Hurray for Europe! New Bank Holiday proposed

Hotblack Desiato

June Lemon Misogynist wrote: »

Odds of Turkey joining before 2030: 3/1

Don't waste your money.
Odds are not probabilities, they're just a way of enticing people to risk their money.

Or Evidence they or others outside (but beside) Europe, can't 'ever' become part of the EU (primarily an 'economic' union, not soley based on geographical borders).

Nope, not going to fall for the 'reversal of proof' fallacy.

Ukraine (Eurasia) could well join at some stage (within 15yrs).

Eurasia? Ukraine is as European as every other country in Europe is.

Hotblack Desiato

professore wrote: »

Were you alive pre 2008? All the great minds then were singing off the same hymn sheet about the "soft landing" and how rock solid the banks were. All brought about by the euro. That cost us multiples of any grants we ever got.

The EEC was a great idea, this EU not so much.

The banking collapse was caused by domestic policy failures and the failure of Ireland to regulate its banks properly. Not by the EU or the euro.

maccored

isnt it on mayday, which is a holiday already?

Loughc

maccored wrote: »

isnt it on mayday, which is a holiday already?

Nope it's May 9th, which is just after May day.... meaning we would have 2 bank holidays in the same week...

4068ac1elhodqr

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Don't waste your money.
Odds are not probabilities, they're just a way of enticing people to risk their money.

Odds, actually, are real-word cash-money risk-value calculated assesments.

If you think winning the em-lotto is 'comparable', equal, or more likely as Turkey joining - maybe read up on basic probability of calling 6-balls across an 1-50 array. [Clue: It's over 130,000,000/1]

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Nope, not going to fall for the 'reversal of proof' fallacy.

So no comment then, that Turkey 'isn't' actually in Europe, fine.
Yet it is also a clear future candidate for an expanding EU, hmmm.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Eurasia? Ukraine is as European as every other country in Europe is.

That region is often referred to Eurasia.
Ukraine (Україна) feels about as European as Moscow, (which 'technically' is also in Europe) if you really want to compare like-for-like.

WinnyThePoo

Haha funny.. The anti EU posters just crapping out the same easily countered talking points.

Have the laugh at turkey getting membership under erdogen.

Ireland is pro EU. The polls always back this up.

Top tip. Get a book such as John pinders - a short introduction to the EU and actually educate yourself.

ArchXStanton

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Haha funny.. The anti EU posters just crapping out the same easily countered talking points.

Have the laugh at turkey getting membership under erdogen.

Ireland is pro EU. The polls always back this up.

Top tip. Get a book such as John pinders - a short introduction to the EU and actually educate yourself.

Be interesting to see a poll if people wanted a federal Europe...

Plenty of books out there too that tell you things the EU would rather you didn't know

WinnyThePoo

ArchXStanton wrote: »

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Haha funny.. The anti EU posters just crapping out the same easily countered talking points.

Have the laugh at turkey getting membership under erdogen.

Ireland is pro EU. The polls always back this up.

Top tip. Get a book such as John pinders - a short introduction to the EU and actually educate yourself.

Be interesting to see a poll if people wanted a federal Europe...

Plenty of books out there too that tell you things the EU would rather you didn't know

What's the next talking point on your sheet?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Stupid statement. They didn't really need propaganda in the USSR, if you were a problem as an individual they just got rid of you and if you tried to break away as a country they just invaded.

Britain joined voluntarily and is leaving voluntarily.

The USSR didn't have propaganda. You heard it here first.

suicide_circus

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Haha funny.. The anti EU posters just crapping out the same easily countered talking points.

Have the laugh at turkey getting membership under erdogen.

Ireland is pro EU. The polls always back this up.

Top tip. Get a book such as John pinders - a short introduction to the EU and actually educate yourself.

there's a difference between being anti EU and being of the opinion that the project has gone far enough

Kidchameleon

I will not be celebrating EU/Europe day. I will be in work. The EU is an absolutley discusting, tyranical, anti-democratic and rotten orgaization. Ill take the bad roads please.

4068ac1elhodqr

suicide_circus wrote: »

there's a difference between being anti EU and being of the opinion that the project has gone far enough

Agree, 26/27 countries is plenty, now there six more from the Western Balkans on the way in (with 1/2 of German GDP-PP). Of course you're 'anti-this or anti-that' if you even question anything.

Back to the topic, an extra bank holiday would be fine if the lowest countries got one, folks such as Sweden (usually don't include xmas as an official holiday, yet most have it off) and Germany get plenty already.

That would actually be in the spirit of haronisation (like they have for the coming state retirement ages of 65-67) and ambitions for harmonic taxisation and so on.

The timing of it also rubs salt in the brexit wounds (uk is one of the lowest in the world for pubic holidays).

Not to mention Italy heading into recession (negative growth in the last quater) and the pending loss of uk contributions.

As China oubuilds the US, and wealth continues to shift to the far East, can the eu really afford more holidays?

ArchXStanton

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I will not be celebrating EU/Europe day. I will be in work. The EU is an absolutley discusting, tyranical, anti-democratic and rotten orgaization. Ill take the bad roads please.

Roads that were put in with big business in mind and heavily lobbied by the European round table of industrialists, that bunch of rich old capitalists that seem to have a direct line to the commission..

http://www.caef.org.uk/d29tens.html

Kidchameleon

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Roads that were put in with big business in mind and heavily lobbied by the European round table of industrialists, that bunch of rich old capitalists...

No I was clearly refering to the preceeding roads

ArchXStanton

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No I was clearly refering to the preceeding roads

I know, I was sticking the boot in to the usual cry of "sure look at da roads they gave us"

Kidchameleon

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I know, I was sticking the boot in to the usual cry of "sure look at da roads they gave us"

My sarcasm detectector is broken today sorry, my bad.

alloywheel

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The banking collapse was caused by domestic policy failures and the failure of Ireland to regulate its banks properly. Not by the EU or the euro.

I disagree there. We were linked in with the euro and low interest rates during the boom ( 2001 - 2007 , to suit the German economy. Our interest rates should have been much higher here, given the rampant property inflation, wage increases etc in those years. Our banks borrowed off the EU, who then shafted us.

alloywheel

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

As that relates to electoral turnout, Britain is far more democratic. The turnout for the last five UK General Elections up to 2017-

2017 68.8%
2015 66.1%
2010 65.1%
2005 61.4%
2001 59.4%

Not fabulous, but European elections just see lower, and lower, and lower turnout.

42.5% in 2014.

You have just got to admire the British too for sticking to their principles and not deciding to have another referendum forced on them because the EU did not like the result of the first one.

Hotblack Desiato

alloywheel wrote: »

I disagree there. We were linked in with the euro and low interest rates during the boom ( 2001 - 2007 , to suit the German economy. Our interest rates should have been much higher here, given the rampant property inflation, wage increases etc in those years. Our banks borrowed off the EU, who then shafted us.

Or we could have regulated the banks and imposed borrowing limits (like we have now)...

also to say they "borrowed off the EU" is incorrect

alloywheel

To be pedantic ,abbreviation for borrowed off Institutions / other banks in the EU.

We can all agree regulation here was a disaster.

prinzeugen

seamus wrote: »

That doesn't mean FPTP is more democratic. It's a mistake to consider democratic decisions to be correct and unchangeable. Many bad decisions have been made democratically.
If a country's governing structures are not properly balanced to provide defence against bad decisions, you end up with runaway damaging policies. Like Brexit.

What is "defence" against a "bad" decision? Corrective mechanisms that can kick in to identify when a decision is going to cause more harm than good, and work to resolve the conflict between the common good and the democratic voice.

This has been broken in the UK, quite clearly. Not only is parliament being run by a government who has a minority of the popular vote, but they are also running away to implement the democratic voice without any regard to the common good.

Well no. Because the House of Lords is accountable to no-one. There is no link between a voter and a peer. Most of them inherited their seat from their father.

In the EU system, a small number of seats are appointed, but those appointments made by democratically elected officials. Thus there is a link between every seat in the EU and the voter. It's not perfect, no system is.

On top of half of the UK's governance system being unelected, the head of state is completely unappointed, having inherited her title from her father.

The UK can barely call itself a democracy. It's currently being run by a government who do not have a common majority mandate.

You might want to read up on how the UK parliament works. The "unelected head of state" has zero, I repeat, ZERO political power. Its a token role. Has been for hundreds of years.

The lords are accountable. The lords role has and still is a check and balance on the commons. The lords is there to prevent the runaway policies. A quick Google of how a bill is passed in Westminster would tell you this.

And as for the conflict between common good and democracy...

That sounds like its straight out a Soviet propaganda book.

Who decides what is for the common good? The party or the people?

Hotblack Desiato

prinzeugen wrote: »

You might want to read up on how the UK parliament works. The "unelected head of state" has zero, I repeat, ZERO political power. Its a token role. Has been for hundreds of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_in_council

The monarch can quite legally rule without parliament on their own initiative, or on the 'advice' of a PM who no longer commands a majority in parliament.

For instance, put the UK on a nuclear war footing without a vote in parliament:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_to_war

Since this legislation is pre-drafted, it would be either rushed through Parliament using the Parliament Acts or be done through an Order in Council, which is basically a royal decree. The bills themselves would be passed in three stages. The first stage is a covert review of what to do and what needs to be revised, done only by ministers and civil servants. The second stage is more overt and would include 24-hour manning of government departments, people being briefed of their wartime roles, testing of sirens and other communication systems, cancelling police leave and mobilising the armed forces (including reservists). The third and final stage would be the activation of war measures, such as local councils setting up refugee centres and the like.

The actual bills would effectively be enabling acts allowing for the implementation of the pre-drafted legislation. The bills' content was not divulged both on the grounds of national security and because it would be politically suicidal for the party in charge at that time to do so considering their draconian nature.

But da Queen doesn't have to worry about electoral accountability or any of that stuff.

The lords are accountable.

LOL

Didn't Tony Blair set a record for creating life peers? Where's the accountability there?

The lords is there to prevent the runaway policies.

They did a fantastic job in obstructing home rule :rolleyes: What are they doing to stop the brexit disaster? Which will make everyone except Rees-Mogg poorer?

And as for the conflict between common good and democracy...

That sounds like its straight out a Soviet propaganda book.

Who decides what is for the common good? The party or the people?

Under the UK's rotten borough first-past-the-post system Thatcher could win large majorities with barely 40% of the votes.

Setting up a successful third party (when most developed democracies have fourth and fifth parties that can participate in government) is all but impossible.

The big problem comes when you have a near-deadlock, like the last election, and that's when the unionists step in and gain massively disproportionate influence.

It's crazy to call a system where up to 30% of the votes cast are worthless as 'democracy'.

donegal_man

So lads, are ye in favour of an extra public holiday?

BBDBB

Sure why not, its only bread and circuses that keep the populous quiet

namloc1980

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I will not be celebrating EU/Europe day. I will be in work. The EU is an absolutley discusting, tyranical, anti-democratic and rotten orgaization. Ill take the bad roads please.

You wouldn't recognise tyranny if it came up to you with a big sign around its neck saying, I am tyrannical. As for anti-democratic, that old chestnut keeps getting bandied about.

suicide_circus

BBDBB wrote: »

Sure why not, its only bread and circuses that keep the populous quiet

the more things change, the more they stay the same.

An extra day off....it's a stunt that a dictator who feels his popularity crumbling might pull.

alloywheel

suicide_circus wrote: »

the more things change, the more they stay the same.

An extra day off....it's a stunt that a dictator who feels his popularity crumbling might pull.

No surprise the EU eurozone countries have the lowest growth of all areas in the world this past number of years, lower than the UK, US, China, all other parts of the world.
Italy has just entered recession.
The EU will be no more in 10 years and we'll be grovelling again.

Hotblack Desiato

namloc1980 wrote: »

As for anti-democratic, that old chestnut keeps getting bandied about.

It's one of those phrases which is useful as an idiot filter.

ArchXStanton

namloc1980 wrote: »

You wouldn't recognise tyranny if it came up to you with a big sign around its neck saying, I am tyrannical. As for anti-democratic, that old chestnut keeps getting bandied about.

when you hear what comes out of Juncker it's quite clear what the EU thinks of democracy and the democratic process, I'm surprised people are even putting up with this nonsense in this day and age

4068ac1elhodqr

donegal_man wrote: »

So lads, are ye in favour of an extra public holiday?

Only for the countries that have a average deficit in holiday allowances (so that's yes for Ireland).

Know of Engineers in Germany that currently enjoy 6wks holidays, upto 13 public holidays, and Fridays off. The Swedes often don't count Christmas as a public holiday, but most have it off as paid leave anyway.

You know, in the EU's spirit of 'harmonisation' et al.