WRU move to kill off Ospreys

awec

Random Bloke wrote: »

If the merger takes place before the start of the 2019/20 season, as seems to be the intention, will the new North Wales team will be up and running at that stage? It seems ambitious, if that's the plan.
Could we have a Pro 13 tournament, and would the conference system remain?

I believe Wales have to provide 4 teams, so if they do get rid of Ospreys they'll have to enter another team.

There won't be a pro13. I think a setup with conferences and an odd number of teams is a level of daft that not even our league would implement.

molloyjh

Random Bloke wrote: »

If the merger takes place before the start of the 2019/20 season, as seems to be the intention, will the new North Wales team will be up and running at that stage? It seems ambitious, if that's the plan.
Could we have a Pro 13 tournament, and would the conference system remain?

The north Wales team already exists in some form. They’re called RGC or something like that.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

The north Wales team already exists in some form. They’re called RGC or something like that.

RBC 1404. 9th in the Welsh Premiership.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

As I’ve said before, every rugby set-up has its issues. There is no perfect solution. There can’t be. At the end of the day though, what do people want? The French set-up that sees most French clubs nowhere near success in the HEC and the national team a farce? How about the English set-up where the focus is so much on money and “not getting relegated” that most clubs have struggled to develop the depth required to compete at European level and the English side has a tendency towards inconsistency? How about the Irish model, where success (defined by more than just trophies!) has been built at every level simultaneously despite having a fraction the playing numbers and budget of England and France?

The faults with the league end up being a strength of the system. And on that basis, that of the bigger picture, I’m personally more than happy with where we’re at. And the Welsh are looking to move in the same direction. As smaller countries we need to be developing more per club/region/province than the English or French, so we have to approach our league differently. Ignoring that crucial point is nothing more than simply missing the point.

Of course you are, you're a Leinster fan. The league structure and rules suits clubs like Leinster perfectly.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

RBC 1404. 9th in the Welsh Premiership.

RGC, molloyjh was right. Team name is welsh for north wales rugby, no idea what the 1404 is about.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

RGC, molloyjh was right. Team name is welsh for north wales rugby, no idea what the 1404 is about.

Ah yeah sorry that was a typo, I was trying to make a point that they're not even a top premiership side.

Also Owain Glyndwr became King of Wales in 1404, OBVIOUSLY, everyone knows that!

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yeah sorry that was a typo, I was trying to make a point that they're not even a top premiership side.

They're not a top premiership side, that's true. But it's only because they've only been semi-pro for ~10 years, progressing to the Premiership from 2 or 3 leagues below in that time-span.

They'd obviously be murdered by the Southern Kings U20s without a serious influx of players, but the WRU have been slowly putting this together over the last decade, so it'll be interesting to what happens.

Also Owain Glyndwr became King of Wales in 1404, OBVIOUSLY, everyone knows that!

Very much the original O.G. in those parts....

Random Bloke

awec wrote: »

I believe Wales have to provide 4 teams, so if they do get rid of Ospreys they'll have to enter another team.

There won't be a pro13. I think a setup with conferences and an odd number of teams is a level of daft that not even our league would implement.

I agree, and wasn't seriously contemplating a change to Pro 13. But rushing to cobble together a 4th Welsh team, who will be predictably rubbish, in order to balance the numbers, seems like something that will weaken the league.

There's being mumblings in the past about an English team (London whatever), or another South African team, or an Eastern European team, joining the league. Might be a better option, if timelines permit.

errlloyd

Random Bloke wrote: »

awec wrote: »

I believe Wales have to provide 4 teams, so if they do get rid of Ospreys they'll have to enter another team.

There won't be a pro13. I think a setup with conferences and an odd number of teams is a level of daft that not even our league would implement.

I agree, and wasn't seriously contemplating a change to Pro 13. But rushing to cobble together a 4th Welsh team, who will be predictably rubbish, in order to balance the numbers, seems like something that will weaken the league.

There's being mumblings in the past about an English team (London whatever), or another South African team, or an Eastern European team, joining the league. Might be a better option, if timelines permit.

I think you're missing the point. The inclusion of a Welsh region in the North is one of the main, reasons why they're merging other teams

Dave_The_Sheep

I'm vindictive and short sighted enough to really enjoy the Welsh tearing themselves apart.

Mal-Adjusted

CatFromHue wrote: »

you have Treviso teetering on the edge of that group as well.

How so? Treviso are 2nd in their conference behind Leinster.

awec wrote: »

this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy.

Eh, they can't all be at the top of the league you know? There's nothing wrong with being mid-table, especially with a league as tight as this years'. Conference A, 8 points between 3rd and 5th. Conference B, 8 points between 2nd and 5th.

MarinersBlues

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

CatFromHue wrote: »

you have Treviso teetering on the edge of that group as well.

How so? Treviso are 2nd in their conference behind Leinster.

awec wrote: »

this idea that cause a few teams hover mid table they are somehow worthwhile is a fallacy.

Eh, they can't all be at the top of the league you know? There's nothing wrong with being mid-table, especially with a league as tight as this years'. Conference A, 8 points between 3rd and 5th. Conference B, 8 points between 2nd and 5th.

You're missing his point.
They are all mince.
The fact that they are mostly doing well in Europe proves this - somehow.

Akrasia

awec wrote: »

RGC, molloyjh was right. Team name is welsh for north wales rugby, no idea what the 1404 is about.

The 1404 is the record attendance for one of their home games

CIARAN_BOYLE

While this seems crazy to many people there is a degree of sense. The North Wales region sells out their current ground for u20 matches. If they get a bigger stadium and keep that level as a base support they could outdo the region they are replacing.

The Welsh would I assume expect the merged entity to emulate Leinster and perform in the league and in Europe consistently securing a larger share of prize pool.

troyzer

Apparentely the Welsh government are the ones pushing all of this as part of some economic/cultural programme. They approached the WRU and asked if it would be possible to set up and fund a North Wales rugby team.

So from the WRU's perspective, it's not their own cash they'd be burning while waiting to see if it gets off the ground. Seen in that context, it makes much more sense.

The Ospreys are in financial ruin at the moment and they're the softest target

Drifter50

Gawd, sounds like a mess to be fair
Remember the other team that disappeared, Celtic Warriors was`nt it. What happened to them.................

sydthebeat

Why hasn't a merger between blues and dragons not happening been publicly explained ??

Surely that makes sense from a rugby point of view, from a geography point of view and from a financial point of view, seeing a wru have to fund the dragons in their mediocrity.....
It's not like the dragons have ever been a well supported team by fans in that region.... To all intents and purposes Newport fans don't have an affinity with them at all.

troyzer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why hasn't a merger between blues and dragons not happening been publicly explained ??

Surely that makes sense from a rugby point of view, from a geography point of view and from a financial point of view, seeing a wru have to fund the dragons in their mediocrity.....
It's not like the dragons have ever been a well supported team by fans in that region.... To all intents and purposes Newport fans don't have an affinity with them at all.

Newport and Cardiff are also both primarily soccer towns with a relatively small rugby fanbase.

The WRU does have a clear conflict of interest here with its majority ownership of the Dragons and its closer than normal relationship with the Blues vis-à-vis the Cardiff Arms Park.

Jump_In_Jack

Think Wales is too small to keep 4 pro teams going.
Perhaps 1 southwestern based in llanelli, 1 southeastern based on Cardiff, 1 mid and northern wales based in Colwyn Bay is the right way to go.
Scotland have only 2 teams like, though I’d like to see a third Scottish team.

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Think Wales is too small to keep 4 pro teams going.
Perhaps 1 southwestern based in llanelli, 1 southeastern based on Cardiff, 1 mid and northern wales based in Colwyn Bay is the right way to go.
Scotland have only 2 teams like, though I’d like to see a third Scottish team.

Rugby is nowhere near as popular in Scotland as it is in Wales.

And they already had both the Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds which failed.

Jump_In_Jack

troyzer wrote: »

Rugby is nowhere near as popular in Scotland as it is in Wales.

And they already had both the Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds which failed.

Scotland’s population and their economy mean that they could feasibly run a 3rd team, only issue is where to base it. Perhaps Aberdeen?

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Scotland’s population and their economy mean that they could feasibly run a 3rd team, only issue is where to base it. Perhaps Aberdeen?

Aberdeen have already had a team: the Caledonia Reds. Which failed almost immediately.

Scotland had four teams until 1998 and three until 2007. They weren't financially viable. Economy or not, very few people in Scotland give a **** about rugby. Edinburgh is the capital city and their team is one of the oldest in the world, they only ever get more than 5,000 or so at a Pro14 game when it's against Glasgow.

It cannot take any more teams.

Jump_In_Jack

troyzer wrote: »

Aberdeen have already had a team: the Caledonia Reds. Which failed almost immediately.

Scotland had four teams until 1998 and three until 2007. They weren't financially viable. Economy or not, very few people in Scotland give a **** about rugby. Edinburgh is the capital city and their team is one of the oldest in the world, they only ever get more than 5,000 or so at a Pro14 game when it's against Glasgow.

It cannot take any more teams.

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.
Conversely Aberdeen has the funding but not the popularity to sustain it.
Hopefully in time a 3rd team would be feasible.

But to get back to my point about Wales, I don’t think there is enough funding in Wales for 4 pro teams.
Perhaps as someone mentioned there is a new funding model for a Northenr team which enables 3 teams plus 1 not funded by the WRU.

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.
Conversely Aberdeen has the funding but not the popularity to sustain it.
Hopefully in time a 3rd team would be feasible.

But to get back to my point about Wales, I don’t think there is enough funding in Wales for 4 pro teams.
Perhaps as someone mentioned there is a new funding model for a Northenr team which enables 3 teams plus 1 not funded by the WRU.

The border region had the Reivers. It failed for various reasons, chief among which was that the SRU could not financially support 3 regions. It could have kept the Reivers, but it would have meant shutting down Edinburgh or Glasgow which ultimately had much more growth potential.

A 3rd team isn't feasible and probably never will be.

There is enough funding for 4 teams. There isn't enough funding for 4 competitive teams.

sydthebeat

heres a sneaky thought.......

WRU realise that welsh rugby cannot sustain 4 competitive teams....
they really only can finance 2 competitive teams and a 'development' team, but are tied into a 4 team contract with Pro 14.
so they come up with a 2 + 2 system where 2 teams are 'competitive' ie scarspreys and blues, and two development teams in Collie bay and dragons.
what they really want is to merge dragons and blues, into a stronger blues side, which they would see as an easy sell.
however this obviously would affect their 4 team contract.... so what they do is to decide that Collie bay, being their new shiny development team, is protected.... so that leaves a merger with scarlets and ospreys to create one super team, and foresee a future merger of blues / dragons as a second super team when the time is right to do so..

so they see rumblings of more SA teams wanting to get involved, and possibly a georgian team as well.......

great they think..... we can use their inclusion as an excuse for us to drop down to 3 welsh teams in a restructuring...... which is what we want all along

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

They're not a top premiership side, that's true. But it's only because they've only been semi-pro for ~10 years, progressing to the Premiership from 2 or 3 leagues below in that time-span.

And after winning the Premiership they lost a bunch of players to fully professional sides too AFAIK.

Former Former

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.

At the time, it was an absolute given that the Borders would have a team as it is/was the heartland of the game, clubs like Gala, Melrose and Hawick would have been big suppliers to the national team.

It was basically the same situation as in Wales. Too many teams, one region absorbed by another, outrage among fans, accusations of Union bias, etc etc.

Luckily, the lessons of the past have been learned....

bob mcbob

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I just read a bit about Scottish rugby on Wikipedia and it seems the borders region in the south east of Scotland is where rugby is most popular but there isn’t enough funding for a team there.
Conversely Aberdeen has the funding but not the popularity to sustain it.
Hopefully in time a 3rd team would be feasible.

But to get back to my point about Wales, I don’t think there is enough funding in Wales for 4 pro teams.
Perhaps as someone mentioned there is a new funding model for a Northenr team which enables 3 teams plus 1 not funded by the WRU.

Yes the borders in Scotland are the heartland of rugby. The biggest rugby towns (Hawick, Galashiels and Melrose) have produced a lot of great players.

The problem is the population of these towns - Hawick 14K, Gala 15K, Melrose 2K

The population of the area is not enough to support a fully professional team.

The SRU are introducing a new league next year (Super Six) to focus player development on the next step down from Pro14. These teams will also play games against Welsh premiership.

A good idea except for where the teams are based 1 in Borders (Melrose), 1 in SW (Ayr), 1 in the centre (Stirling) and 3 err in Edinburgh

Digifriendly

Back in the days of international touring sides playing matches outside tests I remember East Wales and West Wales both playing the Wallabies on different tours. So how about West Wales (Ospreys/Scarlets); East Wales (Cardiff/Dragons) and North/Mid Wales team?

jasper100

How lucky we are to have had 4 natural provinces, albeit tried to kill Connacht.