Is self loathing to the Irish...

Gimme A Pound

... nearly what it is to the Jewish folk?

Your Face

Christ

Woke Hogan

As my Jewish uncle in law once told me: "Jewish people are filled with guilt, Irish people are filled with shame."

freshpopcorn

Yes but I've seen it with other nationalities as well.

Deebles McBeebles

Your Face wrote: »

Christ

The Jews did a number on him, I wonder if that's where the self loathing started.

super_furry

Does that mean Roddy Doyle is our Woody Allen?

Apples and oranges.

banie01

Your Face wrote: »

Christ

Sure wasnt he a Jew and Irish!
The poor bollox!

Unemployed carpenter, living at home with the Ma who decides to go on a lads tour for his 30's and ends up crucified!

Technocentral

I hate self loathing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

banie01 wrote: »

Sure wasnt he a Jew and Irish!
The poor bollox!

Unemployed carpenter, living at home with the Ma who decides to go on a lads tour for his 30's and ends up crucified!

Had the same idea, you did it better!

---

As regards the topic: the problem both groups have is an inability to define the concept "self".

tayto lover

“What’s done is done and cannot be undone”
Live it up and never look back.

Feisar

While I view the starvation of our country the same as the holocaust, no we are not self loathing.

We were in the past to quick to doff the cap to the church/politician/local big man. I believe this is a throw back to penal times. When the British left others filled the power vacuum.

Self defeatist maybe.

jimgoose

Never! We would have beaten you with or without Fr. Fehily’s doping programme.

Zorya

Though anyone raised in the 70s, 80s and definitely before, would find it next to impossible not to have had at least some portion of self loathing battered into them, I prefer Brendan Behan's take on our similarity to the Jews, "Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis."

Auntie Semite

The aversion to Gaelic names by some in the Worst name thread is a good example of Irish self loathing/Cultural cringe.

Cienciano

This bullshít "self loathing" thing only exists within boards.ie and specifically after hours. It doesn't exist in real life.
Any criticism of something irish, no matter how mild,gets the "self loathing" comeback from a certain section of posters.

mad muffin

I’m not Irish. My wife is. I have not observed any self loathing in her family or extended family. Which includes her sisters husband, and his family and their spouses.

As a matter of fact I have only noted supreme confidence and pride in being Irish.

jimgoose

Auntie Semite wrote: »

The aversion to Gaelic names by some in the Worst name thread is a good example of Irish self loathing/Cultural cringe.

I think people in certain parts of the country are acutely aware of the practice whereby privileged middle-class idiots (of which I am one, by the way) seek to differentiate themselves from other privileged middle-class idiots by naming their offspring Saídbh, Sneachta and Cáca-Milis Ó'Flathúleath. That isn't self-loathing, that's telling gobshites to cetch a hould o' thimselves. :pac:

Zorya

Cienciano wrote: »

This bullshít "self loathing" thing only exists within boards.ie and specifically after hours. It doesn't exist in real life.
Any criticism of something irish, no matter how mild,gets the "self loathing" comeback from a certain section of posters.

Oh. I didn't know that the self loathing here referred to the whole culture, I thought by ''self'' it meant the lonesome individual wracked in the dark depth of the night with anguish and horror at one's own existence, past misdeeds, present failures, and future hopelessness, the sheets a sweaty tangle of stinking despair.

But you're saying it's just that we get antsy when someone doesn't like Tayto. Oh, okay, I see.

Auntie Semite

jimgoose wrote: »

I think people in certain parts of the country are acutely aware of the practice whereby privileged middle-class idiots (of which I am one, by the way) seek to differentiate themselves from other privileged middle-class idiots by naming their offspring Saídbh, Sneachta and Cáca-Milis Ó'Flathúleath. That isn't self-loathing, that's telling gobshites to cetch a hould o' thimselves. :pac:

Not to derail the thread but do you hold Polish, Indians or Africans to the same standard?

Zorya

jimgoose wrote: »

I think people in certain parts of the country are acutely aware of the practice whereby privileged middle-class idiots (of which I am one, by the way) seek to differentiate themselves from other privileged middle-class idiots by naming their offspring Saídbh, Sneachta and Cáca-Milis Ó'Flathúleath. That isn't self-loathing, that's telling gobshites to cetch a hould o' thimselves. :pac:

Your bastard! You leave my Calóg Sneachta out of this. :mad:

jimgoose

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Not to derail the thread but do you hold Polish, Indians or Africans to the same standard?

Those fine people can sort out their own gobshites.

Auntie Semite

jimgoose wrote: »

Those fine people can sort out their own gobshites.

Did it occur to you that people might actually like Irish names? Or may wish to reconnect with their cultural or ancestral past?

Maybe their motivations are entirely benign rather than them being privileged middle-class idiots who wish to differentiate themselves from other privileged middle-class idiots.

jimgoose

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Did it occur to you that people might actually like Irish names? Or may wish to reconnect with their cultural or ancestral past?...

Most of the people of whom I speak would struggle to reconnect with the toilet-bowl after overdoing it at Yamamori.

Auntie Semite

Another example of subconscious self loathing is the prevalent assumption that Ireland is an essentially useless nation that can not function on its own and needs the help of a superior outside force to run our affairs.
"We cannot survive without the Eu" 'We would fail without them' 'We were nothing before they came along'

I call it 'battered spouse syndrome'

From the British to the Catholic Church to the Eu.

Auntie Semite

jimgoose wrote: »

Most of the people of whom I speak would struggle to reconnect with the toilet-bowl after overdoing it at Yamamori.

Lol perhaps you should widen your circle of friends then.

Auntie Semite

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Another example of subconscious self loathing is the prevalent assumption that Ireland is an essentially useless nation that can not function on its own and needs the help of a superior outside force to run our affairs.
"We cannot survive without the Eu" 'We would fail without them' 'We were nothing before they came along'

I call it 'battered spouse syndrome'

From the British to the Catholic Church to the Eu.

"Essentially useless nation", you're in an audience of one.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Another example of subconscious self loathing is the prevalent assumption that Ireland is an essentially useless nation that can not function on its own and needs the help of a superior outside force to run our affairs.
"We cannot survive without the Eu" 'We would fail without them' 'We were nothing before they came along'

I call it 'battered spouse syndrome'

From the British to the Catholic Church to the Eu.

The problem here is that Ireland as a country has so much potential but too much fear to turn it into results. It's more of a kept-woman than a battered spouse.

jimgoose

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Another example of subconscious self loathing is the prevalent assumption that Ireland is an essentially useless nation that can not function on its own and needs the help of a superior outside force to run our affairs.
"We cannot survive without the Eu" 'We would fail without them' 'We were nothing before they came along'

I call it 'battered spouse syndrome'

From the British to the Catholic Church to the Eu.

You should have a bit of faith in yourself!

Auntie Semite

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The problem here is that Ireland as a country has so much potential but too much fear to turn it into results. It's more of a kept-woman than a battered spouse.

I agree, I think Ireland has huge potential but lacks the confidence to assert itself.

super_furry

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Not to derail the thread but do you hold Polish, Indians or Africans to the same standard?

"Not to derail the thread, but here, let me derail the thread with some anti-foreigner nonsense."

You're getting boring at this stage.

topper75

Sure how could anybody internally or externally loathe a nation where the minister for transport cannot drive, the minister for children cannot and has not had children, and the minister for the Gaeltacht cannot speak any Gaeilge.

I'd never live anywhere else.

Snow Garden

Auntie Semite wrote: »

The aversion to Gaelic names by some in the Worst name thread is a good example of Irish self loathing/Cultural cringe.

Ah now, many Irish names are truly awful.

Snow Garden

Feisar wrote: »

We were in the past to quick to doff the cap to the church/politician/local big man. I believe this is a throw back to penal times. When the British left others filled the power vacuum.

That still happens today. Most recent example was the Childrens hospital. Outrage at the cost/waste and brutal explanations by Politicians/HSE but at the end of the day we will all take it and pay for it via our hard earned money....and it will happen again and again....

super_furry

topper75 wrote: »

Sure how could anybody internally or externally loathe a nation where the minister for transport cannot drive, the minister for children cannot and has not had children, and the minister for the Gaeltacht cannot speak any Gaeilge.

I'd never live anywhere else.

And not forgetting the Minister for Finance without a bank account.

Good craic all the same.

Auntie Semite

super_furry wrote: »

"Not to derail the thread, but here, let me derail the thread with some anti-foreigner nonsense."

You're getting boring at this stage.

Anti Foreigner?

I'm saying that many who loath Irish names would have no issue with difficult to pronounce/spell foreign names..as it should be.
I actually like traditional names from any culture including Irish.

Church on Tuesday

Auntie Semite wrote: »

The aversion to Gaelic names by some in the Worst name thread is a good example of Irish self loathing/Cultural cringe.

I take your point but in fairness some of those oirish names are pretty dire, quite hurtful sounding to the ears and give off a very elitist vibe

DEFTLEFTHAND

The self hating Catholic phenomenon certainly has similarities to the self hating Jew.

Church on Tuesday

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I take your point but in fairness some of those oirish names are pretty dire, quite hurtful sounding to the ears and give off a very elitist vibe

For example?

(bearing in mind that there are approximately 12 Gobnaits in the whole country)

Church on Tuesday

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

For example?

(bearing in mind that there are approximately 12 Gobnaits in the whole country)

Fiachra, Feardorcha, Caoimhseach, Fachtna (have to picture the wind and rain when you spit that one out) Conchobhar to name a few.

I have to say I really like the simple Seán and such other variants; it can be Irish but not obnoxious for the sake of it.

Church on Tuesday

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Fiachra, Feardorcha, Caoimhseach, Fachtna (have to picture the wind and rain when you sit that one out) Conchobhar to name a few.

I have to say I really like the simple Seán and such other variants; it can be Irish but not obnoxious for the sake of it.

Have never met nor heard of a Feardorcha or a Caoimhseach. Don't see the problem with Fiachra or Fachtna, but all you've shown here is that Irish names are no different to names in any other language, in having occasionally awful examples.

I can think of far more beautiful irish names than of bad ones. Sadhbh, Síoda, Tomás, Pádraig, Pádraigín, Fiadh, Saoirse, Oisín, Ruaidhrí...

But maybe I'm biased
- Tadhg

Church on Tuesday

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Have never met nor heard of a Feardorcha or a Caoimhseach. Don't see the problem with Fiachra or Fachtna, but all you've shown here is that Irish names are no different to names in any other language, in having occasionally awful examples.

I can think of far more beautiful irish names than of bad ones. Sadhbh, Síoda, Tomás, Pádraig, Pádraigín, Fiadh, Saoirse, Oisín, Ruaidhrí...

But maybe I'm biased
- Tadhg

Nah not at all, those names you've mentioned are grand and fairly common I think.

I've encountered from my list 1, 2, 3 and 5 and yes they were all bellends.

But at the end of the day, different stokes for different folks.

DEFTLEFTHAND

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Have never met nor heard of a Feardorcha or a Caoimhseach. Don't see the problem with Fiachra or Fachtna, but all you've shown here is that Irish names are no different to names in any other language, in having occasionally awful examples.

I can think of far more beautiful irish names than of bad ones. Sadhbh, Sa, Tom Paig, Paig Fiadh, Saoirse, Ois Ruaidhr.

But maybe I'm biased
- Tadhg

Believe me when you have an obscure ancient one it's a nightmare. People can't pronounce it, spell it, it's like a millstone around your neck.

I've been using my middle name since early teens. I still cringe when I need to use my first name. I'll eventually erase it through Deed Poll.

Electric Sheep

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Did it occur to you that people might actually like Irish names? Or may wish to reconnect with their cultural or ancestral past?

Maybe their motivations are entirely benign rather than them being privileged middle-class idiots who wish to differentiate themselves from other privileged middle-class idiots.

Perhaps some have that motivation. From my experience though it is usually class marking.

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Believe me when you have an obscure ancient one it's a nightmare. People can't pronounce it, spell it, it's like a millstone around your neck.

I've been using my middle name since early teens. I still cringe when I need to use my first name. I'll eventually erase it through Deed Poll.

is that in ireland?

I was referred to by my initials when I lived abroad, but it's pretty poor form if (after 13+ years of learning Irish) an Irish person can't manage to pronounce your name.

DEFTLEFTHAND

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

is that in ireland?

I was referred to by my initials when I lived abroad, but it's pretty poor form if (after 13+ years of learning Irish) an Irish person can't manage to pronounce your name.

Eventually people can of course but's it's just too much hassle initially. There's probably less than 50 people in the country with this name.

A recent thing I had was a woman ringing up from the Passport Office checking the spelling. :pac: It's just a burden to carry.

My mother wasn't a gaeilgeoir or anything, she gave it to me so she could be different to her other young mother friends (always had notions). I feel like an oul designer pet dog or something.:p

Gimme A Pound

Your Face wrote: »

Christ

Cool contribution but that thread "Can the Irish be trusted?" inspired this. Really, would many other nationalities navel-gaze re such nonsense?

The fact that someone actually asked the question in the first place, and predictably, the poll results contain a majority "no" further reinforces my point. Even if just on Boards.

Day in day out, there are constant posts about how sh1t "we" are (they need to **** off with their "we" and speak for themselves), "only in Ireland" and "typical Ireland" about things that happen *everywhere*, and worst of all, downplaying and dismissing even recent atrocities like Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy in favour of "what about the shinners". And referring to fellow Irish people as fenians and "Paddy" derogatorily.

Now I ask the question because the Jews are considered self loathing (kinda a tongue in cheek saying but with a grain of truth - at least they do self loathing in a hilarious manner) and I'm suggesting there's similar in the psyche of many Irish. And it certainly seems that way.

This is nothing to do with healthy self reflection/criticism (we should all do that) or criticising things that are Irish, very obscure Irish names (awful thing to do to a kid imo) etc - it's something much broader: a general sense of inferiority and referring to the Irish in shockingly bigoted terms, coupled ironically with arrogance (they use "we" but they don't mean themselves, just other Irish people) and cap doffing to their "betters" in England and the unionist community.

sbsquarepants

I've never really seen any evidence of national self loathing. It's usually just a lazy insult thrown around by some toss pot who just can't wrap their head around the fact that some people might prefer hip hop to diddly eye or just not give a rats arse that today is the 114th anniversary of big Jim Larkins first ****.

All cultures change and evolve, that's not self loathing it's progress. If they didn't we'd still be dancing around in the nip in the middle of some forest to make sure the harvest was good.
(Sounds alright actually, I'm in if anyone wants to give it a bash:D)

Gimme A Pound

You're the one being lazy. It's not about not liking diddly iddly stuff. Much much deeper stuff than that. And take a look at the "Can the Irish be trusted" nonsense thread - by Irish people. What's the bigotry towards their own people about?

sbsquarepants

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I can think of far more beautiful irish names than of bad ones. Sadhbh, Síoda, Tomás, Pádraig, Pádraigín, Fiadh, Saoirse, Oisín, Ruaidhrí...

But maybe I'm biased
- Tadhg

I've never heard that before - male or female?

I'm not a gaeilgeoir or anything, but I generally think Irish names have a nice ring to them - nightmare to spell, but lovely to speak.

Zorya

Today is the anniversary of big Jim Larkin's first ****?!?! Cripes! Why did nobody tell me, I've nothing in and my hair is a state! :eek: