Hurray for Europe! New Bank Holiday proposed

Lefty Bicek

Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals we dare not present to them directly. (...) This approach of 'divide and ratify' is clearly unacceptable. Perhaps it is a good exercise in presentation. But it would confirm to European citizens the notion that European construction is a procedure organised behind their backs by lawyers and diplomats.

Valery Giscard d'Estaing, on the Lisbon Treaty, Le Monde, 15 June 2007

Hotblack Desiato

ArchXStanton wrote: »

And what happens when you vote against the EU treaties like happened here twice?

Not this crap again. Asked and answered a hundred times before and you know it.

Or in the case of the French and Dutch rejecting one, all the others were cancelled

Not sure what your point was here, should they have continued having votes in other countries when it was clear it was not going to succeed? If they had, would you have been happy or complaining?

ArchXStanton

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Valery Giscard d'Estaing, on the Lisbon Treaty, Le Monde, 15 June 2007

Completely laughable that the EU masquerades as some gold standard of democracy..

Hotblack Desiato

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Britain is far more democratic.

Britain has an unrepresentative first past the post system, and an entirely unelected House of Lords

Bzzt. Try again.

ArchXStanton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not this crap again. Asked and answered a hundred times before and you know it.



Not sure what your point was here, should they have continued having votes in other countries when it was clear it was not going to succeed? If they had, would you have been happy or complaining?

And I think deep down you know it's dubious democracy, I'll leave it once again to big JC...

On French referendum over EU constitution

“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”

Hotblack Desiato

I do find it amusing that the same people who complain about a democratic deficit in the EU also complain about it becoming a federal state or "superstate". If they want a directly democratic EU (instead of the indirectly democratic* EU we have now) then it has to become much more like a federal state or "superstate".


*indirect meaning governments send representatives (Except MEPs which are directly elected)

ArchXStanton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I do find it amusing that the same people who complain about a democratic deficit in the EU also complain about it becoming a federal state or "superstate". If they want a directly democratic EU (instead of the indirectly democratic* EU we have now) then it has to become much more like a federal state or "superstate".

To do that they'd need to go back and ask the people if they want this superstate wet dream in the first place... That's the democratic deficit in the EU

4068ac1elhodqr

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If the six EEC nations had had that attitude in 1972 we'd never have been let in.

Ire joined about the same time as the UK as a sort of package or similar nations into a very small economic union within a localised area.

But how many is too many 6, 9, 27, 33, 48?

And what geographical area is too large?
W.Balkans, Turkey, how about Ukraine and North Africa...

Hotblack Desiato

Turkey and North Africa are not European countries

We can and do have trade deals with them though

Hotblack Desiato

ArchXStanton wrote: »

To do that they'd need to go back and ask the people if they want this superstate wet dream in the first place... That's the democratic deficit in the EU

Sorry, what? A referendum would be a democratic deficit?

4068ac1elhodqr

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Turkey and North Africa are not European countries

But Turkey wants to become part of the EU, does it not?

Many North African countries are mentioned in the Barcelona Agreement (total of of 48 countries) under the umbrella of the 'Union for the Mediterranean'.

Some may well become future candidates to join the EU, depending on the success level of economic, politcal and cultural exchanges.

Hotblack Desiato

June Lemon Misogynist wrote: »

But Turkey wants to become part of the EU, does it not?

I want to win the lotto, doesn't mean it can or will happen
And if the people selling the tickets won't sell me one it certainly won't happen

Many North African countries are mentioned in the Barcelona Agreement (total of of 48 countries) under the umbrella of the 'Union for the Mediterranean'.

Some may well become future candidates to join the EU, depending on the success level of economic, politcal and cultural exchanges.

Evidence please that North African countries can become candidate states. Association agreements are not qualifications to become member states.

prinzeugen

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Britain has an unrepresentative first past the post system, and an entirely unelected House of Lords

Bzzt. Try again.

Which the public voted to retain in a referendum about FPTP many years ago. The majority of the Lords seats are now nominated rather that inherited as in the past. Nominated. Just like EU roles.

So if you think the House of Lords is an undemocratic, unelected house then using your yardstick, the EU exactly is the same.

Lefty Bicek

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Britain has an unrepresentative first past the post system, and an entirely unelected House of Lords

I lived in the UK for many years, and certainly long enough to be aware of it's shortcomings.

Farage agrees with you of course, as far as you go. It is regrettable that his party can win 4m votes and end up with just one seat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11593312/nigel-farage-attacks-electoral-system-after-election.html

Nevertheless, the measure of democracy is as much about voters and their engagement, as it is with institutions. Which is what I had in mind.

As that relates to electoral turnout, Britain is far more democratic. The turnout for the last five UK General Elections up to 2017-

2017 68.8%
2015 66.1%
2010 65.1%
2005 61.4%
2001 59.4%

Not fabulous, but European elections just see lower, and lower, and lower turnout.

42.5% in 2014.

The tweaked figures will also come as an embarrassment for EU officials who had hailed the results of the 2014 poll for finally reversing a trend of declining voter engagement with EU polls.

The Parliament in particular ran its entire campaign on an assumption that the economic crisis would boost voter turnout, with the slogan “This time it’s different”.

It was, but not in the way that lawmakers expected.

Jaume Duch Guillot, the Parliament spokesperson, said on election night that the EU had witnessed “a historical moment because for the first time since 1979, the long term trend of declining turnout has been reversed”.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-elections-2014/news/it-s-official-last-eu-election-had-lowest-ever-turnout/

So, bzzt, yourself.


.

SEPT 23 1989

Mr. teddywinkles

When did north Africa become part of Europe

Mr. teddywinkles

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

When did north Africa become part of Europe

The Indian Ocean and the Caribbean are, apparently, so why not?

Mr. teddywinkles

suicide_circus wrote: »

people were European before the EU and they'll be European when it's gone.

Irish first thanks

4068ac1elhodqr

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I want to win the lotto, doesn't mean it can or will happen
And if the people selling the tickets won't sell me one it certainly won't happen

Get informed better?
Odds of winning Euromillion: 130,000,000/1
Odds of Turkey joining before 2030: 3/1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Evidence please that North African countries can become candidate states. Association agreements are not qualifications to become member states.

Or Evidence they or others outside (but beside) Europe, can't 'ever' become part of the EU (primarily an 'economic' union, not soley based on geographical borders).

The Barcelona Agreement promotes cultural (including movement of people) and economic/political partnerships across 44 countries.

Saying that, N'Africa is decades away, but Ukraine (Eurasia) could well join at some stage (within 15yrs). There is also desire from (and to) Turkey (95% Asia) to join at some stage in the future, perhaps circa 2030.

prinzeugen

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

When did north Africa become part of Europe

When Spain established a colony there. One they refuse to give up. Just like a wee bit of Canada is part of the EU thanks to direct rule from Paris.

Look at the back of a €20 or €50 note. All the wee bits. EU colonies. From Canada to the south Pacific.

Hypocrites.

Duckworth_Luas

What do you think of when you contemplate the EU?

For many British politicians its Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjluqIEmRXc

... Hitler, Hitler, Hitler and Napoleon!

seamus

prinzeugen wrote: »

Which the public voted to retain in a referendum about FPTP many years ago. The majority of the Lords seats are now nominated rather that inherited as in the past. Nominated. Just like EU roles.

That doesn't mean FPTP is more democratic. It's a mistake to consider democratic decisions to be correct and unchangeable. Many bad decisions have been made democratically.
If a country's governing structures are not properly balanced to provide defence against bad decisions, you end up with runaway damaging policies. Like Brexit.

What is "defence" against a "bad" decision? Corrective mechanisms that can kick in to identify when a decision is going to cause more harm than good, and work to resolve the conflict between the common good and the democratic voice.

This has been broken in the UK, quite clearly. Not only is parliament being run by a government who has a minority of the popular vote, but they are also running away to implement the democratic voice without any regard to the common good.

So if you think the House of Lords is an undemocratic, unelected house then using your yardstick, the EU exactly is the same.

Well no. Because the House of Lords is accountable to no-one. There is no link between a voter and a peer. Most of them inherited their seat from their father.

In the EU system, a small number of seats are appointed, but those appointments made by democratically elected officials. Thus there is a link between every seat in the EU and the voter. It's not perfect, no system is.

On top of half of the UK's governance system being unelected, the head of state is completely unappointed, having inherited her title from her father.

The UK can barely call itself a democracy. It's currently being run by a government who do not have a common majority mandate.

professore

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The people who claim to be able to see the things that nobody else can see ('emperor has no clothes') are almost invariably wrong, they are seeing things which are not there or are interpreting wrongly what they do see.

Were you alive pre 2008? All the great minds then were singing off the same hymn sheet about the "soft landing" and how rock solid the banks were. All brought about by the euro. That cost us multiples of any grants we ever got.

The EEC was a great idea, this EU not so much.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Well no. Because the House of Lords is accountable to no-one. There is no link between a voter and a peer. Most of them inherited their seat from their father.

There are 790 members of the house of Lords. 92 of them are hereditary Peers. That is not, by any stretch of the imagination "Most".

seamus wrote: »

The UK can barely call itself a democracy. It's currently being run by a government who do not have a common majority mandate.

so, much like Ireland then?

seamus

Aegir wrote: »

There are 790 members of the house of Lords. 92 of them are hereditary Peers. That is not, by any stretch of the imagination "Most".

Ah yes, I forgot. The rest are appointed members for life by the Queen, or are senior members of the clergy.

That's much more democratic.

so, much like Ireland then?

Well no. The UK has a majority government with a minority mandate: 43.3% of voters.

Ireland has a minority government with a minority mandate, supported by a confidence agreement that forms a majority mandate. This represents about 55% of the voters.

In Ireland, the majority are still very much in control of the Dáil. In the UK, they are not. 56.7% of UK voters are being led along by the votes of the minority, with no say in how their country is running.

donaghs

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Vincent Browne questioning the ECB is very enlightening.

The EU will mostly provide us with a good standard of living. As the extra holiday shows. The Irish political system has had accountability issues, but there are still means of getting answers and voting governments out of power. The lack of accountability in the EU, particularly for smaller nations will become more of an issue over time.

Brexit is a bit of a distraction due the "British" factor. You can see similar symptom in Denmark's rejection of Maastricht in 1992, or more recent Dutch and French rejection of the European Constitution.
Its an interesting fact that the 1916 Rising occurred during a period of unprecedented economic prosperity in Ireland. The EU seems to be deaf to the fact that people will always wants this accountability.

Lefty Bicek

seamus wrote: »

Ah yes, I forgot.

No you didn't, you spoofer.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Ah yes, I forgot. The rest are appointed members for life by the Queen, or are senior members of the clergy.

appointed on the advice of the government. The Queen can't just randomly appoint Peers/

seamus wrote: »

Well no. The UK has a majority government with a minority mandate: 43.3% of voters.

No, the UK currently has a minority government. The same as Ireland.

seamus wrote: »

In Ireland, the majority are still very much in control of the Dáil. In the UK, they are not. 56.7% of UK voters are being led along by the votes of the minority, with no say in how their country is running.

a massive 25.5% of voters gave Fine Gael their first vote. Last time I checked, they are the ones calling the shots.

VinLieger

Aegir wrote: »

so, much like Ireland then?

Except for the coalition of the conservatives and lib dems in 2010 thanks to FPTP the UK hasnt elected a government that was supported by the majority of voters since the 1930's.

Hotblack Desiato

prinzeugen wrote: »

Which the public voted to retain in a referendum about FPTP many years ago. The majority of the Lords seats are now nominated rather that inherited as in the past. Nominated. Just like EU roles.

So if you think the House of Lords is an undemocratic, unelected house then using your yardstick, the EU exactly is the same.

Commissioners are nominated by national governments, yes - but that is very different to giving a lifetime term as an unelected legislator to your cronies, which is what the House of Lords now is.

Commissioners have a limited term of office, and can initiate legislation - but to become law it must pass the European Parliament, which is directly elected.

BTW the referendum on changing the voting system in the UK was not proportional representation, but a poorly thought out 'alternative vote' system - and the larger party in the coalition government campaigned against the proposal.