Mayo GAA Discussion - Part 4

MayoAreMagic

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I think Hennelly is much more prone to making an unforced error while in possession of ball.

We have never done anything overly amazing with his kickouts either tbh. When he came in for the final Dublin were actually winning a load of them before his unforced errors kicked in.

Re clarke, i think it is important to remember that kerry used a similar ploy against cluxton and he went into meltdown and shipped two goals. It isnt a easy thing to face into.

In reality there is probably too much riding on the kickouts in football in general at present. So much of todays game seems to revolve around it when it is in fact supposed to be just a restart in play.

happyoutscan

Lisbon67 wrote: »

Also hate all this criticism of Hennelly’s shot stopping, he’s every bit the shot stopper Clarke is.

I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

Hennelly nowhere near Clarke in terms of shot stopping, to suggest otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.

PressRun

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I think Hennelly is much more prone to making an unforced error while in possession of ball.

Most definitely. Clarke is a safer pair of hands and a stronger presence in goal. Hennelly struggles with his nerves, no doubt.
But I also believe that had Hennelly been in goals yesterday and had the day Clarke had, the knives would have been out for him again. Clarke avoids criticism because he makes great saves and is good under a high ball and probably because people just generally like him as an individual.
When Clarke has a bad day and we lose, it's the fault of midfield and when Hennelly has a bad day and we lose, he's made the scapegoat. The truth lies in the fact that neither is the perfect goalkeeper and both have played a role in hindering and helping our chances at different times. Clarke is not the sole reason we lost yesterday, just like Hennelly wasn't the sole reason we lost the game against Roscommon (despite what people would have you believe). But you would have to be completely blinkered to believe that the goalkeeper position isn't s persistent issue and something that isn't solved by simply putting David Clarke in there.
Now, I'm not recommending Hennelly take over the goalkeeping duties from here on out (though I wouldn't be surprised to see him there the next day out), but the debate is not cut and dry and more than one manager has thought so. Plenty of people in Mayo just won't hear a bad word said about David Clarke despite his shortcomings.
The truth is, imo, we are in need of a third option there.

MayoAreMagic

PressRun wrote: »

Most definitely. Clarke is a safer pair of hands and a stronger presence in goal. Hennelly struggles with his nerves, no doubt.
But I also believe that had Hennelly been in goals yesterday and had the day Clarke had, the knives would have been out for him again. Clarke avoids criticism because he makes great saves and is good under a high ball and probably because people just generally like him as an individual.
When Clarke has a bad day and we lose, it's the fault of midfield and when Hennelly has a bad day and we lose, he's made the scapegoat. The truth lies in the fact that neither is the perfect goalkeeper and both have played a role in hindering and helping our chances at different times. Clarke is not the sole reason we lost yesterday, just like Hennelly wasn't the sole reason we lost the game against Roscommon (despite what people would have you believe). But you would have to be completely blinkered to believe that the goalkeeper position isn't s persistent issue and something that isn't solved by simply putting David Clarke in there.
Now, I'm not recommending Hennelly take over the goalkeeping duties from here on out (though I wouldn't be surprised to see him there the next day out), but the debate is not cut and dry and more than one manager has thought so. Plenty of people in Mayo just won't hear a bad word said about David Clarke despite his shortcomings.
The truth is, imo, we are in need of a third option there.

I dont agree tbh. Clarkes 'mistakes' yesterday were generally 50-50 kick outs that our guys kept losing in the air. He kicked it down morans throat too many times, fair enough, but the rest I wouldnt be as critical of. We should be coming out with half of them at least - the tragectory is the same for everyone. They had an extra man pushed up in a high press so he had to go long a lot of the time.
Hennelly on the other hand is guilty of schoolboy errors that gift the opposition goals regularly.

Clarke is comfortably a better keeper. That doesnt mean he is infallable. Cluxton had an awful time of it against the same tactic, clarke done better than he did truth be told. Our issue is any time clarke makes any kind of mistake, we start talking about hennelly. We seem to expect him to be perfect for us to accept him as our number 1.
He is the best out and out keeper in the country. His kickouts are average - we should be able to deal with that trade-off

yop

Well that was interesting. Kerry did to us what we did to Galway the week before.
So many of the senior guys under performed, think Stoner had a post somewhere here which covered that.

Where do we go from here, simples really, 2 wins and see how the scoring difference is. We need Kerry to win next week otherwise we are goosed.

Legs look gone for the older lads, cover wasn't there on the bench to take the pressure off lads who have been out for 4 weeks in a row.
Think the subs introduced did well.
Kickouts were head scratching, when it doesn't work 3/4 times then don't repeat for another 10! That said the full press was on and the legs needed to get away from the markers to drop back just weren't there.

Kerry wanted it more, that in itself is a big factor, Moran, Clifford, O'Brien were immense. Hard live with that.

Great to see COC take the record, some of the commentary after was mind numbing, if its that easy then why haven't you or your county players done the same?

Onto Croker we go. Who knows what will happen.

km79

You know in some ways we are lucky to have 2 very good goalkeepers but in another way it’s a curse
Neither can really settle into team now. Always on edge .
Clarke will probably retire this year anyway and that will end the debate
Maybe then Hennelly might settle a bit but I don’t know if he will

I thought my comments on Hennellys brain farts were fair . It doesn’t mean don’t respect all he has given up for Mayo. I know full well the sacrifices players make and it’s especially hard for a sub keeper . I always try to be respectful of players so I apologize if it come across as disrespectful.
I actually thought there was a huge amount of disrespect shown to Clarke yday on the blog . I cross posted here and there in response to it .
Lads calling for him to be dropped for Slingerman as Clarke isn’t up to it , not a good keeper etc
That’s out of order too


I also gave Horan a free pass yday . Upon reflection he was AGAIN very very slow to make changes tactically and personnel wise .
Clarke was accused of being a rabbit in headlights in kickouts . The same could be said about Horan on the sideline . In a lot of big games now

And while we are talking about scapegoats........Harrison got absolutely ate alive by Clifford yday (as many others will)
Imagine if that was Ger Cafferkey .........
We need a proper full back next year. Harrison gives away too much in height and physicality to a lot of FFs

PARlance

It was me that posted that he was a rabbit in headlights during the game and I still stand by it. @KM79, I think you took this as me attacking Clarke. It wasn't an attack even though it might have read as one, it was more of an observation. I explained the rationale later on, I hold Horan to account for that.

Sure, Clarke could have a better kickout and sure we could have had more movement for short kickouts/better fielding for long ones... but surely Horan would have worked on various kickout tactics since he got back in charge. He should know this was a weakness that needed work.

It's frustrating because it's so bloody obvious good teams will be targeting us on them. Yesterday (Kerry's press) should have been no surprise to anyone in my book, especially not Horan.

MayoAreMagic

In fairness, I think it is a bit extreme to drop your fullback on the basis that he had trouble marking one of the standout talents in the game who was given a massive platform of possession out the field and his team mates allowed to put intelligent passes in to him unpressurised. What fullback does well in that scenario?

A lot of the time all harrison could do was stay goalside of him because there was too much space around to do much else.

In contrast, we had shane enright play a stormer yesterday, yet we know he wouldnt be an elite defender in general. Why? Because of the pressure on the ball coming in, and the lack of quality of it.

The answer to everything isnt drop drop drop, as enright just showed us

ToBeFrank123

In defence of Clarke, our midfield wasn't at the races yesterday.

Even going long, there's no reason why we shouldn't win 50-50.

I don't think its fair to pin everything on Clarke. We were second best all over the field. I'm not sure if any of the missing players would have made a difference, possibly Durkan and at a stretch DOC. Parsons too might have been a help. But we would still have gotten well beaten.

When Kerry are in a mood like that, there's not a whole lot you can do.

NabyLadistheman

There is not a full-back in the country who would mark Clifford in that amount of space yesterday. This is Horanball in full effect, absolutely no protection for the full-back line. We seen it in the league time and time again right up to the final. We seen it V Roscommon & Armagh so why would yesterday be any different? Kerry could not believe there luck, a little pop pass into acres of space. I felt sorry for Harrison having to chase Clifford around for the day with no assistance. If I played in that full-back line Id be questioning the manager and why he's not doing anything to help them out. Why was there not bodies brought back to stem the tide?!

blinding

Some of the new lads got a bit of an “ Awakener “ Yesterday .

Playing Kerry with their bit between the teeth was an Education .

Hopefully Diarmaid O Connor and Mathew Ruane are back for the next game . We need all the fit capable bodies we can get our hands on .

PressRun

km79 wrote: »

And while we are talking about scapegoats........Harrison got absolutely ate alive by Clifford yday (as many others will)
Imagine if that was Ger Cafferkey .........
We need a proper full back next year. Harrison gives away too much in height and physicality to a lot of FFs

I agree on Harrison. He's looked very dodgy all championship, imo. He is better in the corner.

ToBeFrank123

An effective sweeper on front of Clifford might have helped.

yop

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

An effective sweeper on front of Clifford might have helped.

Sometimes class is hard to live with, this guy since I saw him play schools, could be 5 years ago, on TnaG stood out as one of these guys who you see once in a decade. He has height, strength, pace, both feet and if you look at that sideline ball he left over the black spot, just pure calmness and quality.

All you can do is admire it.

Would a sweeper have worked, hard to know, he was "Given" too much room be the defense, but he is also one step ahead of the defender in his thinking.

Yesterday was a day we were handed our ass, a 100 things went wrong and feck all right, we move onto the next and leave that behind us, go back 1 week and 100 things went right. Find the medium and use it in the next game. I think blame after a game like this isn't going to do much.

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

Sometimes class is hard to live with, this guy since I saw him play schools, could be 5 years ago, on TnaG stood out as one of these guys who you see once in a decade. He has height, strength, pace, both feet and if you look at that sideline ball he left over the black spot, just pure calmness and quality.

All you can do is admire it.

Would a sweeper have worked, hard to know, he was "Given" too much room be the defense, but he is also one step ahead of the defender in his thinking.

Yesterday was a day we were handed our ass, a 100 things went wrong and feck all right, we move onto the next and leave that behind us, go back 1 week and 100 things went right. Find the medium and use it in the next game. I think blame after a game like this isn't going to do much.

I think it would ya tbh, isnt tha what a sweeper does? The lads kerry had dropping off seemed to do a fine job shoring things up. Its crazy to say you just admire it. Isnt that what we did with maurice fitzgerald in 1997?

One thing I will say, the kerry media gang played a stormer with talking about mayo cynicism and riling their own lads up about being bullied over and over. But it was kerry doing most of both yesterday, and our gang in the media would want to get their act together.

Also Im surprised there wasnt more about the ref. I thought he was really poor and kinda over-awed. Obviously the best team won anyway but I just think one of the top guys should have gotten what was always going to be a testy encounter.

Barlett

I certainly felt he made some questionable decisions in the first 20 minutes, if the game was tight it could have turned into a bit of a nightmare for him. All the bite went out of it as Kerry pulled away.

MayoAreMagic

Barlett wrote: »

I certainly felt he made some questionable decisions in the first 20 minutes, if the game was tight it could have turned into a bit of a nightmare for him. All the bite went out of it as Kerry pulled away.

Well I felt there was maybe a 5-6 points swing in his decisions, where clifford/geaney unbelievably got soft fouls in front of the posts and also where mayo couldnt seem to be able to get any frees and it often ended up being a turnover and a score down the other end.
Then the obvious black card right in front of the ref and he was just afraid to give it.
Now again they wouldnt have won, but the issue is they would now be 3rd instead of 4th. That could end up being a big deal for us.

charlie14

Stoner wrote: »

You need to beat Meath too. Wouldn't take them for granted based on the toothless performance from Mayo today, Meath lost by a big score but I'd say their heads are high as they were alright today.

Sorry to say that against Kerry it pretty much went the way I thought it would with Kerry doing a full press with Clarke in goal and forcing kick-outs to mid-field especially when they had Moran back.
Moran had a monster of a game, but a lot of that imo was due to Clarke`s kick-outs which were meat and drink to him. Vaughan looked away of the pace as well which didn`t help
Meath lost by 9 points but going into the last quarter were a point to the good. THey were well in it all day and it was only the fresh legs of the Donegal bench that opened them up in the last quarter to outscore them 1-07 to 0 -1. They are a dogged outfit that will not be too downhearted knowing they were well in it for most of the game.

jmayo

Don't post around here much so forgive me for daring to call a spade a spade.
The big thing I took out of Killarney is Horan hasn't learned much in the time he was away.
They were getting massacred and he waited until half time to bring on a single sub.
He waited another 10/12 minutes to bring on two more subs.
Make changes when it is going pear shaped, don't just stand there hoping the same stuff might work, eventually.

I know a lot of players were having off day and a few first team players are out with injury, but when things are going drastically wrong you can't just have a manager stand there like a spectator.

Also at half time realistically the game is gone.
They weren't at the races so chance of 9 point turnaround in football is slim to none. And slim was half way to Rathkeale at that stage.
Then protect some of your players for the next week and throw in guys off bench.

Was there ever a plan to deal with likes of Clifford and resurgent Geaney ?

Surely they have some plan to deal with kickouts when major press on ?
Well apart from hoofing it down the throat of one of the best high ball exponents in the game.

RedDevil55

jmayo wrote: »

Don't post around here much so forgive me for daring to call a spade a spade.
The big thing I took out of Killarney is Horan hasn't learned much in the time he was away.
They were getting massacred and he waited until half time to bring on a single sub.
He waited another 10/12 minutes to bring on two more subs.
Make changes when it is going pear shaped, don't just stand there hoping the same stuff might work, eventually.

I know a lot of players were having off day and a few first team players are out with injury, but when things are going drastically wrong you can't just have a manager stand there like a spectator.

Also at half time realistically the game is gone.
They weren't at the races so chance of 9 point turnaround in football is slim to none. And slim was half way to Rathkeale at that stage.
Then protect some of your players for the next week and throw in guys off bench.

Was there ever a plan to deal with likes of Clifford and resurgent Geaney ?

Surely they have some plan to deal with kickouts when major press on ?
Well apart from hoofing it down the throat of one of the best high ball exponents in the game.

The plan for Clifford and Geaney was probably the same as the league final, i.e. win midfield and keep the ball away from them. Boyle was sweeping a fair bit so not sure what else could be done?

The only way to deal with the Kerry press from yesterday is a Beggan/Morgan style kickout to our half forward line. Clarke isn't able to do that as everyone knows. However, he's great under a high ball and makes very few blunders in general. That's the trade off.

Loafing Oaf

RedDevil55 wrote: »

The plan for Clifford and Geaney was probably the same as the league final, i.e. win midfield and keep the ball away from them. Boyle was sweeping a fair bit so not sure what else could be done?

The only way to deal with the Kerry press from yesterday is a Beggan/Morgan style kickout to our half forward line. Clarke isn't able to do that as everyone knows.

Someone suggested earlier (I'm not sure how sincerely) having one of the outfield players take the kickouts. Is this a runner? Presumably the biggest drawback would be having one less player to receive the kick.

MayoAreMagic

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Someone suggested earlier (I'm not sure how sincerely) having one of the outfield players take the kickouts. Is this a runner? Presumably the biggest drawback would be having one less player to receive the kick.

He could kick it out to clarke, sure he is lethal in the air!

seligehgit

Have'nt watched back our horror fest yesterday nor the Sunday Game,rarely so inclined to watch very disappointing losses but more to the point I have read most of the posts re the Donegal Meath game and have come upon totally contradictory interpretations of the contest.

It appears Meath were giving the Tir Chonaill men loads up to the 60 minute mark.Donegal made the game safe post a number of substitutions.Verdicts on both teams performances veer between very good and poor and Donegal are mere lambs to the slaughter next Sunday?

Just want to get a handle on how I can possibly lift my overwhelming gloom to some sort of optimism in terms of acquiring the maximally optimum results for our wounded county men.

Ah I might just watch the Donegal Meath highlights.:)

TBH I think Donegal Kerry will be a cracker and we're really struggling to make up ground with our points difference.

Coillte_Bhoy

seligehgit wrote: »

Have'nt watched back our horror fest yesterday nor the Sunday Game,rarely so inclined to watch very disappointing losses but more to the point I have read most of the posts re the Donegal Meath game and have come upon totally contradictory interpretations of the contest.

It appears Meath were giving the Tir Chonaill men loads up to the 60 minute mark.Donegal made the game safe post a number of substitutions.Verdicts on both teams performances veer between very good and poor and Donegal are mere lambs to the slaughter next Sunday?

Just want to get a handle on how I can possibly lift my overwhelming gloom to some sort of optimism in terms of acquiring the maximally optimum results for our wounded county men.

Ah I might just watch the Donegal Meath highlights.:)

TBH I think Donegal Kerry will be a cracker and we're really struggling to make up ground with our points difference.

We're screwed on points difference already so i wouldn't worry about it, but if ourselves and Kerry win it comes down to a winner takes all clash V Donegal

Zeek12

seligehgit wrote: »

TBH I think Donegal Kerry will be a cracker and we're really struggling to make up ground with our points difference.

It's a really hard game to call.
I think Kerry will be brought back down to earth to a certain extent.

The two areas where they really flourished against us: 1) The kickouts and 2) midfield....will not be so easy this time.
Murphy will come out the field if needed to reduce Moran's influence.
And Donegal's kickouts have been consistently accurate.

Have a feeling Donegal will edge it. Really hope I'm wrong

km79

Anyone with a juvenile season ticket that can’t make Sunday and wants to keep their attendance up I will have someone to use it !
The juvenile tickets on tickets.ie are in section 301 which is likely to be far way from our 2!

seligehgit

Paddy Durcan has a quad injury according to James Horan.2-3 weeks recovery time so unlikely to make it for next weekend.

Very tight for Matthew and Diarmuid too.:(:(

km79

seligehgit wrote: »

Paddy Durcan has a quad injury according to James Horan.2-3 weeks recovery time so unlikely to make it for next weekend.

Very tight for Matthew and Diarmuid too.:(:(

He was at cul camp this morning
As he was all last week I think
Not a good sign !

PressRun

Zeek12 wrote: »

It's a really hard game to call.
I think Kerry will be brought back down to earth to a certain extent.

The two areas where they really flourished against us: 1) The kickouts and 2) midfield....will not be so easy this time.
Murphy will come out the field if needed to reduce Moran's influence.
And Donegal's kickouts have been consistently accurate.

Have a feeling Donegal will edge it. Really hope I'm wrong

I think Donegal will edge it too. Control midfield and starve the Kerry full forward line of ball is the key to beating them and I think Donegal will find it easier to do that than us. Donegal keeper is a huge asset.

Fr Tod Umptious

I really think that any progress out of the group will be meet with a pretty torrid SF v Dublin

The whole thing is catching up with them, the injuries, the backdoor, etc etc

Had we beaten Roscommon that night things might have been a hell of a lot different, but they didn't and they aren't.

On the Clarke thing, his long kick-outs are a problem, and something that Kerry targeted and other teams will target by making him go long.
But it's up to Horan and Co to come up with a plan B, and a innovative plan B, whatever that may actually be I don't know, I'm not a coach, but it depressed me yesterday to see kick out after kick-out end up in a Kerry attack.

If Donegal beat Kerry on Sunday that may be the end of us based on scoring difference etc.

So it's almost time to review the year

The league win was a great result, great to see some new fresh faces on the team too
Pity the bad display v Roscommon and the injuries ruined any chance of a strong championship challenge.