What if a forced privatization happened

Flyingsnowball

I don’t think it ever happened in the civilized world ever but say a public sector department were pushing for more wages.

What would happen if the government had enough of it and threw their hat at it closed that department down.

Obviously these people would strike.

Say then a private company started up and started advertising for these jobs to be filled on less money.

Surely these starving strikers would eventually take the private jobs.

Would there be legal ramifications for the government?

Could they change the law to do away with these ramifications?

Will the first 3 posts be from people trying to get people to press the thanks button on their post?

beauf

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

Flyingsnowball

beauf wrote: »

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

Yeah agency staff always get paid more in every sector. They can be let go on a day to day basis though.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Yeah agency staff always get paid more in every sector. They can be let go on a day to day basis though.

Tough. It doesn't provide a less expensive service for the end user though. Plus, the transient nature of the workforce can lead to inefficiencies, inconsistences and a general lack of expertise in the function.

doolox

I was not too pushed about privatisation until the Tories tried to privatise prisons in the UK. They already have privatised remand prisoner transport and this caused many problems in the race for higher profits. There are just some things you cannot privatise.

I recall visiting my sister in West London back in the 90's and most of the bus services were privatised. The services to outlying towns was cut off at 5.30pm and very infrequent, reflecting a Tatcherite love affair with the private car.

Traffic was brutal as a result.

A similar chaos exists in modern British rail transport so that many people are looking to return to British Rail as a better alternative.

Flyingsnowball

Kameron Chilly Gunpoint wrote: »

Tough. It doesn't provide a less expensive service for the end user though. Plus, the transient nature of the workforce can lead to inefficiencies, inconsistences and a general lack of expertise in the function.

I would say different. People tend to be good at their job when they won’t get called back tomorrow if they arnt.

If the long term plan was to close a department, filling it with agency staff until you could dump the department may be quite profitable in the long term. A lot of the building trade has gone agency or self employed. You get paid more but only have work on the day there is work. You can’t be sick for a few years. There’s loads of reasons.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I would say different. People tend to be good at their job when they won’t get called back tomorrow if they arnt.

If the long term plan was to close a department, filling it with agency staff until you could dump the department may be quite profitable in the long term. A lot of the building trade has gone agency or self employed. You get paid more but only have work on the day there is work. You can’t be sick for a few years. There’s loads of reasons.

Goodnight.

That's laughable. Most government departments require staffing all day every day. They're not fitting a tap and waiting for the next job offer to come in.


The premise is ludicrous. I'll leave you to it.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I would say different. People tend to be good at their job when they won’t get called back tomorrow if they arnt.

How will an employer know that they won't get another bad one the next day?

Flyingsnowball

Jeez, it seems all public sector staff are all pulling in the same direction and working hard to be the best at their jobs.
Nobody goes sick a few months before maternity leave and a year after. Nobody just gets left at a desk all day because they like a drink. People get let go fairly regularly for under performance just the same as the private sector.

Anyway now that the few people who race to get on the front page with a smart answer have finished maybe somebody could have a good think about it and come up with something I havnt thought of.
A bit of civilized discussion.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How will an employer know that they won't get another bad one the next day?

Say I hire a crane driver and banksman from an agency. If they are useless I ring the agency and tell them to send me better staff or I will use a different agency.

Flyingsnowball

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Nobody goes sick a few months before maternity leave and a year after. Nobody just gets left at a desk all day because they like a drink. People get let go fairly regularly for under performance just the same as the private sector.

You've brought your prejudice to the forefront, thus a mature debate is beyond your capabilities.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Say I hire a crane driver and banksman from an agency. If they are useless I ring the agency and tell them to send me better staff or I will use a different agency.

Very poor performance from the private agency to send out useless workers.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Very poor performance from the private agency to send out useless workers.

Normally they don’t. That’s why it works great for the business owner. But not the slacker or even average worker. But as long as you stay young fit and fast at what you do you will get an extra few cent an hour.

I think it’s a step too far and the problem with capitalism but for department performance I can see the benefits. Can’t you?

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Normally they don’t. That’s why it works great for the business owner. But not the slacker or even average worker. But as long as you stay young fit and fast at what you do you will get an extra few cent an hour.

I think it’s a step too far and the problem with capitalism but for department performance I can see the benefits. Can’t you?

It would very much depend on the type of job. If a postman did not turn up for his delivery shift at 5 am, I don't think an agency could supply someone who could replace him. Do you?

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It would very much depend on the type of job. If a postman did not turn up for his delivery shift at 5 am, I don't think an agency could supply someone who could replace him. Do you?

For a little more than a postman’s wages?

Of course they would have a lad there at 5 am the next morning. My postman used to turn up whenever he wanted. He drank pints with whiskey chasers down the local everyday. 4 of them. Some weeks you got all your post on one day.

Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.

We still have to subsidize the postmens wages though with our taxes.

stimpson

Kameron Chilly Gunpoint wrote: »

Tough. It doesn't provide a less expensive service for the end user though. Plus, the transient nature of the workforce can lead to inefficiencies, inconsistences and a general lack of expertise in the function.

It give flexibility though. A friends husband worked as an IT contractor in a government dept. He changed toner in printers and nothing else. The reason being that the guy whose job it was to change typewriter ribbons had refused to do it and now comes in with the Indo and sits in the canteen all day. I believe Dublin Bus still have conductors on the books who do similar.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

For a little more than a postman’s wages?

Of course they would have a lad there at 5 am the next morning. My postman used to turn up whenever he wanted. He drank pints with whiskey chasers down the local everyday. 4 of them. Some weeks you got all your post on one day.

Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.

We still have to subsidize the postmens wages though with our taxes.

Ask one of the private operations to deliver two envelopes to Donegal and Wexford and offer them two Euros. I don't think they would do it.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Ask one of the private operations to deliver two envelopes to Donegal and Wexford and offer them two Euros. I don't think they would do it.

Maybe but parcel motel is there.
The thing is, you can’t live in rural backwaters and expect subsidized city service. If you want to live there you need to accept you may have to drive 5 k once a week to the nearest parcel motel.

beauf

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

...Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.....

They charge more and they cherry pick what they will do.

Look at the UK rising postal costs.

beauf

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Maybe but parcel motel is there.
The thing is, you can’t live in rural backwaters and expect subsidized city service. If you want to live there you need to accept you may have to drive 5 k once a week to the nearest parcel motel.

So you are agreeing privatization costs more.

To be profit making it has to raise costs, and cut losses.

Flyingsnowball

beauf wrote: »

So you are agreeing privatization costs more.

To be profit making it has to raise costs, and cut losses.

Of course it may cost more but taxes arnt spent subsidizing it. It runs efficiently not like a swinging trough.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Maybe but parcel motel is there.
The thing is, you can’t live in rural backwaters and expect subsidized city service. If you want to live there you need to accept you may have to drive 5 k once a week to the nearest parcel motel.

The envelopes were for the urban areas of Letterkenny and Enniscorthy.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The envelopes were for the urban areas of Letterkenny and Enniscorthy.

Were they that important that a man should be paid to drive there in a van, probably with another man who delivered the letter because the first man was hired as a driver and not a deliverer.

During so many public service emergencies.

On the same wage as a nurse.

But not important enough for you to pay a fiver.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Were they that important that a man should be paid to drive there in a van, probably with another man who delivered the letter because the first man was hired as a driver and not a deliverer.

During so many public service emergencies.

On the same wage as a nurse.

But not important enough for you to pay a fiver.

Better than the man (or woman) from the private courier company who threw a parcel over my garden wall. I found it a few days later. Bad enough, but it wasn't even for my house. Same house number, but wrong street.

Roger Hassenforder

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

maybe somebody could have a good think about it and come up with something I havnt thought of...

I've had a good think, and I reckon theres a lot you havent thought of.

Flyingsnowball

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I've had a good think, and I reckon theres a lot you havent thought of.

Like what?
Whatd happen?

noodler

beauf wrote: »

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

The numbers employed in the public sector are above pre crisis rates.

So not really largely done at all.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Better than the man (or woman) from the private courier company who threw a parcel over my garden wall. I found it a few days later. Bad enough, but it wasn't even for my house. Same house number, but wrong street.

Are you honestly saying an post never had a lost letter?

When I was a young lad the post box would get set on fire weekly and the postman would have his bike with all the letters in the front basket stolen every few months. Never mind heading two streets over to give somebody a letter that was in the pile for my street and the postman didn’t sort the letters because it’s not his job.

So when he got a letter for snowball street in the pile for snowball avenue, he just delivered it in the corresponding number.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Are you honestly saying an post never had a lost letter?

When I was a young lad the post box would get set on fire weekly and the postman would have his bike with all the letters in the front basket stolen every few months. Never mind heading two streets over to give somebody a letter that was in the pile for my street and the postman didn’t sort the letters because it’s not his job.

So when he got a letter for snowball street in the pile for snowball avenue, he just delivered it in the corresponding number.

There is a forum on Boards about private delivery companies. They are a disaster. This is one typical recent post.

4 packages came to my home over the past fortnight. Fastway is the courier company being used.

I suspect the driver has been here before and knows me as a Ms Wolle. All the packages are not for me or my family. It's for a different Wolle family who live down the road about a 10 minute walk away.

The first time it happened, the parcel was left at the front door. The next day when I got time, I walked down to the other Wolle house and left the package into them. When I came home there was another package delivered to my home and left at the front door for the other Wolle.

Same thing has happened yesterday and again today.

The driver isn't knocking at all. The driver just leaves them outside at our door.

I tried phoning fastway, to clear this up and get the driver to come back and collect the package and deliver it to the correct house. I got through to a machine that directed me to use their website and tracking if I am a customer. If I was a business owner or something to login to your account.

Once or twice would be ok, but this is number 4 now within such a short space.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is a forum on Boards about private delivery companies. They are a disaster. This is one typical recent post.

4 packages came to my home over the past fortnight. Fastway is the courier company being used.

I suspect the driver has been here before and knows me as a Ms Wolle. All the packages are not for me or my family. It's for a different Wolle family who live down the road about a 10 minute walk away.

The first time it happened, the parcel was left at the front door. The next day when I got time, I walked down to the other Wolle house and left the package into them. When I came home there was another package delivered to my home and left at the front door for the other Wolle.

Same thing has happened yesterday and again today.

The driver isn't knocking at all. The driver just leaves them outside at our door.

I tried phoning fastway, to clear this up and get the driver to come back and collect the package and deliver it to the correct house. I got through to a machine that directed me to use their website and tracking if I am a customer. If I was a business owner or something to login to your account.

Once or twice would be ok, but this is number 4 now within such a short space.

An post drop a letter in your door now saying we knocked and you didn’t answer please go to depot according to people here. It’s a new market for all these private companies. The good ones will prevail and the bad ones will lose jobs and contracts. That’s privatization for you. Survival of the fittest.

Are you saying an post would still have the market share it does after all these years if it was a private company and ran how it’s ran?

That drunken postman I was telling you about got his son a job when he was nearing retirement. Son was known locally for his laziness and slothenly nature but is still in the postal service. I’d imagine earning more than I’m earning now. Just for paying his union fees on time every week.

Roger Hassenforder

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Like what?
Whatd happen?

Pick a Dept.

Lets say Nurses, its topical, surely it was on your mind when you created the post.

Do you just clear out the nurses?
What about the administrative staff? Other staff like doctors and radiographers. Outsource the lab support (cervical cancer scandal anyone?). Where do you stop? Privatise the entire health service? How and how much will service users pay?

Theres dead weight in both public and private sector. BTW. im not entirely against privatization!

dxhound2005

There is no evidence that the bad couriers are being weeded out. This is the first post in a 65 page thread about one of them. It is from October 2013.

iparcel... the stupidest courier
I ordered some stuff from amazon Friday 2 weeks ago, they normally use an post which i have never had any issues with but for some reason they used "i-parcel" this time, this company is an absolute joke.

I have a mobile number included with my amazon delivery's that is always printed on the parcel, no phone calls from them. I went on there website... no number to contact only an american line that doesnt let you speak with someone directly except an answering machine.

I emailed them 2 days ago and still no reply. I looked up the tracking of the parcel and it said "delivery attempted " for friday last week. I didnt get any calls and there was someone at home all day last friday.

What the hell am i supposed to do now? ill be writing an email to amazon about this service anyway

And this is the latest post from a week ago.

Another wonderful experience with i-parcel and Fastway to report. The delivery man knocked the door and I immediately ran to open it. I took about five seconds to reach the door, by which point I could see he'd turned around to leave, having dropped the parcel behind a flowerpot.

Roger Hassenforder

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I’d imagine earning more than I’m earning now. Just for paying his union fees on time every week.

Ah
The nub of it

Flyingsnowball

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Pick a Dept.

Lets say Nurses, its topical, surely it was on your mind when you created the post.

Do you just clear out the nurses?
What about the administrative staff? Other staff like doctors and radiographers. Outsource the lab support (cervical cancer scandal anyone?). Where do you stop? Privatise the entire health service? How and how much will service users pay?

Theres dead weight in both public and private sector. BTW. im not entirely against privatization!

You can’t just privatize the whole health sector in one go. Obviously piece by piece.
But say they put all the useless staff in one ward in Beaumont. Then sacked them all and paid a private company what that ward costs to run and gave them standards to adhere to with financial penalties.

The private company then advertised these jobs at 50 cent more an hour and the media got behind it with a getting rid of the deadweight factor.
Are you saying the private company wouldn’t perform better?

Say the union striked.

Say the government sacked another ward full of staff and privatized that and said they are going to do the same next week and every week until people got back in their box and put a 600 per cent tax on union fees.

Long term the average joe would benefit if he survived the first few weeks.

Flyingsnowball

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ah
The nub of it

I should be ashamed that I don’t think it’s right that a postman earns more than me from the tax pot I pay into to service the state?

A job for life no matter what?
Pension?

If I get let go tomorrow jobbridge will be hassling me with more tax payers money?

The nub of it indeed.

Never mind the lads sleeping on streets and mattresses in shared room with drug adicts smoking gear in the bed beside you. Nah give the tax money to the postman.

Atoms for Peace

I watched a documentary about what happened when the Detroit police was outsourced to an evil corporation.

dxhound2005

Say you limited the wages of the top brass in the private sector to what is paid in the public sector. That would free up a whole load of money to pay their workers a bit extra.

The average basic chief executive pay of the ISEQ companies was €786,000 in 2016 compared to €701,000 in 2015. This was well above the basic pay of the London-listed bosses, which was €568,000.

When bonuses are taken into account, the average total pay in 2016 for the CEOs of the 27 listed companies was €2.1 million compared to €2.08 million the year before, a slight increase of 1%.

Twenty Grand

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I should be ashamed that I don’t think it’s right that a postman earns more than me from the tax pot I pay into to service the state?

A job for life no matter what?
Pension?

If I get let go tomorrow jobbridge will be hassling me with more tax payers money?

The nub of it indeed.

Never mind the lads sleeping on streets and mattresses in shared room with drug adicts smoking gear in the bed beside you. Nah give the tax money to the postman.

So you think you should earn more than public servant because you pay tax. Sure...

From the nurses thread:

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

But I’m earning less this year than I did last year because my taxes have gone up. My taxes pay nurses wages. They are getting a pay rise. They earn more than me and I can garantee you I go home more tired than 90 per cent of them each day.
If all the people in my trade headed off to aus there would be outbreaks of all sorts of diseases.

Nobody cares about us. Bus drivers will be next up. Then gaurds etc etc. Same every year.

Don’t worry they can just raise my taxes.

I think bitterness is the real nub of it.
Youre not subtle anyways :rolleyes:

buried

Yeah man just Privatize everything just like Thatcher did over in the UK back in the 80's. Really makes the whole place such a better total f**king community barren, Grim, Grey $hithole. Then, when the people start realising just what a f**king Grim Grey $hithole it has become from their own governments policies of privatization and share holder stock market Cocksucking, sure just blame the dastardly EU.

beauf

noodler wrote: »

The numbers employed in the public sector are above pre crisis rates.

So not really largely done at all.

There is demand due to population growth.

You reckon we should increase backlogs and have less staff...

https://www.thejournal.ie/passport-applications-staff-3928697-Mar2018/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/outpatient-waiting-lists-at-record-high-again-1.3700508

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/population-growth-is-highest-in-nine-years-36179997.html

end of the road

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

You can’t just privatize the whole health sector in one go. Obviously piece by piece.
But say they put all the useless staff in one ward in Beaumont. Then sacked them all and paid a private company what that ward costs to run and gave them standards to adhere to with financial penalties.

The private company then advertised these jobs at 50 cent more an hour and the media got behind it with a getting rid of the deadweight factor.
Are you saying the private company wouldn’t perform better?

Say the union striked.

Say the government sacked another ward full of staff and privatized that and said they are going to do the same next week and every week until people got back in their box and put a 600 per cent tax on union fees.

Long term the average joe would benefit if he survived the first few weeks.

not when his taxes will quite possibly have to hugely increase to pay for it because we are now dealing with a profit making company who has to answer to shareholders and who will not tolerate the up and down nature of ps funding.

end of the road

stimpson wrote: »

It give flexibility though. A friends husband worked as an IT contractor in a government dept. He changed toner in printers and nothing else. The reason being that the guy whose job it was to change typewriter ribbons had refused to do it and now comes in with the Indo and sits in the canteen all day. I believe Dublin Bus still have conductors on the books who do similar.

conductors went a very long time ago. so i'm afraid you believe incorrectly.

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I should be ashamed that I don’t think it’s right that a postman earns more than me from the tax pot I pay into to service the state?

A job for life no matter what?
Pension?

If I get let go tomorrow jobbridge will be hassling me with more tax payers money?

The nub of it indeed.

Never mind the lads sleeping on streets and mattresses in shared room with drug adicts smoking gear in the bed beside you. Nah give the tax money to the postman.

there are no jobs for life and haven't been for a very long time. a post man's pension is unlikely to be a generous one.

Roger Hassenforder

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

You can’t just privatize the whole health sector in one go. Obviously piece by piece.
But say they put all the useless staff in one ward in Beaumont. Then sacked them all and paid a private company what that ward costs to run and gave them standards to adhere to with financial penalties.

The private company then advertised these jobs at 50 cent more an hour and the media got behind it with a getting rid of the deadweight factor.
Are you saying the private company wouldn’t perform better?

Say the union striked.

Say the government sacked another ward full of staff and privatized that and said they are going to do the same next week and every week until people got back in their box and put a 600 per cent tax on union fees.

Long term the average joe would benefit if he survived the first few weeks.

So its privatise poorly performing nurses?

What KPIs would you define for these nurses?
How would you seperate the "wheat from the chaff"?

troyzer

Over half of my public sector agency has outsourced contractors. Many of these hired on a legally questionable "self-employed" basis.

There's more privatisation in the public sector already than you might think.

Roger Hassenforder

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I should be ashamed that I don’t think it’s right that a postman earns more than me from the tax pot I pay into to service the state?

A job for life no matter what?
Pension?

If I get let go tomorrow jobbridge will be hassling me with more tax payers money?

The nub of it indeed.

Never mind the lads sleeping on streets and mattresses in shared room with drug adicts smoking gear in the bed beside you. Nah give the tax money to the postman.

Fcuk it I'm out.
For someone interested in debate, and decrying populist thanks whores, all you seem to have are bitter ramblings .

Enjoy your thread

James Bond Junior

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I watched a documentary about what happened when the Detroit police was outsourced to an evil corporation.

What documentary was that?

Roger Hassenforder

James Bond Junior wrote: »

What documentary was that?

Look up Omni Consumer Products on Wall St. Journal or Financial Times
Mother of all poor business plans.

wrangler

beauf wrote: »

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

There is huge problems with out sourcing, bit it's because public servants in charge of it have little regard for taxpayers money .......and as you say it then becomes a gravy train.
Shameful what's going on

Ush1

troyzer wrote: »

Over half of my public sector agency has outsourced contractors. Many of these hired on a legally questionable "self-employed" basis.

There's more privatisation in the public sector already than you might think.

How so? Huge number of contractors are self employed.

troyzer

Ush1 wrote: »

How so? Huge number of contractors are self employed.

I personally don't understand how I sit in an office next to someone doing EXACTLY the same job as me, working the same hours, reporting to the same boss, carry out the same tasks and yet somehow I'm an employee and they're self employed.

OwaynOTT

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

For a little more than a postman’s wages?

Of course they would have a lad there at 5 am the next morning. My postman used to turn up whenever he wanted. He drank pints with whiskey chasers down the local everyday. 4 of them. Some weeks you got all your post on one day.

Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.

We still have to subsidize the postmens wages though with our taxes.

Don't know if this has been addressed but An Post are winning s lot of the big contracts back, like Littlewoods, becuase of the unreliability of the private delivery crowds like fastway, dpd etc.