How can someone in their 30s afford a house - PLEASE READ MOD WARNING IN OP

martingriff

Eric Cartman wrote: »

This entire thread : it would be nice if they built more houses to ease demand , it would be nice if there was affordable developments for working people near dublin ,

Somehow some posters have mis interpreted that as people looking for discounts in houses or telling people to move down the country or any other manor of unviable options.

GreenBo , do you accept that dublin prices are irrationally high because of constrained supply and that building more houses would lower these prices and make dublin more accessible to the people who need (yes some people need to be) there

Question Where would these house be built how big are these houses how much land is needed and where would you get it.

klaaaz

GreeBo wrote: »

Where do you think these "more houses" can be built in Dublin exactly? We already have huge estates of houses and apartments halfway up the Dublin mountains on commutes that take longer than travelling from Drogheda.

Until demand drops, i.e. everyone accepts they cant all live in Dublin then the prices are what people are willing to pay.

That's misleading, its well known that land is scarce in South Dublin and has been for maybe 30 years. Land is not scarce in West and North Dublin, it's who is holding onto the land that is the problem. A few thousand more apartments could easily be built if the will was there to tackle the land hoarders.

Idbatterim

What decisions of the government are impacting supply and demand of houses?

Unless you are specifically talking about social housing, which is NOT what is under discussion here.
And even then, social housing is not going to magically popup in some greenfield site that we all forgot about in the city centre.

I am talking about the total disregard for proper planning. Farcical investments in transport systems that could house hundreds of thousands near by, who could walk to them. The kind of bat **** crazy off the wall ****, that they tend to do on the continent, totally mental stuff, like proper planning, sustainable development etc... Really quite fascinating stuff!

Office space for tends of thousands in the docklands completed and or under construction? You know how many apartments are being developed? a drop in the ocean! You think it might have been reasonable to zone more residential? To have a worker coming down a twenty floor block and a two minute stroll to work, than coming from 30km outside dublin?

Simple questions, but no doubt youll have an issue with the "logic"

Brussels Sprout

I've read through a lot of the posts in this thread in the past few days. I think the premise of the OP was an interesting question with, perhaps a depressingly simple answer ("for the most part, No").
Rather than a discussion about why this might be and what should change in the future, we instead have a lot of toxic posting. In particular there appear to be a number of prolific posters who believe that just because they suffered, everyone should as well.
When corporal punishment was banned in schools a lot of adults at the time, opposed this ban for this very reason. Rather than look at the bigger picture there’s this kind of Victorian vindictiveness that blinds people to the larger issue.

I’m not advocating for people being handed houses who have wasted their money. I do however think that for people to disregard the fact that the housing market is currently entirely dysfunctional is disingenuous and often masks a desire to simply preach to others. Comments like “life isn’t fair” and “suck it up” aren’t helpful to anyone.

We have an ever increasing number of single people in society and a property/rental market that is not geared in any way toward them. For many people their only recourse is to either live with their parents or house share well into their 30’s. Hopefully in the coming years and decades we can see more suitable accommodation being built that would be geared toward this section of society but I won’t hold my breath since developers and builders seem to hate building apartments.

Claw Hammer

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

IHopefully in the coming years and decades we can see more suitable accommodation being built that would be geared toward this section of society but I won’t hold my breath since developers and builders seem to hate building apartments.

Developers and builders build what is economic to build. It is not economic to speculatively build apartments at the moment so they're not been built. There are build to rent apartments being constructed because it is economic to build them. It is economic to build hotels, offices and student blocks and so they are being built. Single people buying property for themselves to live in was not common until very recent times. The 1901 and the 1911 census returns are online and there are relatively few single person households and many of those may have been rented rather than owned outright.

pwurple

I'm not sure why it's even something to be encouraged generally... living alone. We are social creatures. We look after eachother. We live in communities. This push to single living isn't the right thing to do IMHO. It's not good for mental health or physical health, isolation is miserable. Rubbing the corners off eachother makes us all better.

Japan has a whole generation which shot into single individualistic living, and it's depressing reading.

GreeBo

klaaaz wrote: »

That's misleading, its well known that land is scarce in South Dublin and has been for maybe 30 years. Land is not scarce in West and North Dublin, it's who is holding onto the land that is the problem. A few thousand more apartments could easily be built if the will was there to tackle the land hoarders.

You mean like in Clonsilla, Clondalkin and Balbriggan where there are houses for sale TODAY for under 200K but the posters on this thread are too special to live in such war zones?

Idbatterim

I’m not advocating for people being handed houses who have wasted their money. I do however think that for people to disregard the fact that the housing market is currently entirely dysfunctional is disingenuous and often masks a desire to simply preach to others. Comments like “life isn’t fair” and “suck it up” aren’t helpful to anyone.

hang on now, some are handed housing for free and their dual income neighbours breaking their balls for a thirty five year mortgage, you agree with that?

You have some group, the group you mention below particularly, who are totally f**cked because of the situation, you think thats morally right or acceptable? I have read many articles in the irish media about how the young will eventually stand up for themselves, Ill believe it when I see it, I hope so!

My dad is German, see I think the only perspective people have here, is the irish one, if you think for one minute, that any of this **** would fly in germany, you are very much mistaken, the off the wall welfare state, the home handouts for nothing, while others "exist" in massive debt and **** commute...

We have an ever increasing number of single people in society and a property/rental market that is not geared in any way toward them. For many people their only recourse is to either live with their parents or house share well into their 30’s. Hopefully in the coming years and decades we can see more suitable accommodation being built that would be geared toward this section of society but I won’t hold my breath since developers and builders seem to hate building apartments.

this is a planning issue, you tell me why that wasnt fixed years ago or isnt now, the councils simply mandate a sizeable chunk of relatively "affordable" apartments / studios in a given development...

mariaalice

What about shared ownership scheme for those buying on their own and over 40 with very tight controls on it.

Idbatterim

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Developers and builders build what is economic to build. It is not economic to speculatively build apartments at the moment so they're not been built. There are build to rent apartments being constructed because it is economic to build them. It is economic to build hotels, offices and student blocks and so they are being built. Single people buying property for themselves to live in was not common until very recent times. The 1901 and the 1911 census returns are online and there are relatively few single person households and many of those may have been rented rather than owned outright.

This absolutely hits the nail on the head and is so obvious! They build what makes sense for them to build! The fact that they arent building more housing is entirely down to government decisions, if they government here arent making the decisions (local or national government) could someone please point out to me, who is?

It is a business decisions for developers , influenced by the morons the decision makers we have at every level here. Morons or vested interests (take your pick)... You can safely assume that pretty much all decision makers here are home owners, now you could be a real think foil hatter and think "heck you dont even have to be a landlord to want rising prices, being a mere "homeowner" is enough... total off the wall conspiracy theories I know...

GreeBo

Yurt! wrote: »

Except in all the countries that it does work in. Throw a dart at a map in Northern Europe and there are successful schemes of varying types.

It would be easier for all in the thread if you admitted that you don't care about the problem of unaffordability, rather than doing a poor job trying to explain away that the problem doesn't exist.

It would be equally easier for all if you just flat out admitted that you think you are entitled to live wherever you want, irrespective of what you can actually afford, rather than trying to make it everyone elses problem to solve.

Yurt2

martingriff wrote: »

Question Where would these house be built how big are these houses how much land is needed and where would you get it.

A land value tax is the most important step(among many) the government can take. It incentivises productive land use, and disincentivises land hoarding and speculation. This has worked from everywhere from Austria to Taiwan. The government were mulling it a few years ago but got spooked when interest groups convinced them it would be a vote loser.

GreeBo

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is a planning issue, you tell me why that wasnt fixed years ago or isnt now, the councils simply mandate a sizeable chunk of relatively "affordable" apartments / studios in a given development...

More affordable council housing will just push up the demand for those houses, its not going to suddenly mean everyone gets a house.

Why would I pay 500K for a house if there is a council house next door for 200K?

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

I'm not sure why it's even something to be encouraged generally... living alone. ............

If you're not coupled up it's preferable to live alone than share IMO.

GreeBo

klaaaz wrote: »

That happened in the last bubble too, it can often end in distress and family/friends breakup.
One thing is that REIT's have bought up maybe thousands of apartments(another name for flats) shutting out those single buyers who just want a small flat. The REIT's are landlords too.

Is this a bubble?
What is going to make it burst?

Property prices crashed because access to cheap money was removed. It was cheap money that meant demand rose and hence pushed prices up.

There is no access to cheap money now, so I dont see what is going to suddenly change to reduce demand?

Yurt2

GreeBo wrote: »

It would be equally easier for all if you just flat out admitted that you think you are entitled to live wherever you want, irrespective of what you can actually afford, rather than trying to make it everyone elses problem to solve.

I own a house, thankyouverymuch, and I'm grateful for it. Unlike you I'm not running around on some clueless anti communist crusade, telling less fortunate people to pull up their bootstraps because you ate pot noodles in a box room for a few years.

The reason you're getting so much blowback is because you're obnoxious about your circumstances, and obnoxious about others.

Ush1

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was out near citywest the other day, beside one of the luas stops, what is going up ? low density houses, out on the n11 at foxrock, a site backing onto it and its "high quality qbc" what is going up? low density houses! But yeah, its all ah so complex to fix!

That might be easiest for the developer to get finance for, it might be the most lucrative! I dont care, this is an issue with the planning authorities and not putting down forced minimum densities, as ronan lyons keeps pointing out, its a massive apartment shortage that we have, not a house shortage!!!

There is more to the lack of highrise than government policies, NIMBYism is rife. Any time high rise or even medium rise proposals are put forward, huge numbers of complaints, protests etc... from locals.

The other side of it is which people are often slow to admit is that Irish people for the most part don't want an apartment, they want a 3 bed semi. If it was economically viable builders would build what would make the most profit.

Another element is Irelands history of high rise with regards to towers like Ballymun.

Also, just because there build some high rise won't straight away make them affordable, didn't Google basically buy all of the Bolands Mills site apartments off plans?

klaaaz

GreeBo wrote: »

You mean like in Clonsilla, Clondalkin and Balbriggan where there are houses for sale TODAY for under 200K but the posters on this thread are too special to live in such war zones?

That's a tad unfair, Balbriggan is getting a bad reputation with massive anti-social behaviour with marches by residents about it. Parts of Clondalkin have a long bad rep as well as a good rep, depends which street or estate that house under 200k is?

As for Clonsilla, whereabouts is this magical sub-200k house?

martingriff

Idbatterim wrote: »

This absolutely hits the nail on the head and is so obvious! They build what makes sense for them to build! The fact that they arent building more housing is entirely down to government decisions, if they government here arent making the decisions (local or national government) could someone please point out to me, who is?

It is a business decisions for developers , influenced by the morons the decision makers we have at every level here. Morons or vested interests (take your pick)... You can safely assume that pretty much all decision makers here are home owners, now you could be a real think foil hatter and think "heck you dont even have to be a landlord to want rising prices, being a mere "homeowner" is enough... total off the wall conspiracy theories I know...

There is another reason why they are not building it is down to price and unless you say government should fix prices. Of course planning and red tape have to be amended but you need to be careful with how you do this or you end up with gost estates where people do not want to go.

Idbatterim

Yurt! wrote: »

A land value tax is the most important step(among many) the government can take. It incentivises productive land use, and disincentivises land hoarding and speculation. This has worked from everywhere from Austria to Taiwan. The government were mulling it a few years ago but got spooked when interest groups convinced them it would be a vote loser.

what a total and utter surprise! As usual the peasants lose out... I also think many people think "well I broke my balls to get a home, so should John and Jane Doe"

they dont question the sanity of the entire system and the off the wall banana repubic we live in!

I suggest coming away from boards and the joke known as the Irish "media" for a while, you want to educate yourself on why we have the system that we do, take a look the below australian documentary, carefully engineed exactly the same as here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3n59wC8kk&t=49s

klaaaz

GreeBo wrote: »

Is this a bubble?
What is going to make it burst?

Property prices crashed because access to cheap money was removed. It was cheap money that meant demand rose and hence pushed prices up.

There is no access to cheap money now, so I dont see what is going to suddenly change to reduce demand?

Interest rates are super low and have been for most years since the crash, the access to cheap credit has not been removed. It has only got slightly restrictive due to our own Central Bank rules.

Ush1

Yurt! wrote: »

As it happens the Swiss elected to limit second home ownership to curb speculation and rapidly increasing property prices. The sky hasn't fallen down.

I'm not necessarily advocating that for Ireland, but they were brave enough to tackle the problem. If one were to propose that here, how long before the C (communism) word would be invoked?

Yes and I believe in France you have to justify the reason for a second home. Property taxes we have were designed with that in mind. Maybe having a higher rate of tax from multiple residences could help? Be interesting to quantify how much of an issue that is.

martingriff

Yurt! wrote: »

A land value tax is the most important step(among many) the government can take. It incentivises productive land use, and disincentivises land hoarding and speculation. This has worked from everywhere from Austria to Taiwan. The government were mulling it a few years ago but got spooked when interest groups convinced them it would be a vote loser.

I agree in relation to land taxes actually for development left idle. Put again where how many can be built is a finite resource and how would you keep prices down

Ush1

Yurt! wrote: »

Except in all the countries that it does work in. Throw a dart at a map in Northern Europe and there are successful schemes of varying types.

It would be easier for all in the thread if you admitted that you don't care about the problem of unaffordability, rather than doing a poor job trying to explain away that the problem doesn't exist.

Nobody said it doesn't exist, but the problem is worldwide and solutions are far from simple if indeed possible at all.

GreeBo

Yurt! wrote: »

I own a house, thankyouverymuch, and I'm grateful for it. Unlike you I'm not running around on some clueless anti communist crusade, telling less fortunate people to pull up their bootstraps because you ate pot noodles in a box room for a few years.

The reason you're getting so much blowback is because you're obnoxious about your circumstances, and obnoxious about others.

So you are pro-communist then?

That does explain why you think you are entitled to something for nothing.

I'm not telling anyone to pull up the bootstraps (or socks), I'm telling people that their expectations have to match reality and if they dont, thats not everyone elses problem to solve.

Idbatterim

martingriff wrote: »

There is another reason why they are not building it is down to price and unless you say government should fix prices. Of course planning and red tape have to be amended but you need to be careful with how you do this or you end up with gost estates where people do not want to go.

we are saying housing is unaffordable to hundreds of thousands in Dublin, yeah it is. So you design something that is affordable to those masses. This is going to be apartments that are single aspect. No ridiculous hugely expensive underground car parking, no ridiculous lift core ratio. Properly sound insulated. So they can have their own contemporary, well insulated , own personal space OR , OR they can continue in many cases, to live in s**t holes!

Typical irish, never any middleground...

Eric Cartman

martingriff wrote: »

Question Where would these house be built how big are these houses how much land is needed and where would you get it.

3 bed semis and where there are good transport links 2 bed apartments.

Yurt2

Idbatterim wrote: »

what a total and utter surprise! As usual the peasants lose out... I also think many people think "well I broke my balls to get a home, so should John and Jane Doe"

they dont question the sanity of the entire system and the off the wall banana repubic we live in!

I suggest coming away from boards and the joke known as the Irish "media" for a while, you want to educate yourself on why we have the system that we do, take a look the below australian documentary, carefully engineed exactly the same as here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3n59wC8kk&t=49s

Australia's real estate market is going to hit the wall in a big way this year. Same circumstances as Ireland in the boom - except financed by a now slowing commodities boom and Chinese investors flinging around money like confetti.

They have a similar Anglo attitude to property as Ireland, so they'll be a while picking up the pieces (as we have).

GreeBo

klaaaz wrote: »

Interest rates are super low and have been for most years since the crash, the access to cheap credit has not been removed. It has only got slightly restrictive due to our own Central Bank rules.

Yes, but that was the point of those Central Bank rules...?
I'm not sure what point you are making now.

Access to cheap credit has most certainly been removed, just ask any of the people who can't get a mortgage that they would have easily gotten 10 years ago.


/edit

I'm not saying credit isnt cheap at the moment, but thats only pertinent if you can access it, which is much harder now.

Idbatterim

Augeo wrote: »

If you're not coupled up it's preferable to live alone than share IMO.

Oh yeah! a few of my friends are at home , in their thirties, they will stay there before sharing with randomers, its one thing in your twenties or maybe early thirties at a push, but after that :rolleyes: