Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102523#Comment_122102523

I wouldn't go as far as comparing him to Flaky Freddie. Poor man's Quade Cooper would be a fairer comparison.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102689#Comment_122102689

The latter reads way harsher

I mean, come on. You've read what I posted, put your own spin on it to fit your pre-determined outcome, and even after I've clarified it (twice) you're still using it as a stick to beat me with. This is not reasonable and it gives free rein to everyone else to attack me, even though I said nothing objectionable.

The Healy thing speaks for itself.

Could not agree more, pulling 15-month old quotes out of the air and claiming not to be upset by it says it all.

And these aren’t the only examples; Coombes “can’t do what the coaches want” but Frawley “maybe needs some luck with injuries”.

You'll have to talk me through this. You've put two completely unrelated statements next to each other, completely out of all context, to make me look like some sort of rabid Munster-hating Leinster cheerleader. Fair enough, par for the course.

But was I wrong?

We've just finished a Six Nations in which Frawley won four caps and for which Coombes did not even make the training squad.

I don't mind being hammered when I get it wrong but being "called out" for being completely correct is an odd one, I have to say.

*(of which you claim to be one, let’s not forget)

I 100% am a Munster fan. You and I just define fandom differently.

Tipp1991

..

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102930#Comment_122102930

I thinhk you missed the whole point of his comment, as erudite as like to appear.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102930#Comment_122102930

There are degrees here; I think it’s completely fair to say the latter reads way harsher than the former, whether you want to call it spin or not…

For Frawley, how did he come by those caps? Because Keenan was…?? Injured. So, like you said, he did get some luck with injury. Good for him.

But with Coombes? No such caveats. Straight to “not good enough to do what Farrell wants”. Despite the incumbent 4 back-row players playing all but 30-odd minutes in the previous 19 Tier 1 Tests at the time.

It’s really harsh on Coombes in a way you weren’t willing to be with Frawley.

I stand by all of that.

I 100% am a Munster fan. You and I just define fandom differently.

So presumably you include yourself in “all” the Munster fans every time you make broad generalisations across the entire fan base, or across all Munster posters here?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102876#Comment_122102876

Love this detail YR, and is pretty in line with what I thought the perception would be. Always thought it was deemed Lowe was closer to an AB call up than JGP ever was?

(I don’t think I’d ever denigrate any young player to the extent of calling them “absolute shite”, just seems way too harsh to me).

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103292#Comment_122103292

Wonder did Hurricanes fans at the time shift blame JGP moving on the AB coaches for not capture capping him, despite him being way down the depth chart?

Did those Hurricane fans keep bringing up JGP leaving at every opportunity going on a year and a half after it was announced?

I'd suspect Hurricanes fans acted like normal fans, were probably a bit disappointed to be losing depth and his potential but understood that JGP's pathway was quite blocked and moving was a good opportunity for him for his pocket, game time, and international recognition.

If you're talking about equivalences then maybe also look at the fan reaction too and see which one seems strange.

phog

Squad Update

On the injury front, John Hodnett is continuing to rehab from a leg injury and will be unavailable this weekend.

Josh Wycherley is following the graduated return to play protocols and his availability will be determined later in the week.

There is good news for Liam Coombes as he returns to training following a shoulder injury.

Academy player Brian Gleeson has also returned to training following an ankle injury.

In player news, John Ryan has completed his three-game suspension for an act of foul play against Cardiff in March.

Continuing to rehab: Dave Kilcoyne (shoulder), Diarmuid Barron (foot), Roman Salanoa (knee), Jean Kleyn (knee/eye), Paddy Patterson (knee), Patrick Campbell (shoulder).

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102876#Comment_122102876

Well I hope he does well at Toulon as he has been an honest good player for Munster and will be missed, and never heard a bad word said about him the way he has conducted himself since he came to Munster and has been a good professional and wish him the best of luck with the rest of his career.

Podge_irl

MOD: Ok, let's please drop the references to Munster fans doing XYZ in the past. The team threads are not the place for it. Anyone is welcome to post here, but we are crossing the line into antagonising and it's also a bit too much generalising.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101886#Comment_122101886

Somewhat bizarrely, you don't lose JIFF status by playing for another country so a couple caps for Ireland would even have been a blessing for Toulon.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103258#Comment_122103258

I’m really struggling here

You’re not even disagreeing with what I’ve said, you’re just annoyed that I said it.

we’re agreed that what I said about Frawley turned out to be 100% correct. Ok.

If you think Coombes is delivering what Farrell and POC want, I’d be interested to hear what your basis is for that. Citing the minutes played by the incumbents is grand, but it overlooks the fact that Baird, Timoney and Pendergast would be the ones benefiting from injuries, not Coombes, so not putting in the caveat turned out to be correct. So again, I don’t see a disagreement.

Has it ever occurred to you that I’m just commenting on rugby issues as I see them?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103664#Comment_122103664

this is an EU thing, you can’t discriminate based on nationality

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103693#Comment_122103693

Yeah, the IRFU only get around it because they own the provinces and thus they have a reasonable excuse for favouring Irish players. . By bizarre I more just meant an unusual quirk I guess.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103679#Comment_122103679

but it overlooks the fact that Baird, Timoney and Pendergast would be the ones benefiting from an injuries, not Coombes

While I think you're probably right, to be fair we don't know that. Farrell has shown he is perfectly willing to pull people from outside a squad to cover specific positions etc. There is a difference between being the 6th backrow in a squad and the backup to start if someone goes down.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103729#Comment_122103729

Nope. They can choose who they want to hire or not hire. No rugby player is entitled to a contract from the IRFU/provinces. How the IRFU arrive at those decisions is entirely upto them.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103754#Comment_122103754

Yeah, that's not how it works. You could make that statement about basically every single discrimination claim.

The IRFU are not subtle about their requirements, they can do it only because of the fact they can take eligibility for the National team into consideration as they also own the provinces.

Lost Ormond

Munster A playing a North munster clubs xv in Old Crescent Friday night

Good chance for some clubs players to go up against contracted players and will be interesting to see.

phog

I wonder who will play for Munster A, as they're playing a club selection I assume Munster will stick to academy players but might use it for someone like Liam Coombes if he's ready to play some rugby just to give him game time

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102876#Comment_122102876

It just shows the difference in how teams look at talent and how fans tend to do. Teams look at JGP and Frisch and see tools that can be honed into great players with coaching. That's why a french team was willing to pay so much in a fee and wages to buy him out.

Fans tend to look so much at form, mistakes, who is currently being selected way too much when assigning 'value' to a player.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104052#Comment_122104052

I think that's a pretty charitable way of looking at it. JGP came to Leinster and was behind Luke McGrath for a number of years. If anything it was Farrell who saw his potential and he had nothing whatsoever to do with him coming to Leinster. I certainly don't think it was any masterplan by Cullen.

With Frisch, who knows how it will play out, but his JIFF status should not be underestimated as a factor here. Beyond that, 5th best French centre (or whatever he ends up being) in a 14 team league is just a different scenario.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104076#Comment_122104076

Jiff status alone doesn't get you that salary.
They obviously see upside in him as well.

Cullen is quite a conservative selector but at the end of the day he did get JGP. And farrell recognized the tools more. Its also not supposed to be a masterplan. You just try to fill your squad with toolsy guys at varying levels of development and hope enough pop. Leinster's key advantage was having extremely well developed guys with tools coming from the schools. That has slowed down some.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103679#Comment_122103679

Because farrells wrong about coombes just like he was with kleyn. You dont see it as an issue because your team never has players that "dont fit the system" because the system is built around cohesion using your province

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104122#Comment_122104122

It doesn't and I don't think Frisch is a bad player at all. I think there is simply more money in the French game and more clubs looking for players. I don't think 330k salary is that much in the French ecosystem, but it is also far more than an equivalent player would get in Ireland.

JGP was brought in as depth behind McGrath and was seen as a useful player. We got lucky to some degree - it was not because they were looking at talent differently.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104258#Comment_122104258

I just disagree with this as a concept. There are useful players with more or less upside, and coaches try to get the former always.

Munster and Ulster are not that far below the french cap is the 8m per figure before central contracts are true. Next year they will be lower though.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104234#Comment_122104234

Coombes has been taken into plenty of squad, when he got a chance v NZ A he failed

Not sure why people think Coombes isn't been given a chance and if he was dropped into the team he would suddenly be transformed,

Players like Hansen, McCloskey etc have all been brought into the squad and then into the team. If they are good enough they play. So the "cohesion" line doesn't really add up does it? not that I expect you to agree

You want everyone to agree that the Irish coaching, including POC, have a vendetta against any player who doesn't play for Leinster, never mind all the times they have picked players from other provinces, brought them into squad etc etc.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104309#Comment_122104309

I don't think they are far below the french cap, but there are 14 french teams so while the top players will be played similarly, you will have the next level paid more in France.

El Vino

I

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104351#Comment_122104351

I don't think they have a vendetta against Munster and other provinces but I do think the Irish coaches value the cohesion having a large contingent who play together for the same provincial side brings. This cohesion has been very successful, so hard to argue with but it means someone like Nash won't get a chance until there is a couple of injuries in their position. When he got to play he was clearly good enough at that level but Jimmy O'Brien would have been Mack Hansen's replacement if fit. The exception is when the player is so much better than the Leinster alternative like Jack Crowley you would be a fool not to pick him.

Ben Healy might have some limitations but I bet if he was in the Leinster back line he would look at least as good as Ross Byrne and have 10 plus caps for Ireland

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104481#Comment_122104481

True although there are also just more good players in france.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104234#Comment_122104234

sorry, hang on

The quote I’m being hammered for was that Coombes wasn’t doing what the Irish coaches what they wanted to see. This is a self evident truth and it’s a pretty mundane statement of fact (from a year ago) that is somehow being painted as anti Munster vitriol.

Whether Farrell and POC are right or wrong doesn’t change the fact that they clearly haven’t been impressed by Coombes these last 18 months.

Again, the “cohesion” argument overlooks the fact that Coombes seems to have been behind an Ulster guy and a Connacht guy in the rankings.