Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Dyr

VinLieger wrote: »

More noises around a hard border not being good for future trade deals coming from the US congress on both sides of the aisle


https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/hard-border-in-ireland-could-threaten-postbrexit-usuk-trade-deal-congress-warns-37791274.html


Again how stupid were they to think this was all happening in a vacuum.


They constantly seemed to forget that the rest of the world likes us.....

The US is not going to let a border in Ireland put it off securing a trade deal with the UK but it gives them even more leverage against the Brits

VinLieger

breatheme wrote: »

And then TM made him Brexit secretary.

Those tweets will never get old.

How has he NEVER been challenged on that, publicly, by the British media?

Especially considering its exactly the same misconceptions trump had about the EU that Merkel had to correct i think 11 times before he gave up.

breatheme

VinLieger wrote: »

Especially considering its exactly the same misconceptions trump had about the EU that Merkel had to correct i think 11 times before he gave up.

Oh yeah, when he kept asking for a trade deal with Germany. I had forgotten about that. It's been so long and so much has happened.

Is anyone else having trouble coming to terms that soon it'll be 3 years since the referendum?

Hurrache

breatheme wrote: »

How has he NEVER been challenged on that, publicly, by the British media?

I've never seen or heard it on the TV or radio (apart from James O'Brien), but he is openly derided in some print and media.

Dyr

breatheme wrote: »

Oh yeah, when he kept asking for a trade deal with Germany. I had forgotten about that. It's been so long and so much has happened.

Is anyone else having trouble coming to terms that soon it'll be 3 years since the referendum?

Here's a hilarious summation of the adventures of Davis and Raab


https://www.captiongenerator.com/1272822/Brexit-preparation

It's just goes to show why Tusk has told them to wise up, they're arguing against their own deal.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

Is the objective of the EU to steer the UK in the direction of realising the error of it's ways or to crush and belittle it?
The brexiteers are seizing on the footage of Tusk and Varadkar sniggering about the "hell"comments-as a remainer I don't think it's helpful giving them anything to latch on to.

Remain is dead, the EU has accepted that, it's time the UK does too. The EU is neither trying to steer the UK into realising the error of their ways and remain, or trying to "crush and belittle" the UK. It is giving the UK a timely reminder that the policy the UK is now committed to is driven by people who have no clue how to deliver it. It is a wake up call to the people who could deliver a limited Brexit and thereby avoid much of the potential damage.

Remainers in the UK are at least partially culpable for where the UK is right now, they have aided and abetted the extreme Brexiteers to make the cliff their country faces all the higher in the hopes that Brexit will be so bad that they can force the UK to remain. No one is actually working to minimise the impact of Brexit. The brexiteers want a hard crash because that is the truest Brexit and for many of them, the chaos that ensues is the whole point. The remainers are not working to make Brexit bearable because they hope an unbearable Brexit will cause the UK to back out at the last minute or force them to rejoin the EU down the line.

It was natural to assume that the remainers, being the seemingly rational people in the room, would work to secure a managable compromise, but it turns out that the last thing they want is a managable sustainable Brexit and they can't allow themselves to support one.

The hardliners on both sides are creating a disaster for the UK. The Brexiteers are obviously far worse, but they are helped by the remainers whos determination not to facilitate Brexit means they would sooner have a crash by opposing a deal than vote for a deal.

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

The US is not going to let a border in Ireland put it off securing a trade deal with the UK but it gives them even more leverage against the Brits

The US is a devided country. If Trump wants a trade deal with the UK the Democrats can block him and use the border issue for moral high ground and the same applies in reverse.

VinLieger

Bambi wrote: »

The US is not going to let a border in Ireland put it off securing a trade deal with the UK but it gives them even more leverage against the Brits

Ohh i agree, there will be a deal but its not going to be anywhere as easy or about the "special relationship" as brexiteers make it out to be.


Much like any deal with India, China, Australia etc, they have all seen how they have behaved in negotiations with the EU so will treat them very carefully. Couple that with the obvious desperation they will be under to get new deals and they will be torn apart.

MBSnr

This will cause some pain in the border areas in the event of a no deal brexit. UK Gov reveals mobile roaming charges to reappear.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brits-eu-mobile-phone-roaming-no-deal-brexit-government_uk_5c5b185be4b09293b20ab335?guccounter=1

lawred2

MBSnr wrote: »

This will cause some pain in the border areas in the event of a no deal brexit. UK Gov reveals mobile roaming charges to reappear.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brits-eu-mobile-phone-roaming-no-deal-brexit-government_uk_5c5b185be4b09293b20ab335?guccounter=1

well this was inevitable really

I wonder when the mobile companies here will announce their post brexit plans? Afair, 3 didn't have any extra roaming charges between ire and uk before the EU law came into place.

Professor Moriarty

MBSnr wrote: »

This will cause some pain in the border areas in the event of a no deal brexit. UK Gov reveals mobile roaming charges to reappear.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brits-eu-mobile-phone-roaming-no-deal-brexit-government_uk_5c5b185be4b09293b20ab335?guccounter=1

It won't be as bad as it seems. If Mogg, Raab, Bojo et al get their way, a lot of people in NI won't be able to afford mobile phones anyway so these charges won't apply to them.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wonder when the mobile companies here will announce their post brexit plans? Afair, 3 didn't have any extra roaming charges between ire and uk before the EU law came into place.

That was in a single common market . How will they fare with tariffs in place.

Hammer Archer

MBSnr wrote: »

This will cause some pain in the border areas in the event of a no deal brexit. UK Gov reveals mobile roaming charges to reappear.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brits-eu-mobile-phone-roaming-no-deal-brexit-government_uk_5c5b185be4b09293b20ab335?guccounter=1

Ironically when the abolition of roaming charges was brought in, the Tories acted as if they were the ones to bring it in and were patting themselves on the back.

As for the pearl clutching after the "special place in hell" comments, it's a bit rich when the current foreign secretary publicly compared the EU to a Soviet prison not 6 months ago to much cheering and hollering.

VinLieger

listermint wrote: »

That was in a single common market . How will they fare with tariffs in place.

Jesus yeah what will the charges be like then?

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

Request for Brexit forum so we can discuss multiple aspects at the same time: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057953333

Mod note:

Just FYI, other discrete threads can be started in the Politics forum e.g. the current Ireland and the EU Post Brexit thread and current Backstop Thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057946041

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109250782

There are various other ones such as the unexpected consequences of Brexit (e.g. Ireland being the only English speaking country in Europe):

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=108641198

Irish citizens rights in the UK post Brexit:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102095352

Potential United Ireland or Independent Northern Ireland post Brexit:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105491044
(there have been several of these)

Irexit:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102681199

It's more art than science, but it has always been the rule that a discrete aspect of Brexit can have its own thread, provided that there is sufficient substance to it. Right now, for instance, I think that a thread discussing the very practical and technical aspects of a hard border could be an interesting topic. A separate thread would mean that it would avoid discussion of whether a hard border will happen, the negotiations etc and would focus on the practical political aspects of it e.g. road closures, risk of attacks to border posts, how goods are checked, smuggling avoided etc.

El Weirdo

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder when the mobile companies here will announce their post brexit plans? Afair, 3 didn't have any extra roaming charges between ire and uk before the EU law came into place.

Pretty sure Vodafone didn't either.

briany

As far as people day-tripping it to the north after the event of no-deal, I would say the best thing to do would be to buy a UK 3 sim (even better if one has a dual-sim phone) and put a bit of credit onto it. I'm going to go ahead and assume that the 500 MB add-on would still be a thing, so you could use that for a fiver a go.

And, hey, if the Pound tanks then it mightn't even be more expensive.

CelticRambler

listermint wrote: »

That was in a single common market . How will they fare with tariffs in place.

This is a genuine example of "Project Fear." Just because Westminster is tidying up the wording of legal texts doesn't mean that the businesses concerned will immediately revert to "the way things were." My mobile provider (in France) has just sent me a message telling me that my (0€/month :P) deal now includes calls and data in Argentina on the same terms as in France, added to similar T&Cs for my usage in the US, Australia and Indonesia. None of those places are in the single market.

VinLieger

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is a genuine example of "Project Fear." Just because Westminster is tidying up the wording of legal texts doesn't mean that the businesses concerned will immediately revert to "the way things were." My mobile provider (in France) has just sent me a message telling me that my (0€/month :P) deal now includes calls and data in Argentina on the same terms as in France, added to similar T&Cs for my usage in the US, Australia and Indonesia. None of those places are in the single market.

Yes but theres trade deals between the EU and Argentina to explain this. When the UK leaves with no deal they wont have trade deals with argentina anymore, at least in the short term so the question of how will they fare when tariffs are in place due to having no trade deal is not project fear at all.

Enzokk

Here is an interesting clip of Sayeeda Warsi confirming why David Cameron will always be the worst PM in living history, even if May is trying to beat him to that title.

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1093478425715716101

She basically confirms what we all knew, they only inserted that they would hold a EU membership referendum in their manifesto because they didn't think they would win a majority. They then had to follow through on their manifesto pledge and here we are.

listermint

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is a genuine example of "Project Fear." Just because Westminster is tidying up the wording of legal texts doesn't mean that the businesses concerned will immediately revert to "the way things were." My mobile provider (in France) has just sent me a message telling me that my (0€/month :P) deal now includes calls and data in Argentina on the same terms as in France, added to similar T&Cs for my usage in the US, Australia and Indonesia. None of those places are in the single market.

You clearly and evidently dont understand how Trade Deals work, As in. AT ALL. The point you just made actually assisted what i wrote.

Cheers though

listermint

And this is the type of stuff a Closed Stormont and Brexit bite back on Ireland can expect.

if the DUP had their way power would revert back to London

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/british-nuclear-waste-facility-could-be-located-near-newry-1.3784563

Newry is being considered as a possible location to store the UK’s nuclear refuse

prawnsambo

Enzokk wrote: »

Here is an interesting clip of Sayeeda Warsi confirming why David Cameron will always be the worst PM in living history, even if May is trying to beat him to that title.

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1093478425715716101

She basically confirms what we all knew, they only inserted that they would hold a EU membership referendum in their manifesto because they didn't think they would win a majority. They then had to follow through on their manifesto pledge and here we are.

And then confirms; again as we all know, that now that the good ship Tory has struck the iceberg, it's still party before country.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/ellenjoelle/status/1093335514105688064


More of yesterday's PR offensive . A strong symbol of support

CelticRambler

Folkstonian wrote: »

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/tusk-selmayr-and-the-eus-twitter-diplomacy/

An interesting article from Fraser Nelson of the Spectator today in light of the twitter (un)diplomacy we are witnessing more and more from Trump and the EU.

I hope people read it even if they have a distrust for the Spectator as a publication as it definitely makes some compelling points about the use of twitter not just to spread key messages, but also to engage in ‘trolling’

I think it’s unwise and unhelpful. The ‘one-upmanship’ strategy of the EU on social media leaves a bitter taste in the mouth for me with stunts like the sneaky ‘no cherry picking’ Snapchat ambush on Theresa May.

But that’s just a personal opinion obviously, it just seems unnecessarily sneaky

Do people mind that the likes of Selmayr and Sabine Weyand, as unelected civil servants, are manoeuvring themselves into being social media champions of the European Union almost, or is it simply the new normal for international diplomacy?

I read that article and was about to do you the courtesy of a reply, before all hell broke loose on this thread yesterday evening. But I went dancing instead.

First reaction: anyone who starts a paragraph with "But in the EU, no one is elected" is an ignorant fool and nothing else they write can be taken seriously. How does Mr. Nelson explain Nigel Farage and Marine LePen having seats in the EU Parliament? How does Mr. Nelson explain Theresa May having a seat on the EU Council? Were they not elected?

Next, some nit-picking: "Set aside the leaking, which is now a trademark EU tactic ..." What? Leaking is a tactic that has been used by politicians around the world - including Westminster - and would definitely not meet the conditions for trademarking in the EU. :P

And on to the meat of the article: "There’s a kind of unspoken decorum: if you’re working for an elected principal, you stay quiet. Your boss does the talking.

It would be unthinkable that any civil servant on the Brexit negotiating team would give running commentaries about their thoughts via Twitter. They exist to serve the elected politicians, who do the talking. "
Yes, there is an understanding that negotiations are best conducted quietly, and when all is done, the elected official takes either the credit or the blame. But in these negotiations, Westminster has followed the "stay quiet" dogma to the level of absurdity, refusing to talk even to people on their own side.

This highlights the huge difference between the British adversarial style of politics and the European style of consensual governance, and this is probably why the Irish have been so much more successful in steering Brexit than Westminster. When you govern as part of a coalition, you have no choice but to show most of your cards as a way of building trust. The EU has been doing this for the last two and a half years, but the British have responded with stiff, tightly buttoned, upper lips.

Fraser Nelson refers to the tweets by various "unelected chiefs-of-staff" as trolling. Just like the reaction of that MP in the HoC yesterday - and a lot of what we see in the Trump administration - that's choosing to be offended because they live in a them-vs-us world. Tusk wasn't offended when Varadkar told him he'd be roasted in the British press; the Germans weren't offended last week when they got roasted for using the Ivory Coast flag in a tweet.

"Getting on with each other" has become such an alien concept to politics in the UK that now you have people like Nelson complaining that the process of government is made more transparent by the tweets of senior civil servants, and arguably more accountable to the public than the locked-room-in-Chequers favoured by the Tories.

lawred2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ellenjoelle/status/1093335514105688064


More of yesterday's PR offensive . A strong symbol of support

Going to crack any moment now

CelticRambler

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes but theres trade deals between the EU and Argentina to explain this. When the UK leaves with no deal they wont have trade deals with argentina anymore, at least in the short term so the question of how will they fare when tariffs are in place due to having no trade deal is not project fear at all.

When the same company is operating in two different territories, they can choose whether or not to apply roaming charges to their own customers. That's a commercial decision, and if (for example) Vodafone owns and operates the network, then they can set their rates in any way they want. If you're targetting globetrotting phone users, then being able to tell your customers they'll have calls and data on the same terms on the far side of the world gives you a big marketing advantage.

Leroy42

According to the Expres headline the EU have caved and agreed to re-open talks. https://www.express.co.uk/

And some journalists are saying that more talks are on the table suggesting that TM has won at least the right to talk about he WA and concessions.

Yet, when you actually look at the EU press statement http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-19-903_en.htm clearly states:

President Juncker underlined that the EU27 will not reopen the Withdrawal Agreement, which represents a carefully balanced compromise between the European Union and the UK, in which both sides have made significant concessions to arrive at a deal. President Juncker however expressed his openness to add wording to the Political Declaration agreed by the EU27 and the UK in order to be more ambitious in terms of content and speed when it comes to the future relationship between the European Union and the UK. President Juncker drew attention to the fact that any solution would have to be agreed by the European Parliament and the EU27.

Bold is mine.

So why is anybody saying it is anything other than the rewording of the PD that the EU have been talking about all along.

spacecoyote

So they have officially rejected Mays request for renegotiation:

https://www.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-demands-to-renegotiate-brexit-deal-rejected-by-eu-2019-2?r=US&IR=T

Knew it was coming anyway.

Apologies if this is a repost of info