading for the last 40 years??’
In fairness they never faced such an overarching question in the privacy of a ballot box before. Was the temptation too great , for a country that wasn’t happy with itself, to just throw everything up in the air and to hell with it,

Joe_ Public

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole but it looks like Claire Fox, the Brexit party candidate for the northwest has defended the IRA bombing of Warrington in 1993. Farage has of course claimed conspiracy.

https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1127506706538352640

To be entirely fair to Claire Fox, i'm certain she has owned up to making a grievous error on the Warrington bombings. That said, however, i'm not sure how much you can row back on a more than tacit endorsement of such truly unspeakable horrific acts. I heard her on bbc a couple of weeks back, still defending a libel her then publication was found guilty of during the Bosnian War in which it made light of claims of genocide. She has some truly odious views which i find very scary because, unlike Farage, she comes across an individual of some intellectual capacity.

serfboard

Joe_ Public wrote: »

To be entirely fair to Claire Fox, i'm certain she has owned up to making a grievous error on the Warrington bombings.

https://twitter.com/ColinParryPeace/status/1123669516846796800
Here's something interesting:

The Warrington Guardian wrote:

Fox, who lives in London, is a former core activist and organiser for the Revolutionary Communist Party.

I remember reading a book years ago about the far right in England. I was surprised by the numbers of the far right, who moved from or to the far left. Disillusioned and disconnected, they seek out the extremes it seems, and when one side isn't doing it for them, they move to the other.

An Ciarraioch

serfboard wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ColinParryPeace/status/1123669516846796800
Here's something interesting:

I remember reading a book years ago about the far right in England. I was surprised by the numbers of the far right, who moved from or to the far left. Disillusioned and disconnected, they seek out the extremes it seems, and when one side isn't doing it for them, they move to the other.

Spiked, the current alt-right website funded by the Koch brothers, is famously a rebranded Living Marxism - Brendan O'Neill was also a Revolutionary Communist.

An Ciarraioch

Lucid Talk Euro poll for NI - good chance for a Remain candidate to take the final seat, with the likely victor depending on the elimination order:

http://twitter.com/AlexKane221b/status/1127865821877895168

listermint

20silkcut wrote: »

Outside Dublin we have had nothing like the influx.
Having lived in rural Ireland all my life it has not changed dramatically in terms of foreigners or racial diversity.
Rural England probably has not changed that dramatically either but the vast majority of England’s population is urban.

I’m just searching for reasons why England is such an outlier in terms of attitude to the EU. Besides historic British exceptionalism which should have been jettisoned by the revealing of the truth of Brexit over the last 3 years. But there is still a stubborn strong pro brexit vote with the crap consequences clearly stated.
I’m wondering was the brexit vote as much a vote on where England is heading than an actual vote on the EU.
Did voters interpret the vote as ‘Do you like the way England has been heading for the last 40 years??’
In fairness they never faced such an overarching question in the privacy of a ballot box before. Was the temptation too great , for a country that wasn’t happy with itself, to just throw everything up in the air and to hell with it,

Searching for reasons ?


You don't have two we've explained for multiple threads.

The press. The press.

Lemming

listermint wrote: »

Searching for reasons ?

You don't have two we've explained for multiple threads.

The press. The press.

This ^^.

Considering that almost all of Wales and everything upwards from (and including) the Midlands has had little EU migration, where is all the hysteria about foreigners coming from? That some of the largest leave voting areas have negligible influx of EU nationals should not be lost on anyone.

Seth Brundle

Heidi Allen, the leader of the pro-remain Change UK party, has challenged the Brexit party leader, Nigel Farage, to a live TV debate before the European elections
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/13/heidi-allen-challenges-nigel-farage-to-live-tv-debate-before-eu-elections-brexit-party

Tell me how

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Heidi Allen, the leader of the pro-remain Change UK party, has challenged the Brexit party leader, Nigel Farage, to a live TV debate before the European elections
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/13/heidi-allen-challenges-nigel-farage-to-live-tv-debate-before-eu-elections-brexit-party

He will complain about the station, the timing, the chair, the make up of the audience, until there is no time to host it.

See Corbyn/May Brexit debate for indicator (i.e. it didn't happen)

Charles Babbage

20silkcut wrote: »

Outside Dublin we have had nothing like the influx.
Having lived in rural Ireland all my life it has not changed dramatically in terms of foreigners or racial diversity.
Rural England probably has not changed that dramatically either but the vast majority of England’s population is urban.
,

EU immigrants have gone to every parish in Ireland. While many immigrants cluster in cities there are Poles and Latvians all over the country. That is precisely why they are not a problem, as they mingle with the Irish people, drink with them, marry them, play on GAA teams.

Water John

The reality is those immigrants are in every parish from EU countries. But Silkcut can't see them because they are not visually different.

An Ciarraioch

Charles Babbage wrote: »

EU immigrants have gone to every parish in Ireland. While many immigrants cluster in cities there are Poles and Latvians all over the country. That is precisely why they are not a problem, as they mingle with the Irish people, drink with them, marry them, play on GAA teams.

Indeed, there's already been a Lithuanian who won a minor All-Ireland with Kerry.

Tell me how

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Indeed, there's already been a Lithuanian who won a minor All-Ireland with Kerry.

Irish Independent

From Laois hurler Paddy Ruschitzko to Mayo's Shairoze Akram: How immigrants are playing increasing role in GAA

Recognising those population patterns, the GAA has been keen to accommodate. This year Shairoze Akram became the first Pakistani-born player to win an All-Ireland when he helped Mayo capture the under 21 football title. Hearing Akram being interviewed afterwards in a pronounced Mayo accent offered a powerful message of changing times. Wexford hurling and football has unveiled Lee Chin, the son of a Malaysian immigrant and Irish mother. Each new example is helping to break down barriers and normalise the process of integration.

ancapailldorcha

Lemming wrote: »

This ^^.

Considering that almost all of Wales and everything upwards from (and including) the Midlands has had little EU migration, where is all the hysteria about foreigners coming from? That some of the largest leave voting areas have negligible influx of EU nationals should not be lost on anyone.

Yep. A picture is worth a thousand words:



A lot of the people who voted leave are older types who would be living in smaller towns or just have social circles of other people of the same demographic. I've relatives in North London who are exactly like this. All Tories and possibly a Ukipper. Barely ever associate with anyone outside their own circles and read tabloids constantly.