Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

munchkin_utd

Duff wrote: »

Flying Ryanair to Budapest in two weeks and my o/h is now paranoid beyond belief. Am I correct in thinking they haven't taken delivery of their MAX8 yet?

indeed, they get one plane in April and then a couple more in May.
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0312/1035824-ryanair-boeing-737-max/

CelticRambler

mac_daddy wrote: »

My wife and I are due to fly to Providence this Friday with Norwegian. Currently in the process of booking new flights (at our own expense ). Not worth the risk with having two young kids left at home when you consider 2 out 350 operating planes have crashed. I suspect that Norwegian have not grounded their fleet as they know they would go to the wall if they did.

Daft attitude, IMO. The reported fault on the Lion Air aircraft is one that the pilots can work with. No-one knows why the Ethiopian aircraft crashed. None of the Norwegian aircraft have had any significant incidents. The risk of your children being orphaned by a dodgy 737-MAX is still tiny compared to the likelihood you'll be killed by an uninsured driver on the M50 on the way to the airport.

FWIW, my sister and a bunch of friends are all booked on that Ethiopian flight/route later this year. None of them are changing their reservations.

AlekSmart

CelticRambler wrote: »

Daft attitude, IMO. The reported fault on the Lion Air aircraft is one that the pilots can work with. No-one knows why the Ethiopian aircraft crashed. None of the Norwegian aircraft have had any significant incidents. The risk of your children being orphaned by a dodgy 737-MAX is still tiny compared to the likelihood you'll be killed by an uninsured driver on the M50 on the way to the airport.

FWIW, my sister and a bunch of friends are all booked on that Ethiopian flight/route later this year. None of them are changing their reservations.

Indeed,and by the posters own figures,there are 348 out of 350 still capable of flight ?

mac_daddy

CelticRambler wrote: »

Daft attitude, IMO. The reported fault on the Lion Air aircraft is one that the pilots can work with. No-one knows why the Ethiopian aircraft crashed. None of the Norwegian aircraft have had any significant incidents. The risk of your children being orphaned by a dodgy 737-MAX is still tiny compared to the likelihood you'll be killed by an uninsured driver on the M50 on the way to the airport.

Why do folks always throw up the comparison of being killed by uninsured driver? The stats here are different than the generic airline fatality measurements. Not sure if you have kids or not but that's when you re-evaluate risk a little differently.

jasper100

mac_daddy wrote: »

My wife and I are due to fly to Providence this Friday with Norwegian. Currently in the process of booking new flights (at our own expense ). Not worth the risk with having two young kids left at home when you consider 2 out 350 operating planes have crashed. I suspect that Norwegian have not grounded their fleet as they know they would go to the wall if they did.

That's ott. Lets assume each plane has now made, on average, 1000 movements, then your chances are 2 in 350x1000 = 1 in 175000 on it happening to you.

CelticRambler

mac_daddy wrote: »

Why do folks always throw up the comparison of being killed by uninsured driver? The stats here are different than the generic airline fatality measurements. Not sure if you have kids or not but that's when you re-evaluate risk a little differently.

The risk of dying on a Norwegian 737 today are exactly the same as they were last week.

Yes, I do have children (four of them) and if any of them were available to take your Providence tickets off your hands, I'd tell them to grab the chance of a bargain. They might get killed by a drunk driver in Dublin or be shot by the police in America, but they will not die in a plane crash over the Atlantic.

NH2013

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/boeing-737-ban-uk-airspace-caa-ethiopia-crash-a8819301.html?amp

Looks like the UK have just grounded the MAX, none allowed through UK airspace, also grounded by Australia earlier on today.

That’ll be quite the hit for Norwegian and TUI.

L1011

FAA actually moving to reassure rather than a wait and see approach is starting to look very off now.

Doylers

UK suspends the max

https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-to-issue-software-update-to-make-737-max-safer-11662753

Doylers

NH2013 wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/boeing-737-ban-uk-airspace-caa-ethiopia-crash-a8819301.html?amp

Looks like the UK have just grounded the MAX, none allowed through UK airspace, also grounded by Australia earlier on today.

That’ll be quite the hit for Norwegian and TUI.

Dammit you beat me :pac:

Storm 10

Doylers wrote: »

Dammit you beat me :pac:

That is a very serious move that will see the IAA follow up with the same ban

cnocbui

CelticRambler wrote: »

As raging_ninja says, an aerodynamic stall happens when there is not enough air passing fast enough over the wing to generate lift. Without lift, the aircraft falls out of the sky. The "default" setting is for the aircraft to fall out of the sky! The default correction is for the pilot to (try to) put the aircraft into a (steep) dive so that it falls nose-first, thus creating airflow over the wings, generating lift and getting things back to normal.

The problems arise when either
(a) the pilot can't tell whether they're "nose up" or "nose down" because the instruments are giving misleading information - or the instruments are giving accurate information that doesn't match information coming from other sources [remember that at altitude and in bad weather/nighttime pilots have few or no points of reference]; and
(b) the aircraft is so close to the ground that there simply isn't room to dive several thousand feet to get the necessary airflow over the wings.

I have stalled an aircraft many times - saying they fall out of the sky is melodramatic hyperbole. In a stall, the wings lose lift and so long as the plane isn't in a turn, the plane noses over sharply and enters a dive, which causes the airspeed to increase very rapidly - re-establishing lift over the wings and returning full control to the pilot allowing them to pull the nose up and to continue flying.

Doylers

Storm 10 wrote: »

That is a very serious move that will see the IAA follow up with the same ban

Would such a ban affect people with bookings? Will the be entitled to 261 compensation I wonder?

murphaph

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I'm not a flight expert, but it's worth remembering that there have been countless journeys completed on 737 MAX without incident. I personally flew on one twice last summer with Norwegian. The chances of anything happening are still incredibly small.

Hmmm, they have lost 2 of 350 delivered since 2017 (0.6% of fleet lost with all souls aboard). That's not a good statistic at all. You'd buy hundreds of lotto tickets if you had those sorts of odds of winning. I would not put my family on one right now and I would not advise anyone else to either. Maybe the 2 crashes so far are unrelated but if they definitely were then you can be sure Boeing would be publicising the fact.

Casati

CelticRambler wrote: »

The risk of dying on a Norwegian 737 today are exactly the same as they were last week.

Yes, I do have children (four of them) and if any of them were available to take your Providence tickets off your hands, I'd tell them to grab the chance of a bargain. They might get killed by a drunk driver in Dublin or be shot by the police in America, but they will not die in a plane crash over the Atlantic.

If Norwegian are the only airline left flying the Max, would that change your mind?

It’s a big cost to pay for new flights but it would seems that with half the Max fleet grounded or banned from flying that its not OTT to not want to fly on one

theguzman

The UK and Oman have joined the growing list of countries to ground the Boeing 737 Max. Ireland will surely follow soon, goodbye Norwegian after that.


EDIT; changed the word to be more precise

troyzer

Just on a related note with Norweigan and the Max.

Do we know why that plane was originally forced to land in Iran?

faoiarvok

theguzman wrote: »

The UK and Oman have joined the growing list of countries to ban the Boeing 737 Max. Ireland will surely follow soon, goodbye Norwegian after that.

My guess would be IAA will wait for EASA rather than make the call themselves.

Nijmegen

I would say the IAA will make your choice for you re flying on a MAX soon. Either you'll get something else leased in or you won't be flying with them at all. Norwegian better have good insurance against this sort of thing or they're in trouble.

murphaph

Casati wrote: »

If Norwegian are the only airline left flying the Max, would that change your mind?

It’s a big cost to pay for new flights but it would seems that with half the Max fleet grounded or banned from flying that its not OTT to not want to fly on one

Apparently pilots for Aerolineas Argentinas have refused to fly them and as such the company has grounded their fleet too.

Nijmegen

Seems Norwegian have bit the bullet. In Swedish but Google translate:

Following the flight in Ethiopia, Norwegian puts all its Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft on the ground temporarily.

theguzman

Nijmegen wrote: »

I would say the IAA will make your choice for you re flying on a MAX soon. Either you'll get something else leased in or you won't be flying with them at all. Norwegian better have good insurance against this sort of thing or they're in trouble.

Shouldn't Boeing ultimately be responsible for all this?

gordongekko

CelticRambler wrote: »

but they will not die in a plane crash over the Atlantic.

Both planes crashed shortly after takeoff so it's more likely to be over land

Royale with Cheese

I flew on one with TUI through UK airspace last month, I wonder will this screw a few holidays up.

Nijmegen

theguzman wrote: »

Shouldn't Boeing ultimately be responsible for all this?

I imagine there's arcane and complex contractual relationships that will kick in here alright, but you can't just magic 350 (sorry, 348) aircraft out of thin air either.

GM228

murphaph wrote: »

Hmmm, they have lost 2 of 350 delivered since 2017 (0.6% of fleet lost with all souls aboard). That's not a good statistic at all. You'd buy hundreds of lotto tickets if you had those sorts of odds of winning. I would not put my family on one right now and I would not advise anyone else to either. Maybe the 2 crashes so far are unrelated but if they definitely were then you can be sure Boeing would be publicising the fact.

The problem is that due to the way the statistics are computed the 737MAX has probably become the second deadliest fatal flight statistic after the Concorde which as we know only had the one fatal flight.

theguzman

Nijmegen wrote: »

I imagine there's arcane and complex contractual relationships that will kick in here alright, but you can't just magic 350 (sorry, 348) aircraft out of thin air either.

You'd be surprised at the amount of perfectly serviceable albeit fuel thirsty airliners sitting in Deserts in America which could be put into service again if needed.

GM228

Nijmegen wrote: »

Seems Norwegian have bit the bullet. In Swedish but Google translate:

Following the flight in Ethiopia, Norwegian puts all its Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft on the ground temporarily.

Sky News just stated Norweigan fleet grounded.

CelticRambler

Casati wrote: »

If Norwegian are the only airline left flying the Max, would that change your mind?

At the current time, no. If I was buying a plane tomorrow, I wouldn't choose one of these when there are other options available.

There's absolutely no indication that anyone knows what caused the Ethiopian crash, so it's pointless basing any decision to travel on that. If it turns out to be the same problem that caused the Lion Air crash, well, that's a known issue and there's a way to deal with it (as the crew flying the Lion Air aircraft did on the previous trip).

I would hope that Norwegian's pilots have all heard about the "Lion Air" problem with the 737 MAX's design and have at least read up on the steps to take to disable the problematic components, maybe even done a few hours in the simulator to practice their reflexes - but there are already more than enough things that can go wrong during a flight without adding speculative risks into the mix.

cnocbui

Other countries have grounded it because they probably have been advised by back channels of the flight data recorder findings. You wouldn't believe how quickly they actually get the contents off those after recovering them.