Civil servants - Politics

redmgar

Hi,

Can clerical officers help campaign for a political party in local / national elections?

carnie

No, civil servants are prohibited from engaging in political activity.

redmgar

cheers, I had heard that clerical officer grades were allowed. I was double checking.

uck51js9zml2yt

Clerical officers are allowed but probably not wise to do so if you want a career.

redmgar

Emmitt Repulsive Grape wrote: »

Clerical officers are allowed but probably not wise to do so if you want a career.

It would be frowned upon?

The Mulk

redmgar wrote: »

It would be frowned upon?

Depends what party is in power and what Dept./Organisation you're in.
A lot of people have progressed very quickly due to their alliances.

Larbre34

It would be frowned upon by the brass and consider someone from another party making an issue out of it for spite just to harm whatever group you are connected to.

The day job is more important.

Squatter

This is the relevant Finance Circular: https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/2009/09.pdf See Para. 13

redmgar

I wonder would canvassing be safe?

TaurenDruid

At CO level, go for it. As pointed out, there's a circular stating COs aren't prohibited from political activity. Leafletting, canvassing would be fine. Going on local radio and identifying yourself as a representative of X political party to state your party's view on something - probably not so much.

There were loads of public and civil servants involved in both the Marriage Equality and abortion referendums, and not just at CO level. What's the phrase the American military used? "Don't ask, don't tell."

PCX

Squatter wrote: »

This is the relevant Finance Circular: https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/2009/09.pdf See Para. 13

My reading of that is that a CO can be involved in politics but would have to get permission from their organisation first.

TaurenDruid

PCX wrote: »

My reading of that is that a CO can be involved in politics but would have to get permission from their organisation first.

Going by the letter of the circular, yes. In the real world, however, it's "don't ask, don't tell." The response from staff in... let's say one very large civil service HR area... to people asking "Can we canvass for Yes Equality during the Marriage Referendum?" was "No, you can't." A very large number of those same staff had Yes badges and postcards on their desks and a significant number were out leafletting too.

None of them would have been posing in social media photos after a canvas, though, or going on radio or TV.

hardybuck

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Going by the letter of the circular, yes. In the real world, however, it's "don't ask, don't tell." The response from staff in... let's say one very large civil service HR area... to people asking "Can we canvass for Yes Equality during the Marriage Referendum?" was "No, you can't." A very large number of those same staff had Yes badges and postcards on their desks and a significant number were out leafletting too.

None of them would have been posing in social media photos after a canvas, though, or going on radio or TV.

There were a lot of experienced staff who were deeply unhappy with what you've described above during the last two referenda. Not that anyone had a big problem with their standpoints, but that they brought them into the office, which is quite unprofessional.

The Civil Service, and civil servants, must leave their political views at the door when they arrive for work every morning. You must be prepared to work for and support the Government of the day. It's one of the key foundations upon which the service is built on, and one which sadly isn't the case in many countries where political influence in the Civil Service is significant. You will find it very difficult to remain impartial if you're out canvassing for a political party.

The CO thing goes back to an era when COs sat in a typing pool and stayed there for the most part. Now COs can be senior managers within a short timeframe the way promotions have gone lately

TaurenDruid

hardybuck wrote: »

The Civil Service, and civil servants, must leave their political views at the door when they arrive for work every morning.

Obviously.

You must be prepared to work for and support the Government of the day.

Work for? Yes, of course. "Support"? Eh, no.

hardybuck

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Obviously.



Work for? Yes, of course. "Support"? Eh, no.

That's a terrible attitude to take, no offence to you.

TaurenDruid

hardybuck wrote: »

That's a terrible attitude to take, no offence to you.

I think this might come down to text being a terrible means of communication. And what it is you mean by "support."

hardybuck

TaurenDruid wrote: »

I think this might come down to text being a terrible means of communication. And what it is you mean by "support."

That's possible.

By support I mean protect your Minister, and protect your Department. I also mean that if they, or the Government of the day, want to pursue something you disagree with personally, e.g. you don't agree with marriage equality but you've got to work on the legislation, then you've got to suck it up.

TaurenDruid

We're in agreement, then. :-) I took all of that to be covered under "be prepared to work for."

hardybuck

TaurenDruid wrote: »

We're in agreement, then. :-) I took all of that to be covered under "be prepared to work for."

Not really. If one of your staff told you they were 'prepared to work for you', you'd exactly be pleased with their attitude.

Anyway, we're getting off topic. Most people will tell the OP that this is a bad idea and they should strongly consider avoiding it, even if they can get away with doing so.

redmgar

So would most politicians come from outside the civil service?
The bureaucracy must come as a huge shock to them!

hardybuck

redmgar wrote: »

So would most politicians come from outside the civil service?
The bureaucracy must come as a huge shock to them!

The vast majority, if not all, I would say, come from other walks of life. An awful lot of them are teachers, and would be well used to it! But most would have been in or around politics most of their lives.

However, you can definitely see there is a skill to it - it is a profession. Some TDs, and some Ministers, are simply just brighter and more impressive than others - like most professions.

There are some TDs who get elected and think they can change the world overnight, and it's really not possible, you've got to work at it very hard.

You'll see Ministers who have loads of ideas that don't actually releate to their Department at all, and that can be frustrating for them. You'll also see some independent TDs who've become Ministers as their support is holding up a Government, and many of them just don't have the discipline for it at all.

TaurenDruid

redmgar wrote: »

So would most politicians come from outside the civil service?
The bureaucracy must come as a huge shock to them!

The vast majority of politicians come from outside the civil service. You can't run for office as a civil servant. On the other hand, as hardybuck points out, there are a disproportionate number of teachers in the Dáil - easy to get career breaks and they have their job kept open for them if they lose their seat.

hardybuck wrote:

But most would have been in or around politics most of their lives.

However, you can definitely see there is a skill to it - it is a profession.

In many Irish constituencies, it's practically the family business. More's the pity...

redmgar

Politics is such a broad term that it could include speaking at a local council meeting. I understand that the higher level civil servants need to be neutral but the lower levels are unlikely to experience a conflict of interest.

hardybuck

redmgar wrote: »

Politics is such a broad term that it could include speaking at a local council meeting. I understand that the higher level civil servants need to be neutral but the lower levels are unlikely to experience a conflict of interest.

That is utter nonsense. The rules are clear.

Squatter

hardybuck wrote: »

That's possible.

By support I mean protect your Minister, and protect your Department. I also mean that if they, or the Government of the day, want to pursue something you disagree with personally, e.g. you don't agree with marriage equality but you've got to work on the legislation, then you've got to suck it up.

A perfect example would be the absolutely despicable tax amnesty that Albert Reynolds and Bertie Ahern introduced back in 1993 to protect some of their cronies. This was reluctantly supported by Dick Spring's Labour Party who were propping him up. Revenue officials and management were incensed by the Amnesty, but they obeyed their political masters and stopped pursuing some of the biggest names in Irish business and public life. To this day, none of the names involved have ever been leaked.

It's 26 years later, but I still spit whenever I hear anyone praising Reynolds or Ahern.

Tpcl20

I was looking in to this recently because Hugh O'Connell had a piece in the independent recently.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/civil-servants-told-not-to-undermine-their-minister-or-policies-in-social-media-posts-40044836.html

It was brought in by no other than Charlie McCreevy.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/officials-criticise-ban-on-public-debate-1.1044947

A gagging order on civil servants seems dystopian in its nature and is extremely convenient for the government of the day, due to a huge cohort of people being unable to express their views or engage fully with political discourse.

It's shocking that no changes have been made. Where is FORSA in all of this? I looked up the representative mentioned in the article. Phyllis Behan sadly passed away last year. She had left the civil service some years ago to set up a counselling service. She seemed like a compassionate and kind person and it's a shame that she was not able to overturn this censorship of people on the basis of the job that they do.

hardybuck

Tpcl20 wrote: »

I was looking in to this recently because Hugh O'Connell had a piece in the independent recently.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/civil-servants-told-not-to-undermine-their-minister-or-policies-in-social-media-posts-40044836.html

It was brought in by no other than Charlie McCreevy.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/officials-criticise-ban-on-public-debate-1.1044947

A gagging order on civil servants seems dystopian in its nature and is extremely convenient for the government of the day, due to a huge cohort of people being unable to express their views or engage fully with political discourse.

It's shocking that no changes have been made. Where is FORSA in all of this? I looked up the representative mentioned in the article. Phyllis Behan sadly passed away last year. She had left the civil service some years ago to set up a counselling service. She seemed like a compassionate and kind person and it's a shame that she was not able to overturn this censorship of people on the basis of the job that they do.

The role of civil servants is to conscientiously serve the Government of the day, advise on policy and remain completely independent and impartial in doing so.

If civil servants didn't demonstrate reserve, or were seen to publicly undermine the Minister/Government in the media, then the Civil Service would lose an awful lot of the independence and impartiality.

People agree to these when they join, or get promoted above CO, so if you're not happy with that it mightn't be the best career for you.

TaurenDruid

Fórsa aren't exactly the most militant of unions, and have different priorities.

People agree to these when they join, or get promoted above CO, so if you're not happy with that it mightn't be the best career for you.

Or, more likely, you keep your opinions mostly to yourself, and work away, in the knowledge that you're unlikely to ever end up working in a policy area that you're invested in. There are, of course, exceptions - I can think of one senior civil servant, for example, who has been completely open about their very old-fashioned, very very Roman Catholic outlook on life, on various social media platforms, and who was known to be working in an area where their opinions could influence policy. They're no longer working in that area - presumably transferred as a result.

hardybuck

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Fórsa aren't exactly the most militant of unions, and have different priorities.



Or, more likely, you keep your opinions mostly to yourself, and work away, in the knowledge that you're unlikely to ever end up working in a policy area that you're invested in. There are, of course, exceptions - I can think of one senior civil servant, for example, who has been completely open about their very old-fashioned, very very Roman Catholic outlook on life, on various social media platforms, and who was known to be working in an area where their opinions could influence policy. They're no longer working in that area - presumably transferred as a result.

Forsa are easily the most militant Civil Service union.

floorpie

I'm hoping to join the CS soon, can you tell me if this practice of maintaining impartiality extends down into everyday interactions? E.g. would groups refrain from discussing controversial political topics during the working day (where it isn't relevant), or over lunch, drinks etc.

wench

floorpie wrote: »

I'm hoping to join the CS soon, can you tell me if this practice of maintaining impartiality extends down into everyday interactions? E.g. would groups refrain from discussing controversial political topics during the working day (where it isn't relevant), or over lunch, drinks etc.

The general approach is to agree that whoever is in govt are a shower of gobsh!tes, and then you move on to sport.

floorpie

wench wrote: »

The general approach is to agree that whoever is in govt are a shower of gobsh!tes, and then you move on to sport.

TaurenDruid

hardybuck wrote: »

Forsa are easily the most militant Civil Service union.

When were they last on strike?

I'll wait...

yabadabado

TaurenDruid wrote: »

When were they last on strike?

I'll wait...

That's not much of a metric to use,they were only formed 3 years ago.

Mrs OBumble

floorpie wrote: »

I'm hoping to join the CS soon, can you tell me if this practice of maintaining impartiality extends down into everyday interactions? E.g. would groups refrain from discussing controversial political topics during the working day (where it isn't relevant), or over lunch, drinks etc.

I would not discuss controversial topics over lunch etc in ANY workplace.

floorpie

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I would not discuss controversial topics over lunch etc in ANY workplace.

I totally agree. That's why I'm hoping posters would say "yes, discussing politics for fun is disallowed", because I think it's becoming commonplace elsewhere and I dislike it.

TaurenDruid

yabadabado wrote: »

That's not much of a metric to use,they were only formed 3 years ago.

And the CPSU, Impact and PSEU? (Are the AHCPS amalgamated with them, too?)

hardybuck

TaurenDruid wrote: »

When were they last on strike?

I'll wait...

I'll say you'll be waiting a while for any Civil Service unions to go on strike. They've been waiving their right to do so, on the instruction of their members, for at least the last 13 years.

RobynByrd

What about taking part in demonstrations such calling for an end to the violence in Gaza?