Ireland has highest proportion of 25-54 year olds with 3rd level education in Europe

steddyeddy

The University Observer reports we're doing OK in terms of education. I work in the UK and the states and I am always proud of the Irish education system. We don't have the same two-tier system that's present in the UK or USA at secondary level and no matter what your background you can attend third level. Also for such a small country we're over represented abroad in STEM fields. Is this evidence that we're doing the right thing in regards education?

Half of Irish people between the ages of 25 – 54 years old have successfully completed tertiary education, making Ireland the country with the highest proportion of third level-educated in the European Union and the European Economic Area (EEA).

Eurostat, the statistical arm of the European Commission published an article containing the information on 24th January to mark the International Day of Education, which acknowledges education’s contribution to peace and development.

The figures from the European Statistical Office, relating to the year 2017, show that Cyprus and Finland follow Ireland with the second and third highest proportion in the same demographic at 47 per cent and 46 per cent respectively. Larger EU countries such as France, Poland and Germany have smaller proportions of people who have completed tertiary education, falling in at 39 per cent, 35 per cent and 29 per cent respectively.


For 55 – 74 year olds in Ireland, however, the proportion of those who have attained third level education drops to 26 per cent, still above the EU average of 21 per cent.

Romania has the lowest proportion of its population in the 25 – 54 year old demographic to have completed tertiary education and is joint last with Malta for those in the 55 – 74 demographic.

Among the EU population aged 20 – 24, women tend to have a slightly higher level of educational attainment than men, with an EU average of 85.9 per cent for women and 80.9 per cent for men. This holds true for Ireland, where 95.5 per cent of women in this group are third level-educated, compared to 92.9 per cent of men. Countries such as Slovakia and Romania are the exception, where 90 per cent and 80 per cent of men have attained tertiary education, compared to 87.6 per cent and 79.5 per cent for women.

Feisar

So a trade is useless? Also the quality of the degree does not get factored in.

Your Face

Quantity over quality.

Tuco88

Id say most of em are not worth the paper they are printed on sadly.

Supply and demand.

_Kaiser_

Your Face wrote: »

Quantity over quality.

I seem to recall reports in recent times questioning the difficulty level of recent exams and courses alright. By all accounts even the Leaving is easier than it used to be.

There's also something to be said about everyone having degrees and masters not only driving down wages through oversupply, but also cutting out those who don't have one, even though their ability and experience may be much stronger.

As someone who manages an IT department and occasionally hires, I'm far more interested in someone's experience and attitude than just what paperwork they have. Cop on, ambition and someone who "gets" the needs of the role is far more important to me.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I work in the UK and the states and I am always proud of the Irish education system. We don't have the same two-tier system that's present in the UK or USA at secondary level

One of the most extraordinary achievements of fee-paying schools in Ireland is convincing people they don't exist.

What's the evidence that we don't have a two-tier education system?

TheValeyard

Nothing wrong with having a highly educated population. Lifts us all out of the darkness.

Grayson

Don't the exams and the amount of work put in have to meet certain minimum standards? that's why we have level 7, 8 etc qualifications.

I will say the advent of the internet has made college easier. Before it was hours in the library looking up journals and articles. Now you get it all on jstore. Even maths is a bit easier because there's so many youtube tutorials available.

kneemos

Feisar wrote: »

So a trade is useless? Also the quality of the degree does not get factored in.

More money in a trade than any degree.

_Kaiser_

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Nothing wrong with having a highly educated population. Lifts us all out of the darkness.

Agreed as a general point, but not everyone is suited to higher education and not everyone with higher education is a good fit for a given role.

We shouldn't abandon the first group, and try to ensure that the qualifications of the second group are matched with the right attitude and cop on too.

I know people who did the Microsoft exams years ago purely by studying the questions. They'd freely admit they don't actually know much about what they studied, but they have the piece of paper. Contrast that to a guy/girl who's spent 6/7 years working hands-on with the technology but doesn't have the exam.. which is the better hire?

Sam Quentin

That's just blôody marvelous,send them all off to college.
Shir who would want a trade earning great money!?

orourkeda1977

I'm studying for my third degree.

I'm unemployed.

Go college education.

godtabh

Not every one is suited for college/needs to go to college. Way to many people going for the sake of going and earning a useless degree.

Tuco88

Tuco88 wrote: »

Id say most of em are not worth the paper they are printed on sadly.

Supply and demand.

godtabh wrote: »

Not every one is suited for college/needs to go to college. Way to many people going for the sake of going and earning a useless degree.

Indeed .............loads of folk in CO roles etc with p1ss poor degrees in various w@nkology.

Roger Hassenforder

kneemos wrote: »

More money in a trade than any degree.

Hyperbole much?

Sam Quentin

Sam Quentin wrote: »

That's just blôody marvelous,send them all off to college.
Shir who would want a trade earning great money!?

It's not all black and white with trades and great money either.
I know plenty fitters in their 40s who are encouraging their kids to do anything but a mech fitter trade as they are feeling the effects of 2 or 3 decades hard graft on their joints etc and even when things are good the money isn't all that great for the flat 40 hours.

Roger Hassenforder

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'm studying for my third degree.

I'm unemployed.

Out of curiosity, what were they?
Are the prospects that bad, did you know they'd be bad?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Well this thread is an absolute ray of sunshine. Our highly educated work force is a major reason why multinationals locate here. I work in the tech field and in general the level of graduate coming out of all Irish universities is pretty good. Of course they are a bit green coming in on the first day, but I find in general they learn quickly and contribute well to the work.

I wish people would stop being so ridiculously negative about all things third level related. We can't all do third level, but equally we can't all do trades either. You'd swear the way this place goes on sometimes that college education is somehow a bad thing.

AlmightyCushion

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Agreed as a general point, but not everyone is suited to higher education and not everyone with higher education is a good fit for a given role.

We shouldn't abandon the first group, and try to ensure that the qualifications of the second group are matched with the right attitude and cop on too.

I know people who did the Microsoft exams years ago purely by studying the questions. They'd freely admit they don't actually know much about what they studied, but they have the piece of paper. Contrast that to a guy/girl who's spent 6/7 years working hands-on with the technology but doesn't have the exam.. which is the better hire?

I could be wrong but usually a Microsoft certification isn't enough to get a job. Usually you'd need to have at least a degree as well, so memorizing a load of answers for a Microsoft certificate on it's own won't get you a job. Plus, those certs expire after 2 years and you have to do them again to retain it.

I actually think IT (especially development) is easier to get into without a degree than most industries. If you're decent and work on some projects in your spare time it shows that you can code and you have a portfolio you can show to potential employers. It might be difficult getting past recruiters or HR though so not having a degree will limit your options.

Ficheall

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

We can't all do third level

Everyone is doing third-level though. You pay your money and you get your piece of paper, as a rite of passage. Good for unis, not great for companies who, instead of getting someone with four years' experience, get someone with a degree of indeterminable merit.

kneemos

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Well this thread is an absolute ray of sunshine. Our highly educated work force is a major reason why multinationals locate here. I work in the tech field and in general the level of graduate coming out of all Irish universities is pretty good. Of course they are a bit green coming in on the first day, but I find in general they learn quickly and contribute well to the work.

I wish people would stop being so ridiculously negative about all things third level related. We can't all do third level, but equally we can't all do trades either. You'd swear the way this place goes on sometimes that college education is somehow a bad thing.

There's been too much emphasis on third level for many years.
Trades should be given equal status and not expect every second level student to pick from a list of courses they have enough points for.

Mr. Incognito

I think it has a lot to do with free third level education coming in in the 90s.

I certainly would not have been able to afford college and I have 2 degrees and 2 professional qualifications.

I think its a good thing and co-incided with the decline of the Catholic Church and the rise of social justice.

I only with that the fees by the back door called the administration charges were done away with.

raze_them_all_

Left a programming degree to do a different job. Money is way better in my first year than would of been in year 5 of prigramming

jmayo

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Nothing wrong with having a highly educated population. Lifts us all out of the darkness.

Except they are not highly educated anymore.
There isn't the questioning in higher education that there once was.
Now too many students are on a thread mill to getting a degree and then most likely a masters, just to get a job.

And just look at the social crapology coming out of universities in other countries.
And it is starting here as well.

As someone else said earlier in thread.
Quantity does not equal Quality.

Subcomandante Marcos

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Hyperbole much?

I'd love to know what trade is earning more that hospital consultants, financial services executives, economists, programmers and sales people for Google etc.

suicide_circus

I helped a friend by writing an assignment for her business degree a few years back. It was a subject I knew little to nothing about. My effort was total and complete waffle from beginning to end with very little research. It got 80%.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'd love to know what trade is earning more that hospital consultants, financial services executives, economists, programmers and sales people for Google etc.

Agreed. With comparable bonus, share scheme, pension and health care. Starting off trades certainly make more post qualification but over a career the office drone will probably do better if they are even semi competent

setanta1000

Ficheall wrote: »

Everyone is doing third-level though. You pay your money and you get your piece of paper, as a rite of passage. Good for unis, not great for companies who, instead of getting someone with four years' experience, get someone with a degree of indeterminable merit.

Everyone who leaves school in Ireland is not doing a third level degree - 43,000 out of 55,000 students do an undergrad course - that is not 100% or indeed "everyone".

Don't know what you mean by indeterminable merit - do you mean you cannot determine the quality of the degree? If so there are a number of ranking resources available that show where Irish universities rank amongst the world's 28,000 3rd level institutions allowing you to determine the relative quality of these. The top ten universities in Ireland are all in the top 10% of global institutions. (Source: http://www.webometrics.info/en/Europe/Ireland%20)

kneemos

kneemos wrote: »

..............
Trades should be given equal status ..........

The status is level 6 on the NFQ, you reckon it should be higher?

Laois_Man

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Well this thread is an absolute ray of sunshine. Our highly educated work force is a major reason why multinationals locate here. I work in the tech field and in general the level of graduate coming out of all Irish universities is pretty good. Of course they are a bit green coming in on the first day, but I find in general they learn quickly and contribute well to the work.

I wish people would stop being so ridiculously negative about all things third level related. We can't all do third level, but equally we can't all do trades either. You'd swear the way this place goes on sometimes that college education is somehow a bad thing.

Spot on - We're very quick in Ireland to talk our own down.

I have a friend in England. He spent about 8 years living here but he's back in England now. He got 3rd level qualifications in Ireland, not even in a college that would be particularly highly regarded here, and he can walk into any job over there ahead of anyone with the equivalent qualifications in the UK system. We're actually both doing a masters now and he's always gloating about how much easier his is than mine and how the Irish education system is **** because it demands far too much of its students. I think the irony has gotten lost on him somehow!

kneemos

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'd love to know what trade is earning more that hospital consultants, financial services executives, economists, programmers and sales people for Google etc.

From a previous thread.



My best mate is a plumber, I did his books for him in 2017 and he put 125k through them, you can be sure there was at least another 50k not going through them.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the most extraordinary achievements of fee-paying schools in Ireland is convincing people they don't exist.

What's the evidence that we don't have a two-tier education system?

I'm not sure what background has to do with stopping people going on to third level education in the UK or the US either.

kneemos

Augeo wrote: »

The status is level 6 on the NFQ, you reckon it should be higher?

Nothing to do with NFQ. it's the expectation of second level students to do third level.

Subcomandante Marcos

kneemos wrote: »

From a previous thread.



My best mate is a plumber, I did his books for him in 2017 and he put 125k through them, you can be sure there was at least another 50k not going through them.

I can assure you your friend is the exception, not the rule.

How long is your friend in his field?
How much do you think an economist at say Deloitte makes after 5 years? 10 years?
How much do you think someone at Google for 5 years makes in positions like porgramming or sales or human resources?
What about a hospital consultant who also has a private practice?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

kneemos wrote: »

From a previous thread.



My best mate is a plumber, I did his books for him in 2017 and he put 125k through them, you can be sure there was at least another 50k not going through them.

Assuming he works a standard 220 day year and even every single Saturday of the year that's 270 days a year. Making 175 k a year means 650 quid a day every single day of the year. If he's working 10 hours a day with no lunch he's still charging 65 quid an hour, and that assumes absolutely zero transit time between jobs. Not sure I fully buy that one.

Subcomandante Marcos

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Assuming he works a standard 220 day year and even every single Saturday of the year that's 270 days a year. Making 175 k a year means 650 quid a day every single day of the year. If he's working 10 hours a day with no lunch he's still charging 65 quid an hour, and that assumes absolutely zero transit time between jobs. Not sure I fully buy that one.

His friend is self employed and probably has a few lads working under him, so you can subtract their pay from those figures.

DEFTLEFTHAND

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Assuming he works a standard 220 day year and even every single Saturday of the year that's 270 days a year. Making 175 k a year means 650 quid a day every single day of the year. If he's working 10 hours a day with no lunch he's still charging 65 quid an hour, and that assumes absolutely zero transit time between jobs. Not sure I fully buy that one.

He's probably running a small plumbing firm.

I doubt he's a sole trader.

LirW

I did books for a small trades company too for a few years, they'd have a similar turnaround as said plumber friend but after paying his subs, taxes and usual work-related costs he'd net a third of that. Wasn't in Ireland though.

Ficheall

setanta1000 wrote: »

Don't know what you mean by indeterminable merit - do you mean you cannot determine the quality of the degree?

I mean it's exceedingly difficult to fail a degree here.

Mrs OBumble

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Nothing wrong with having a highly educated population. Lifts us all out of the darkness.

One in six cannot read though.

LirW

Plenty of degrees are more of a perseverance exercise than useful training that leave you with high skills.
There's a whole range of degrees from really easy as long as you show up and do a bare minimum to the ones where you fail if you're not full-time committed or have a good logical understanding of the matter.
A graduate isn't automatically an intelligent and free-thinking individual.

I don't wanna take away from anyone's academic achievements here, I'm merely pointing out that there's a huge difference between degrees and fields in difficulty to succeed in the course.

setanta1000

Ficheall wrote: »

I mean it's exceedingly difficult to fail a degree here.

And yet an average of 13% of 1st year third level students drop out of third level degree courses - so is that higher or lower than you think it should be?

kneemos

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Assuming he works a standard 220 day year and even every single Saturday of the year that's 270 days a year. Making 175 k a year means 650 quid a day every single day of the year. If he's working 10 hours a day with no lunch he's still charging 65 quid an hour, and that assumes absolutely zero transit time between jobs. Not sure I fully buy that one.

The call out charge is 65 quid or more, that's before he even gets there.

Paddy Cow

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I seem to recall reports in recent times questioning the difficulty level of recent exams and courses alright. By all accounts even the Leaving is easier than it used to be.

There's also something to be said about everyone having degrees and masters not only driving down wages through oversupply, but also cutting out those who don't have one, even though their ability and experience may be much stronger.

As someone who manages an IT department and occasionally hires, I'm far more interested in someone's experience and attitude than just what paperwork they have. Cop on, ambition and someone who "gets" the needs of the role is far more important to me.

They took integration off the higher maths syllabus a few years ago, which is crazy if people want to go into engineering. It's like teaching addition but not subtraction.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the most extraordinary achievements of fee-paying schools in Ireland is convincing people they don't exist.

What's the evidence that we don't have a two-tier education system?

6% of school are fee paying in Ireland its tiny whole Swades of the country have no fee-paying schools, yet you get the tired old stereotypes trotted out all the time.

James Brown

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'm studying for my third degree.

I'm unemployed.

Go college education.

Have you ever worked, do you intend on being an 'academic'? Just curious. Anytime I was out of work for a long period I'd take a course to try broaden the CV, but it was always with the view of getting a job.
Decent pop group, but why 3 degrees? Would going further on in one area not make more sense? Degrees are the broad basis in an area.
Also doesn't the state only assist with the first?

The other point about doing a trade is finding an apprenticeship it's not as simple as filling in the CAO form and its still one area where contacts go a long way there is a big commitment in taking on an apprentice.

James Brown

Aegir wrote: »

I'm not sure what background has to do with stopping people going on to third level education in the UK or the US either.

Socio-economics. I know people were third level was the common thing to do. I know others were nobody attended third level but got a job at 16 if there was one. Some secondaries hardly bother with talk of third level.
For some it's get working as soon as you can, for others it's do a degree then take a year off travelling. I always said I couldn't afford to be a hippy or new age traveler or what ever, these people are usually from wealthy families or sponging off family and friends. If I had went off for a year I'd have had no home to return to. Different worlds.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Socio-economics. I know people were third level was the common thing to do. I know others were nobody attended third level but got a job at 16 if there was one. Some secondaries hardly bother with talk of third level.
For some it's get working as soon as you can, for others it's do a degree then take a year off travelling. I always said I couldn't afford to be a hippy or new age traveler or what ever, these people are usually from wealthy families or sponging off family and friends. If I had went off for a year I'd have had no home to return to. Different worlds.

I don’t see how Ireland is any better or worse then elsewhere in that regard.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Socio-economics. I know people were third level was the common thing to do. I know others were nobody attended third level but got a job at 16 if there was one. Some secondaries hardly bother with talk of third level.
For some it's get working as soon as you can, for others it's do a degree then take a year off travelling. I always said I couldn't afford to be a hippy or new age traveler or what ever, these people are usually from wealthy families or sponging off family and friends. If I had went off for a year I'd have had no home to return to. Different worlds.

Almost complete nonsense lots of people travel self-funded all school promoted third level, there are lots of schemes to support those for a low-income house to attend college including an enhanced grant. how do people still believer tired old stereotypes like that, the 1980s was 30 years ago.

James Brown

Aegir wrote: »

I don’t see how Ireland is any better or worse then elsewhere in that regard.

You said

I'm not sure what background has to do with stopping people going on to third level

And does it matter? It exists as an issue. Suggesting it's no different elsewhere doesn't address it or stop it happening, it's not homelessness, (see FG/Leo).

mariaalice wrote: »

Almost complete nonsense lots of people travel self-funded all school promoted third level, there are lots of schemes to support those for a low-income house to attend college including an enhanced grant. how do people still believer tired old stereotypes like that, the 1980s was 30 years ago.

You've almost no clue. Money and time are required. Yes there are grants but can your family do without any income you might provide for 3 or 4 years, if a family are struggling? What if virtually nobody from your school attends 3rd level do you think you'd be encouraged, helped towards applying?
'All schools' certainly do not push pupils onto 3rd level. They know the realities of their students.
What's your explanation? People from poorer backgrounds don't want a career or the prospect of a decent income because?