Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Jimmy Garlic

seamus wrote: »

Ireland is acting 100% constitutionally in calling for all legal and peaceful means to be exhausted in resolving this issue.

As the elections are disputed, the most appropriate course of action is to call for Venezuelan law to be followed until a new election can be held.

You would want to be very naive to believe that the US led push to have Maduro removed has anything to do with promoting freedom and democracy in Venezuela. Nothing of the kind. They literally couldn't care less who runs a country as long as he/she toes their line. The US supported Pol Pot after all.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You see the full list of US sanctions imposed on the economy

Targeted sanctions yes .

Not blanket sanctions on the whole country

breatheme

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You would want to be very naive to believe that the US led push to have Maduro removed has anything to do with promoting freedom and democracy in Venezuela. Nothing of the kind. They literally couldn't care less who runs a country as long as he/she toes their line. The US supported Pol Pot after all.

In my opinion, this whole intervention is 20 years too late. So it's about time. You say it's naïve to believe that this about promoting freedom and democracy, I say it is cynical to believe that it is ONLY about oil.

The US is not invading Venezuela, they are recognising an INTERIM president, per the country's constitution. There is no coup d'état in Venezuela.

James Brown

touts wrote: »

Well constitutionally there were supposed to hold free and fair elections and Maduro didn't do that. Like most socialist governments when the people realise they were sold a con job and there really isn't "someone else" who will pay for it all then the socialists turned to violence and intimidation to hold onto power.

The Irish government is 100% correct and I would say morally required to stand up for democracy. If the likes of Maduro can get away with it then that will only embolden Irish socialists to try a similar con job on the Irish people.

A socialist cannot be a dictator and vice versa. Dictators can call themselves what they like of course.
There should be a push for fair elections. I'd be wary of any Trump backed appointee regardless of any apparent popularity. Anyone who thinks the US are only in it for the Venezuelan on the street is beyond naive.
I don't believe Ireland is neutral.

Jimmy Garlic

breatheme wrote: »

In my opinion, this whole intervention is 20 years too late. So it's about time. You say it's naïve to believe that this about promoting freedom and democracy, I say it is cynical to believe that it is ONLY about oil.

The US is not invading Venezuela, they are recognising an INTERIM president, per the country's constitution. There is no coup d'état in Venezuela.

It has threatened to invade if it doesn't get its way.

Jimmy Garlic

Maduro is the president of Venezuela despite the likes of G W Bush's old sidekick John Bolton (trumps national security advisor) saying it ain't so.

igCorcaigh

Both sides of this debate are right.

Gatling

Vladi has been awfully quite about this supposed forced illegal coup .
Other than sending a bomber and an empty civilian airliner (flew in empty ,what did it fly out with)
It actually has shades of Ukraine about it

Spannerplank

Thargor wrote: »

Wtf are you rambling on about?

She's "rumoured" to be worth 4 billion. How come this information is only coming out now ? Why wasn't this rumour circulated years ago?
Did she only become megarich recently?

Eric Cartman

Spannerplank wrote: »

She's "rumoured" to be worth 4 billion. How come this information is only coming out now ? Why wasn't this rumour circulated years ago?
Did she only become megarich recently?

can we go back to the proof of any of your wild accusations that Gatling asked for earlier, I just want to make sure we don't skip past any of this.

Spannerplank

Gatling wrote: »

Targeted sanctions yes .

Not blanket sanctions on the whole country

The sanctions affect the entire population.
If Venezuela can't trade its oil then it's source of income to purchase imports is gone.
It also makes it impossible to halt runaway inflation.

"Targeted sanctions" is as meaningless a term as "pinpoint accurate nuclear strike"

quokula

I'm unsure about this. Time and again America and Britain have decided it's time for regime change in some oil rich country for the good of its citizens, time and again those who disagreed were called out as supporting an evil dictatorship, and time and again the justification has proven to be completely fabricated and the situation has ended up much worse. And USA's record for meddling in Latin America in particular is shameful.

Then you see news reports about the protests against the government, with a mention that there were also protests in favour of the government, but no mention of numbers, and you're left wondering who actually has the popular support. I also find it weird that reporters stand in Caracas talking about how nobody can afford basic food, while the streets behind them are full of decent modern cars driving around. And one reporter I watched yesterday went up to a fruit and veg stall and picked up a potato, and said it cost 2 months' salary and therefore noone can buy it. Which made me wonder why somebody would engage in such a futile task as turning up and standing around all day with a stall full of them to sell? Commerce is clearly still happening, and it's hard to know how much of the economic problem is caused by oil prices, trade sanctions, asset freezes and foreign exchange speculators.

I also wonder why if things are so bad in Venezuela, why aren't they a major part of the US southern border immigration statistics like so many of their neighbours are? Why is nobody talking about regime change in those countries? So yeah, there's been enough lies from the British and American media and politicians in particular to make me skeptical that we've seen this kind of thing before, and I'm doubly skeptical when it's wannabe dictators like Trump and Bolsonaro leading the charge.

On the other hand Maduro's clearly cracked down on protesters in an unacceptable way. And as much as some rabid idiotic commentators have been keen to call out this as an example of what socialism does, they've ignored the fact that Guiado is actually from a socialist party and is opposing Maduro's behaviour specifically, not socialist policies in general, so he wouldn't necessarily become the puppet to Trump that people might expect. And, unlike previous attempts at regime change, there seems to be a far wider support base from this across other European countries along with other South American countries, so I can see why Ireland would back our allies in that way.

two wheels good

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Maduro is the president of Venezuela despite the likes of G W Bush's old sidekick John Bolton (trumps national security advisor) saying it ain't so.

As if John Bolton's involvement in any foreign policy matter weren't bad enough: Elliott Abrams is now back on White Staff

[.. "Elliott Abrams one of the premiere butchers of the U.S. dirty wars in Central America in the 1980s, has been named the point man in the effort to bring regime change to Venezuela." ]

"Elliott Abrams is a notorious neoconservative and was actually a so-called “Never Trumper” who penned op-eds opposing Donald Trump.
Well, clearly a good old fashioned coup d’etat mission was too juicy for Abrams to pass up."

... Elliott Abrams is an unrepentant war criminal. He played a central role in the mass-slaughter of tens of thousands of people across Central and Latin America in the dirty wars of the 1980s. He was a player in the Iran-Contra scandal. "

From a very interesting report on TheIntercept.com

Spannerplank

Eric Cartman wrote: »

can we go back to the proof of any of your wild accusations that Gatling asked for earlier, I just want to make sure we don't skip past any of this.

Did we ever get any proof of your rats and flamingos story?

Spannerplank

splinter65 wrote: »

So in other words, the socialist experiment in Venezuela is a total success, it’s all US propaganda and fake news, it’s just that everyone has been taken in by this nonsense, again.

Well you could always examine life under Calderon where thousands were tortured and shot in the streets and then compare how their lot improved after Chavez succeeded him, nationalised the oil industry and lifted millions out of poverty, increased the national literacy rate by 100% and improved life expectancy by several years.
Not bad in 10 years

Eric Cartman

Spannerplank wrote: »

Did we ever get any proof of your rats and flamingos story?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article131778819.html

https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/qknpkx/has-the-food-shortage-in-venezuela-really-led-people-to-eat-flamingos-and-anteaters

http://www.reportero24.com/2017/02/11/anarquia-venezolanos-hambrientos-matan-flamencos-por-comida/

[IMG]https://i0.wp.com/www.reportero24.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ANARQUÍA-Venezolanos-hambrientos-matan-flamencos-por-comida.png?zoom=2&resize=582,387[/IMG]

go on now, your proof ?

Spannerplank

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Chavez was starving people too. Its the natural cycle of any socialist dictatorship, they get greedy, hoard resources, the people become more dependant on the government......starvation.
Maduro just made a problem worse, like a lot worse. North korea 'starves' its people, but not 1/3rd of them eating less than 1 meal a day on average starve.

If Chavez was starving his people then why did he crack down on supermarkets that he determined were overcharging? Hardly the actions of a man who couldn't care less about Joe Public.

Eric Cartman

Spannerplank wrote: »

If Chavez was starving his people then why did he crack down on supermarkets that he determined were overcharging? Hardly the actions of a man who couldn't care less about Joe Public.

He subsidised the price of many goods but after the oil price collapsed that was no longer affordable so shortages took hold and he banned black market outlets and restricted access to imports and the access to dollars.

can we get back to you providing proof of your claims before you go any further though.

Manic Moran

Time to stop the pretence and put an end to this myth about Irish neutrality that a lot of people still buy into.

Some of us have been saying this for years. Ireland is not, and has never been, a neutral country as a matter of persistent policy. It is, in effect, non-aligned, which means that it doesn't consider itself to be a permanent part of any particular alliance, and instead picks its positions on any particular matter on a case-by-case basis. Since Ireland picked 'neutral' in WW2, and tries not to get involved in anything without the UN first approving it, people think that Ireland is actually neutral as a state of being, but this is false. If it thinks something is correct and a side should be picked, it is perfectly entitled to do so.

Gatling

Spannerplank wrote: »

Chavez succeeded him, nationalised the oil industry and lifted millions out of poverty, increased the national literacy rate by 100% and improved life expectancy by several years.
Not bad in 10 years

But the current situation proves you wrong.



So the uniform claims you have made multiple times on here can you link to anything or evidence thats actually true

Thargor

Spannerplank wrote: »

If Chavez was starving his people then why did he crack down on supermarkets that he determined were overcharging? Hardly the actions of a man who couldn't care less about Joe Public.

He cracked down on supermarkets because he was a corrupt populist economic illiterate. Do you think the supermarkets were suddenly bursting with cheap food after his "crackdown"? Or did inflation just shoot up a few 1000% more with widespread hoarding and malnourishment? You really dont have the slightest clue about anything do you?

Gatling

Manic Moran wrote: »

Some of us have been saying this for years. Ireland is not, and has never been, a neutral country as a matter of persistent policy. It is, in effect, non-aligned, which means that it doesn't consider itself to be a permanent part of any particular alliance, and instead picks its positions on any particular matter on a case-by-case basis. Since Ireland picked 'neutral' in WW2, and tries not to get involved in anything without the UN first approving it, people think that Ireland is actually neutral as a state of being, but this is false. If it thinks something is correct and a side should be picked, it is perfectly entitled to do so.

But we are happy to take part in the NATO partnership for peace,

but we're neutral said the man

Spannerplank

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article131778819.html

https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/qknpkx/has-the-food-shortage-in-venezuela-really-led-people-to-eat-flamingos-and-anteaters

http://www.reportero24.com/2017/02/11/anarquia-venezolanos-hambrientos-matan-flamencos-por-comida/

[IMG]https://i0.wp.com/www.reportero24.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ANARQUÍA-Venezolanos-hambrientos-matan-flamencos-por-comida.png?zoom=2&resize=582,387[/IMG]

go on now, your proof ?

Thank you.

Ok, the Herald article looks pretty convincing so I'll accept that people have been killing and eating wild animals for food. I still harbour serious doubts about rats.

But, and it's a very big but, what is the level of starvation? So far there have been no reports of deaths by starvation. So how bad is the problem?

I'm not denying that their is a crisis in Venezuela but the food shortages are not maduros doing. Sanctions and oligarchs who control certain segments of the food industry have strangled supplies in order to cripple the economy, foment unrest and grease the skids for a hostile coup that will facilitate the privatisation of Venezuela 's oil into American hands.

But it's also a play to prevent Venezuela from trading oil in any currency other than the petrodollar. The same thing was done to Iraq and Libya and attempts to do it to Iran have been in the offing since 2002.

Maintain dollar dominance over oil supplies is the ultimate goal and Venezuelans or a few flamingos be damned.

Spannerplank

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

LAst year I had a Venezuelan colleague visit our office in Ireland from our HQ in Europe.

He told us all about it over lunch, I dont remember all the details but the country is a mess, he blamed the government and he had no intention of returning home.

If he comes back I'll get him on here to debate Spannerplank and spanners can tell him how he's wrong.

As I mentioned previously, I never once stated that their wasn't a crisis in Venezuela. Does your colleague state that maduro is deliberately starving the people of Venezuela? While 80% of the population say otherwise?

Spannerplank

Thargor wrote: »

He cracked down on supermarkets because he was a corrupt populist economic illiterate. Do you think the supermarkets were suddenly bursting with cheap food after his "crackdown"? Or did inflation just shoot up a few 1000% more with widespread hoarding and malnourishment? You really dont have the slightest clue about anything do you?

Tell me what causes inflation?
And now tell me what causes food shortages?

Now tell me how and why the government would throttle the supply of food.

Thargor

Spannerplank wrote: »

Tell me what causes inflation?
And now tell me what causes food shortages?

Now tell me how and why the government would throttle the supply of food.

You want me to do your homework for you? Are you going to start repeatedly denying theres inflation or empty supermarket shelves now until someone makes an ass out of you again like with the flamingo story?

Eric Cartman

Spannerplank wrote: »

Tell me what causes inflation?
And now tell me what causes food shortages?

Now tell me how and why the government would throttle the supply of food.

oil price high : government spends x subsidising staple foods to try feed its people, works but in standard fashion means farmers have more money , government subsidised inflation happens, other foods increase in price, shop keepers bolting on profit to subsidised food, government spends money on crackdown.

oil price low : government can no longer fund subsidised food , market responds by importing food to sell, government siezes dollars and bans this and arrests people, farmers no longer being paid to produce are out of work and cant afford inflated food price, food scarcity starts, prices rise, worth bigger risks to try sell food, government clamps down harder.

government tries fix whole thing by thinking if they can trade oil not in dollars that it will fix everything, US government makes threats and sanctions as it never wants to find itself upside down on an oil import owed after a bad day at the forex desk,

meanwhile venezuela government still not allowing food imports or currency exchange, now with everyone starving they put on their hailo's and walk round the slums handing out CLAP bags and holding rallies with free food, all made in venezuela and printed with anti capitalist propoganda. Its being the villain and the saint at the same time.

touts

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A socialist cannot be a dictator and vice versa. Dictators can call themselves what they like of course.
There should be a push for fair elections. I'd be wary of any Trump backed appointee regardless of any apparent popularity. Anyone who thinks the US are only in it for the Venezuelan on the street is beyond naive.
I don't believe Ireland is neutral.

Lenin
Stalin
Mao
Castro x2
Kim X3
Ceausescu
Chavez

All socialists. All Dictators. All people you should be very "wary" of living under I don't believe Ireland should be neutral in the fight against socialism.

Spannerplank

Thargor wrote: »

He cracked down on supermarkets because he was a corrupt populist economic illiterate. Do you think the supermarkets were suddenly bursting with cheap food after his "crackdown"? Or did inflation just shoot up a few 1000% more with widespread hoarding and malnourishment? You really dont have the slightest clue about anything do you?

When were those pictures taken? Before and after?

And what does a populist mean?

Thargor

Spannerplank wrote: »

When were those pictures taken? Before and after?

And what does a populist mean?

Do you think if you just keep asking enough stupid questions people will give up and you'll be able to have the thread to yourself or something?