License application and the 3 month auto-refusal

alanmc

I have an application in since Dec 2nd last year. I found out Saturday that it hasn't even left the FO's in tray yet. So, I'm a little worried of how close to the 3 month limit I'm getting.

How hard and fast do the Gardai tend to be with this particular 3 month rule? The FO seemed to think that it was 3 months from when it went upstairs to the Supers office. I always thought it was from the date on the application.

Should I start pushing harder to get this application moving? Or is it more prudent to give a gentle nudge and wait it out?

garv123

alanmc wrote: »

I have an application in since Dec 2nd last year. I found out Saturday that it hasn't even left the FO's in tray yet. So, I'm a little worried of how close to the 3 month limit I'm getting.

How hard and fast do the Gardai tend to be with this particular 3 month rule? The FO seemed to think that it was 3 months from when it went upstairs to the Supers office. I always thought it was from the date on the application.

Should I start pushing harder to get this application moving? Or is it more prudent to give a gentle nudge and wait it out?

That 3 month thing is a load of bull, never listened to. Keep putting the FO under pressure. Ring daily if you have to, till he gets the finger out. After that ring the supers clerk and ask to make an appointment to see him. Then the FO will get the finger out.

judestynes

garv123 wrote: »

That 3 month thing is a load of bull, never listened to. Keep putting the FO under pressure. Ring daily if you have to, till he gets the finger out. After that ring the supers clerk and ask to make an appointment to see him. Then the FO will get the finger out.

Absolutely. Put the spurs to him or her whichever. Don't lose your cool though. Be assertive but not pushy.

freddieot

It's really from the date on the application form, next to your signature.
However, In the past I have had certs issued 5 months after the application date. I also never (ever) receive the first letters telling me it's being processed, but no harm as all I want is the cert itself.

It's not always a No or bad news scenario when the Cert is late, just poor administrative systems that probably frustrate the average cop as much as they do us.

Not much consolation when you're waiting though !

Chiparus

I always recieve my license before the letter telling me they have recieved my application.

cavan shooter

Lads if your an NARGC member and worried contact the fund admin, as he has smoothed over a couple of things up our way and lads are now licensed and sleeping better.

onetimecypher

Some supers and chief supers let the 4 months (3 mths + 30 days for appeal) in order to block your appeal. Judges have copped on to this and extend time in most cases. Your 3 mths runs from the day you hand in your renewals and they should confirm receipt of and that your applications do not require anymore details within 10days.

I think there is another illegal coup in progress to get rid of more firearms especially restricted ones.

Grizzly 45

Not if your Solicitor is anyway good, they won't. This is old hat , that we have seen in the oughties in DC courts. They might extend it once, with an admonition to the Super in question to get the thumb out. But twice or three times, the judge will probably grant the license himself,if you Solr is worth his salt.

Happened in Limerick with my 1st appeal. Three extensions and the Guards never showed up for any of them. The judge lost it with a new guy that was there on his first day in court representing the Cheif, with no briefing whatsoever and granted all licenses there and then.:)

Remember too, they now have the sword hanging over them, that if they lose, they are liable for costs as well.So they have to weigh up their cost of faffing us around too much. Costs these days, as I have been led to understand, have gone up a tad in our legal professions side into double figures ever since it has become statue legislation.

alanmc

onetimecypher wrote: »

Some supers and chief supers let the 4 months (3 mths + 30 days for appeal) in order to block your appeal. Judges have copped on to this and extend time in most cases. Your 3 mths runs from the day you hand in your renewals and they should confirm receipt of and that your applications do not require anymore details within 10days.

I think there is another illegal coup in progress to get rid of more firearms especially restricted ones.

I don't think this is the case in my local station at all. I think it's just the case of a new Seargent doing the FO role and getting behind at it.

I'll give them another call this afternoon and see if anything had moved along.

Bigman420

Waited 8 months for my first license, kept pressure on the FO and nothing was done so I went to the super and was told it was never given to him. After speaking with him I had it within two weeks

alanmc

After a few "drop-ins" to the station, I think the FO just wanted me to go away, so he sent my application up to the Super last week. Here's hoping it comes through soon. I'm at the 3 month mark tomorrow.

The FO still maintains that it's 3 months from when it hits the Supers in tray.

Regardless, it's on the move, so I'm not going to worry about it for another while anyway.

BattleCorp

alanmc wrote: »

After a few "drop-ins" to the station, I think the FO just wanted me to go away, so he sent my application up to the Super last week. Here's hoping it comes through soon. I'm at the 3 month mark tomorrow.

The FO still maintains that it's 3 months from when it hits the Supers in tray.

Regardless, it's on the move, so I'm not going to worry about it for another while anyway.

The three month thing is whatever they want it to be. There's no accountability in that organisation for not doing your job and processing the applications in a timely manner.

That said, I've had dealings with plenty of good, efficient Gardaí. Nearly all of my dealings were positive to be honest.

Probably like every organisation, some people are just lazy.

Cass

alanmc wrote: »

The FO still maintains that it's 3 months from when it hits the Supers in tray.

Only had this conversation with a chap in the last 24 hours, but it's been said umpteen times on the forum.

The AGS deem the process started or more accurately the application received when they begin to process it. So it [the application] can sit for a week, month, few months, etc. and when they start to process it and enter it onto pulse is when it's recorded.

Its why during the Dail hearings a few years back we argueed strongly against the claim from AGS that they process 95% of applications within the 3 month time frame. They record those stats based on what i've said above, yet the law says it's when the application is submitted (when we drop it in).

kay 9

Cass wrote: »

Only had this conversation with a chap in the last 24 hours, but it's been said umpteen times on the forum.

The AGS deem the process started or more accurately the application received when they begin to process it. So it [the application] can sit for a week, month, few months, etc. and when they start to process it and enter it onto pulse is when it's recorded.

Its why during the Dail hearings a few years back we argueed strongly against the claim from AGS that they process 95% of applications within the 3 month time frame. They record those stats based on what i've said above, yet the law says it's when the application is submitted (when we drop it in).

'The law's an asal' sometimes

lefthooker

kay 9 wrote: »

'The law's an asal' sometimes

It’s only an ass because of the interpretation that’s afforded to each Super and their reluctance to adhere to their own commissioners guidelines. All the work is carried out by the FPO, if and when it lands in his/her office. The super just needs to sign off.

One example, like for like substitutions. Should be completed by the FPO, no need to involve a Super. Surrender your gun to a dealer, bring details of the new gun to the FPO, he logs them onto the system. Job done. Go collect your gun. No faffing around for weeks or months without your licensed firearm.

Another current speed bump is the large number of renewals bring processed atm.

Croohur

lefthooker wrote: »

It’s only an ass because of the interpretation that’s afforded to each Super and their reluctance to adhere to their own commissioners guidelines. All the work is carried out by the FPO, if and when it lands in his/her office. The super just needs to sign off.

One example, like for like substitutions. Should be completed by the FPO, no need to involve a Super. Surrender your gun to a dealer, bring details of the new gun to the FPO, he logs them onto the system. Job done. Go collect your gun. No faffing around for weeks or months without your licensed firearm.

Another current speed bump is the large number of renewals bring processed atm.

Sorry to slightly hijack the thread - I have never done a substitution before so not aware of the process. I ASSUMED you bought the new firearm and held on to the old one until the substiution came through, then you handed in the old firearm to your RFD and picked up the new one.
Do you mean to tell me that when you do a sub you have to hand your existing firearm in when you BUY the new firearm meaning you could have nothing to deal with foxs, crows etc until the AGS pull their finger out and get it processed.
If thats the case that is barking mad.

lefthooker

Croohur wrote: »

Sorry to slightly hijack the thread - I have never done a substitution before so not aware of the process. I ASSUMED you bought the new firearm and held on to the old one until the substiution came through, then you handed in the old firearm to your RFD and picked up the new one.
Do you mean to tell me that when you do a sub you have to hand your existing firearm in when you BUY the new firearm meaning you could have nothing to deal with foxs, crows etc until the AGS pull their finger out and get it processed.
If thats the case that is barking mad.

In a word, woof woof.

Croohur

lefthooker wrote: »

In a word, woof woof.

Jesus H. Christ. And then they have the cheek to ask you why would you need more than one gun.
That makes no sense at all.

garv123

Croohur wrote: »

Sorry to slightly hijack the thread - I have never done a substitution before so not aware of the process. I ASSUMED you bought the new firearm and held on to the old one until the substiution came through, then you handed in the old firearm to your RFD and picked up the new one.
Do you mean to tell me that when you do a sub you have to hand your existing firearm in when you BUY the new firearm meaning you could have nothing to deal with foxs, crows etc until the AGS pull their finger out and get it processed.
If thats the case that is barking mad.

I was always allowed keep my current firearm, the licence is still valid until the new one is issued.

Cass

Croohur wrote: »

I ASSUMED you bought the new firearm and held on to the old one until the substiution came through, then you handed in the old firearm to your RFD and picked up the new one.

Correct.

Your license, for the old gun, stays in effect for two weeks after the sub to allow for cancellation, change of mind, problems, etc.

That bit aside you are still licensed on the old gun until the new license is received by you.

dc99

Regarding a Substitution - isn't that supposed to be dealt with within 14 days? not the full 3 months? (taking it that there is no change in caliber etc)

Cass

Yes.

It doesn't say whether it's 14 working days or not so allow them three full weeks (including weekends) and then after that you can start to call and ask where it is.

alanmc

Still no word on my application. I'm past the 3 months now. At the risk of pissing them off, I'm going to give the Supers office a call again tomorrow. It's getting a little annoying now.

BryanL

If rebarreling a gun would you use the FCA2 form?

alanmc

BryanL wrote: »

If rebarreling a gun would you use the FCA2 form?

To the same caliber with a different serial number, then yes. Just to chnage the serial if indeed you are changing the serial.

If the old barrel is being destroyed and the new barrel is having the same serial, then there should be no need to do anything.

garv123

alanmc wrote: »

To the same caliber with a different serial number, then yes. Just to chnage the serial if indeed you are changing the serial.

If the old barrel is being destroyed and the new barrel is having the same serial, then there should be no need to do anything.

Most barrels dont have a serial number. The action does, nothing stopping someone owning multiple barrels of the same calibre.

BryanL

garv123 wrote: »

Most barrels dont have a serial number. The action does, nothing stopping someone owning multiple barrels of the same calibre.

This is for an airgun, usually the number is on the barrel rather than the other way around. B

alanmc

garv123 wrote: »

Most barrels dont have a serial number. The action does, nothing stopping someone owning multiple barrels of the same calibre.

All of my rifles have the serial number on the barrel. I had to submit a FCA2 when changing barrel on my 308 just to change the serial number. Was done in no time at all though.

Grizzly 45

alanmc wrote: »

Still no word on my application. I'm past the 3 months now. At the risk of pissing them off, I'm going to give the Supers office a call again tomorrow. It's getting a little annoying now.

Errrrr....NO! YOU should be the one pissed off!! Remember, they are there for us, not vice versa. Going by their publicity blurb. You have done your bit to acquire your license.THEY are the ones at fault, as the ball is firmly in their court.
So don't be afraid of stating your case or being somewhat annoyed at their failures.

tac foley

alanmc wrote: »

All of my rifles have the serial number on the barrel. I had to submit a FCA2 when changing barrel on my 308 just to change the serial number. Was done in no time at all though.

So basically, your rifle has one serial number on the receiver and an entirely different one on the barrel. How does that work out?

alanmc

tac foley wrote: »

So basically, your rifle has one serial number on the receiver and an entirely different one on the barrel. How does that work out?

Who said there was a serial number on the receiver?

Chiorino

I'm waiting on my licence renewal having left all docs into the station in October. I've called back 4 times since December (licence expired then) and no one seems to know where it is or what's going on.

alanmc

tac foley wrote: »

So basically, your rifle has one serial number on the receiver and an entirely different one on the barrel. How does that work out?

Actually, Ive just had a look and there is a serial on the receiver. It's on the underside though, so to view it you need to separate action from stock.

The bolt and barrel also have serial numbers, none of which match.

Hmmmmmm.

garv123

Handed in my application Friday 22 Feb, applied for a substitution and got a letter today looking for a other 80quid. Guess I'm better off paying it for a new licence, might be more hassle ringing about it.

Emmersonn

I handed in an application for a substitution on 15th Jan. Our station is one of those that is randomly open. I was lucky that I met the FO that day and have been unable to make contact since . Still waiting.

Grizzly 45

Find your divisional HQ for your area,and talk to the designated firearms officer there.Tell them you have been trying to get in touch with the local FO,as this is now running overdue and you would like an answer on whats going on?Please&Thanks.

alanmc

Finally got a call from the Supers office today telling me my grant letter was on its way.

freddieot

Congrats !

Chiorino

And finally got my grant letter last Friday.

Cass

Over 6 months. You're more patient than i am. Congrats on getting it all the same.

Chiorino

Cass wrote: »

Over 6 months. You're more patient than i am. Congrats on getting it all the same.

What's the alternative apart from going up to the station every couple of weeks?? Getting thick with a guard at the counter won't help and there's no higher power to appeal to, is there?

Cass

Chiorino wrote: »

What's the alternative apart from going up to the station every couple of weeks??

Going to the station daily, every couple of days. Not weeks.

Also its a renewal so it's an FCR. I'd be making an appointment with the Super. Ringing his/her office and making an appointment.

AS a renewal you would have received it 3 months prior to the expiry of the current license. So if it's going on 6 months your old license would have expired before you got the new one. What happens with your firearms ? Legally you are no longer licensed so not allowed to be in possession of them.

These are issues i'd be raising when making the appointment. IOW AGS and the Super are causing you to be in breach of the law by their inaction.

Chiorino wrote: »

I'm waiting on my licence renewal having left all docs into the station in October. I've called back 4 times since December (licence expired then) and no one seems to know where it is or what's going on.

If they've lost it or think they have or YOU think they have tell them that is a GDPR and Data protection violation. €250,000 fine and jail time. That'll light a fire under their ar*e.

Getting thick with a guard at the counter won't help and there's no higher power to appeal to, is there?

You're right, it won't, and i'm not advocating for that.

However the flat foot at the window is a nobody, and even the Sergeant or whomever deals with the applications are unimportant as it's the Super that signs off on them. So anyone under the rank of Super if inconsequential.

You can, as said above, contact the Super directly. They are not a God and cannot refuse to take a meeting, however long it takes to arrange one. The FPU (Firearms Policy Unit) are becoming less and less helpful to the point they are confrontational when rang, but are still an option.

Failing all the above make an appointment with the Chief Super. S/he'll probably try to pass it off as the Super's issue but you explain your situation and the GDPR violation and it'll get results.

Also make sure you have detailed notes of all the information from when you dropped off the renewal/application, times you rang, times you dropped into the station, who you spoke to, etc, etc.

I've been through this myself, only once thankfully. After 2 months i had heard nothing back from my local station (i normally used the district, but was told i had to start using the local one). I tried ringing, calling in, etc. to no avail.

A day after the 3 month time frame elapsed i essentially lived in the town until i got someone in the station. Long story short they were ignorant, rude and the paperwork was sitting on the top of a filing cabinet, unopened. I took it from them, went home, checked all the paperwork, made an appointment to the see the Super (which took ten days) went in with my application and times/dates of all action till that point, including the way i was spoken to and treated.

I left the meeting with the Super and two days later i got my receipt letter, the next day the grant. The day after these i got an apology letter signed by the Super for the way i was treated, spoken to and an assurance it would not happen again plus instruction to continue to send all renewals and application to the district station bypassing the local one.

Chiorino

Thanks for the advice Cass. I'll bear it in mind next time renewal rolls around.

Cass

Please bear in mind i'm not chastising you or saying what you did was wrong. We all know the struggle of trying to work with certain members that are indifferent or confrontational.

It's just advice, and even after doing your best, and everything you can, you may still find yourself waiting well past the legal allowed time frame.

Grizzly 45

Also there is the "ultima ratio",if you are getting nowhere of calling the Garda Ombudsman,and making a complaint.Be aware that I have never heard of them upholding a complaint RE firearms matters in Ireland,and I have a list of nigh on 30 cases tht they found no cause for action...But another 1or 20 to the list will be a great help one day...

However,it isnt pleasent for a Super to arrive into the office one morning to find someone of equal or superior rank sitting behind his desk having a look at a file that he has ben been abit tardy in dealing with,or being down right obstreperious with the complainent. It does tend to focus their minds rather sharpish.:rolleyes:

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

If they've lost it or think they have or YOU think they have tell them that is a GDPR and Data protection violation. €250,000 fine and jail time. That'll light a fire under their ar*e.

It would be hard to prove you dropped in the application seeing as they don't give out receipts.

Cass

Yup, hence my point on being impartial or confrontational.

It's also why i go in with my own and get whomever is on the desk to sign it.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

It would be hard to prove you dropped in the application seeing as they don't give out receipts.

Not really...If you are dropping it in person to the station office,ask for the duty Gardas name and ID number who took the letter.By rights it should also be enterd in the station duty log as well.Thats what it's there for after all.:)

dc99

Even without the receipt, usually the date you sign and date the application is the day of or the day before you drop it in to AGS.
Any reasonable person would accept hat that date is proof enough of the date of application. You would never post date an application would you?

Cass

The problem is no one bar the applicant and the Garda processing the application see that date and so when the Gardaí enter the date they start to process the application it's THAT date that is used for their stats and not the one on the FCA1.

As said in either this thread or another recently, it's why they can claim over 90%+ of applications are done on time or more accurately within the time frame.

dc99

Absolutely accept that Cass, I was just saying that if there was a dispute on when the application was handed in - you can state that the date on the paper reflects when it was dropped in roughly.
I had a similar issue - dropped it in end last year, start date was being quoted back as this year. But I stuck to my guns (lol couldn’t help myself ) and just repeated the correct drop in date. (I also kept a note of each interaction or failed interaction in my desk diary...)