What if a forced privatization happened

Flyingsnowball · 30-01-2019 11:04PM #1

I don’t think it ever happened in the civilized world ever but say a public sector department were pushing for more wages.

What would happen if the government had enough of it and threw their hat at it closed that department down.

Obviously these people would strike.

Say then a private company started up and started advertising for these jobs to be filled on less money.

Surely these starving strikers would eventually take the private jobs.

Would there be legal ramifications for the government?

Could they change the law to do away with these ramifications?

Will the first 3 posts be from people trying to get people to press the thanks button on their post?

beauf · 30-01-2019 11:11PM

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

Flyingsnowball · 30-01-2019 11:14PM

beauf wrote: »

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

Yeah agency staff always get paid more in every sector. They can be let go on a day to day basis though.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2019 11:18PM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Yeah agency staff always get paid more in every sector. They can be let go on a day to day basis though.

Tough. It doesn't provide a less expensive service for the end user though. Plus, the transient nature of the workforce can lead to inefficiencies, inconsistences and a general lack of expertise in the function.

doolox · 30-01-2019 11:24PM

I was not too pushed about privatisation until the Tories tried to privatise prisons in the UK. They already have privatised remand prisoner transport and this caused many problems in the race for higher profits. There are just some things you cannot privatise.

I recall visiting my sister in West London back in the 90's and most of the bus services were privatised. The services to outlying towns was cut off at 5.30pm and very infrequent, reflecting a Tatcherite love affair with the private car.

Traffic was brutal as a result.

A similar chaos exists in modern British rail transport so that many people are looking to return to British Rail as a better alternative.

Flyingsnowball · 30-01-2019 11:25PM

Kameron Chilly Gunpoint wrote: »

Tough. It doesn't provide a less expensive service for the end user though. Plus, the transient nature of the workforce can lead to inefficiencies, inconsistences and a general lack of expertise in the function.

I would say different. People tend to be good at their job when they won’t get called back tomorrow if they arnt.

If the long term plan was to close a department, filling it with agency staff until you could dump the department may be quite profitable in the long term. A lot of the building trade has gone agency or self employed. You get paid more but only have work on the day there is work. You can’t be sick for a few years. There’s loads of reasons.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2019 11:28PM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I would say different. People tend to be good at their job when they won’t get called back tomorrow if they arnt.

If the long term plan was to close a department, filling it with agency staff until you could dump the department may be quite profitable in the long term. A lot of the building trade has gone agency or self employed. You get paid more but only have work on the day there is work. You can’t be sick for a few years. There’s loads of reasons.

Goodnight.

That's laughable. Most government departments require staffing all day every day. They're not fitting a tap and waiting for the next job offer to come in.

The premise is ludicrous. I'll leave you to it.

dxhound2005 · 30-01-2019 11:31PM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I would say different. People tend to be good at their job when they won’t get called back tomorrow if they arnt.

How will an employer know that they won't get another bad one the next day?

Flyingsnowball · 30-01-2019 11:34PM

Jeez, it seems all public sector staff are all pulling in the same direction and working hard to be the best at their jobs.
Nobody goes sick a few months before maternity leave and a year after. Nobody just gets left at a desk all day because they like a drink. People get let go fairly regularly for under performance just the same as the private sector.

Anyway now that the few people who race to get on the front page with a smart answer have finished maybe somebody could have a good think about it and come up with something I havnt thought of.
A bit of civilized discussion.

Flyingsnowball · 30-01-2019 11:36PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How will an employer know that they won't get another bad one the next day?

Say I hire a crane driver and banksman from an agency. If they are useless I ring the agency and tell them to send me better staff or I will use a different agency.

30-01-2019 11:39PM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Nobody goes sick a few months before maternity leave and a year after. Nobody just gets left at a desk all day because they like a drink. People get let go fairly regularly for under performance just the same as the private sector.

You've brought your prejudice to the forefront, thus a mature debate is beyond your capabilities.

dxhound2005 · 30-01-2019 11:40PM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Say I hire a crane driver and banksman from an agency. If they are useless I ring the agency and tell them to send me better staff or I will use a different agency.

Very poor performance from the private agency to send out useless workers.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:03AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Very poor performance from the private agency to send out useless workers.

Normally they don’t. That’s why it works great for the business owner. But not the slacker or even average worker. But as long as you stay young fit and fast at what you do you will get an extra few cent an hour.

I think it’s a step too far and the problem with capitalism but for department performance I can see the benefits. Can’t you?

dxhound2005 · 31-01-2019 12:07AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Normally they don’t. That’s why it works great for the business owner. But not the slacker or even average worker. But as long as you stay young fit and fast at what you do you will get an extra few cent an hour.

I think it’s a step too far and the problem with capitalism but for department performance I can see the benefits. Can’t you?

It would very much depend on the type of job. If a postman did not turn up for his delivery shift at 5 am, I don't think an agency could supply someone who could replace him. Do you?

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:14AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It would very much depend on the type of job. If a postman did not turn up for his delivery shift at 5 am, I don't think an agency could supply someone who could replace him. Do you?

For a little more than a postman’s wages?

Of course they would have a lad there at 5 am the next morning. My postman used to turn up whenever he wanted. He drank pints with whiskey chasers down the local everyday. 4 of them. Some weeks you got all your post on one day.

Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.

We still have to subsidize the postmens wages though with our taxes.

stimpson · 31-01-2019 12:14AM

Kameron Chilly Gunpoint wrote: »

Tough. It doesn't provide a less expensive service for the end user though. Plus, the transient nature of the workforce can lead to inefficiencies, inconsistences and a general lack of expertise in the function.

It give flexibility though. A friends husband worked as an IT contractor in a government dept. He changed toner in printers and nothing else. The reason being that the guy whose job it was to change typewriter ribbons had refused to do it and now comes in with the Indo and sits in the canteen all day. I believe Dublin Bus still have conductors on the books who do similar.

dxhound2005 · 31-01-2019 12:19AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

For a little more than a postman’s wages?

Of course they would have a lad there at 5 am the next morning. My postman used to turn up whenever he wanted. He drank pints with whiskey chasers down the local everyday. 4 of them. Some weeks you got all your post on one day.

Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.

We still have to subsidize the postmens wages though with our taxes.

Ask one of the private operations to deliver two envelopes to Donegal and Wexford and offer them two Euros. I don't think they would do it.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:24AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Ask one of the private operations to deliver two envelopes to Donegal and Wexford and offer them two Euros. I don't think they would do it.

Maybe but parcel motel is there.
The thing is, you can’t live in rural backwaters and expect subsidized city service. If you want to live there you need to accept you may have to drive 5 k once a week to the nearest parcel motel.

beauf · 31-01-2019 12:24AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

...Look at the success of all these private delivery crowds when the public delivery crowd were operating at a loss for years when they were the only show in town.....

They charge more and they cherry pick what they will do.

Look at the UK rising postal costs.

beauf · 31-01-2019 12:26AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Maybe but parcel motel is there.
The thing is, you can’t live in rural backwaters and expect subsidized city service. If you want to live there you need to accept you may have to drive 5 k once a week to the nearest parcel motel.

So you are agreeing privatization costs more.

To be profit making it has to raise costs, and cut losses.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:29AM

beauf wrote: »

So you are agreeing privatization costs more.

To be profit making it has to raise costs, and cut losses.

Of course it may cost more but taxes arnt spent subsidizing it. It runs efficiently not like a swinging trough.

dxhound2005 · 31-01-2019 12:32AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Maybe but parcel motel is there.
The thing is, you can’t live in rural backwaters and expect subsidized city service. If you want to live there you need to accept you may have to drive 5 k once a week to the nearest parcel motel.

The envelopes were for the urban areas of Letterkenny and Enniscorthy.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:36AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The envelopes were for the urban areas of Letterkenny and Enniscorthy.

Were they that important that a man should be paid to drive there in a van, probably with another man who delivered the letter because the first man was hired as a driver and not a deliverer.

During so many public service emergencies.

On the same wage as a nurse.

But not important enough for you to pay a fiver.

dxhound2005 · 31-01-2019 12:45AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Were they that important that a man should be paid to drive there in a van, probably with another man who delivered the letter because the first man was hired as a driver and not a deliverer.

During so many public service emergencies.

On the same wage as a nurse.

But not important enough for you to pay a fiver.

Better than the man (or woman) from the private courier company who threw a parcel over my garden wall. I found it a few days later. Bad enough, but it wasn't even for my house. Same house number, but wrong street.

Roger Hassenforder · 31-01-2019 12:49AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

maybe somebody could have a good think about it and come up with something I havnt thought of...

I've had a good think, and I reckon theres a lot you havent thought of.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:52AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I've had a good think, and I reckon theres a lot you havent thought of.

Like what?
Whatd happen?

noodler · 31-01-2019 12:54AM

beauf wrote: »

Most of the public sector has outsourced a lot its work to the private sector. So what you asking for is largely already been done where they can.
Except the contractors and private sector treat it like a gravy train, and it ends up costing more money then it saves.

https://www.thejournal.ie/midwives-nurses-4309347-Oct2018/

Social housing outsourced to the private rental market.

The numbers employed in the public sector are above pre crisis rates.

So not really largely done at all.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 12:56AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Better than the man (or woman) from the private courier company who threw a parcel over my garden wall. I found it a few days later. Bad enough, but it wasn't even for my house. Same house number, but wrong street.

Are you honestly saying an post never had a lost letter?

When I was a young lad the post box would get set on fire weekly and the postman would have his bike with all the letters in the front basket stolen every few months. Never mind heading two streets over to give somebody a letter that was in the pile for my street and the postman didn’t sort the letters because it’s not his job.

So when he got a letter for snowball street in the pile for snowball avenue, he just delivered it in the corresponding number.

dxhound2005 · 31-01-2019 01:07AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Are you honestly saying an post never had a lost letter?

When I was a young lad the post box would get set on fire weekly and the postman would have his bike with all the letters in the front basket stolen every few months. Never mind heading two streets over to give somebody a letter that was in the pile for my street and the postman didn’t sort the letters because it’s not his job.

So when he got a letter for snowball street in the pile for snowball avenue, he just delivered it in the corresponding number.

There is a forum on Boards about private delivery companies. They are a disaster. This is one typical recent post.

4 packages came to my home over the past fortnight. Fastway is the courier company being used.

I suspect the driver has been here before and knows me as a Ms Wolle. All the packages are not for me or my family. It's for a different Wolle family who live down the road about a 10 minute walk away.

The first time it happened, the parcel was left at the front door. The next day when I got time, I walked down to the other Wolle house and left the package into them. When I came home there was another package delivered to my home and left at the front door for the other Wolle.

Same thing has happened yesterday and again today.

The driver isn't knocking at all. The driver just leaves them outside at our door.

I tried phoning fastway, to clear this up and get the driver to come back and collect the package and deliver it to the correct house. I got through to a machine that directed me to use their website and tracking if I am a customer. If I was a business owner or something to login to your account.

Once or twice would be ok, but this is number 4 now within such a short space.

Flyingsnowball · 31-01-2019 01:14AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is a forum on Boards about private delivery companies. They are a disaster. This is one typical recent post.

4 packages came to my home over the past fortnight. Fastway is the courier company being used.

I suspect the driver has been here before and knows me as a Ms Wolle. All the packages are not for me or my family. It's for a different Wolle family who live down the road about a 10 minute walk away.

The first time it happened, the parcel was left at the front door. The next day when I got time, I walked down to the other Wolle house and left the package into them. When I came home there was another package delivered to my home and left at the front door for the other Wolle.

Same thing has happened yesterday and again today.

The driver isn't knocking at all. The driver just leaves them outside at our door.

I tried phoning fastway, to clear this up and get the driver to come back and collect the package and deliver it to the correct house. I got through to a machine that directed me to use their website and tracking if I am a customer. If I was a business owner or something to login to your account.

Once or twice would be ok, but this is number 4 now within such a short space.

An post drop a letter in your door now saying we knocked and you didn’t answer please go to depot according to people here. It’s a new market for all these private companies. The good ones will prevail and the bad ones will lose jobs and contracts. That’s privatization for you. Survival of the fittest.

Are you saying an post would still have the market share it does after all these years if it was a private company and ran how it’s ran?

That drunken postman I was telling you about got his son a job when he was nearing retirement. Son was known locally for his laziness and slothenly nature but is still in the postal service. I’d imagine earning more than I’m earning now. Just for paying his union fees on time every week.

Roger Hassenforder · 31-01-2019 01:21AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Like what?
Whatd happen?

Pick a Dept.

Lets say Nurses, its topical, surely it was on your mind when you created the post.

Do you just clear out the nurses?
What about the administrative staff? Other staff like doctors and radiographers. Outsource the lab support (cervical cancer scandal anyone?). Where do you stop? Privatise the entire health service? How and how much will service users pay?

Theres dead weight in both public and private sector. BTW. im not entirely against privatization!

What if a forced privatization happened

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