Man, 65, convicted of purchasing sex in landmark prostitution case

McMurphy

Backward step here for the state imo.

If someone wishes to go out and pay for sexual gratification, they should be allowed to do so, assuming it is consensual by two adults of legal age, and sound mind.

Naming him was especially bad form, and I suspect the real punishment rather than some token fine.

Also, as it takes two to tango, assuming this whole thing wasn't a setup, as in some honey trap style snare, how come the other party (assuming it was a female) not named too?

I thought after the abortion and same sex marriage referendums we were advancing as a nation, but this case just proves otherwise.

Don't indulge in it myself, but people should be legally entitled to do so if they wish.

Feel sorry for the man tbh.

Muckka

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yea I too believe it is a minority - and the majority of people expressing that position are doing it as satire. Perhaps it is just emotional bias but I can nto believe the majority of people are in romantic sexual relationships and see everything that have to do in that relationship purely as a currency for getting sex.

Nor can I believe that most men would even want to have sexual relations with their partner if they believe their partner is only having sex as a means to a currency.

If I thought my partners were only having sex with me as a currency and not because they actually wanted to be having sex with me - I not only would not want to have sex with them - I would not even want to be in this relationship with them at all.

Relationships are about compromise, honesty fairness and integrity is paramount to a healthy relationship.
A lot of people get married due to the wrong ideas.

The people who seem to stay longer together are usually flying the same direction, a bird can't fly with one wing.

A man needs to man up too sometimes, my friend from New Zealand was one of the best father's I ever knew, when he'd go out fishing in the evening, he'd bring his little daughter on his back in a kind of safe backpack thing.
He started bringing her out at a young age, say 9 month's, he was physically quite strong.
On with the waders off up the river.

The kid loved it and now is a keen dry fishergirl.

Muckka

Muckka wrote: »

A man needs to man up too sometimes, my friend from New Zealand was one of the best father's I ever knew, when he'd go out fishing in the evening, he'd bring his little daughter on his back in a kind of safe backpack thing.

Hehehe only on After Hours can you go from sex trafficking to Fatherhood ideals in the space of two posts

But to big up myself slightly you are describing me there too. I do-did exactly that stuff with my kids. Taking my daughter fishing, hunting, training to use rifles and stuff, basic field survival training, some self defence and so forth - all before she turned 8.

I do not see it as a "man" or "man up" thing though myself. I just see it as being an engaged parent of any gender or orientation - and her mother/mothers do much of the same stuff too.

Johnny Dogs

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

..........

Also, as it takes two to tango, assuming this whole thing wasn't a setup, as in some honey trap style snare, how come the other party (assuming it was a female) not named too? ..............

I'd assume it was a setup tbh.

AndrewJRenko

paleoperson wrote: »

What makes it doubly ridiculous to name him is that there are thousands of such acts going on in the country every day, it's by pure chance that he got caught.

It's no different to how the Courts work for other offences. A tiny proportion of those who are drink-driving are caught and named.

That doesn't mean that there is a grand conspiracy against drink drivers.

Dravokivich

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Backward step here for the state imo.

If someone wishes to go out and pay for sexual gratification, they should be allowed to do so, assuming it is consensual by two adults of legal age, and sound mind.

Naming him was especially bad form, and I suspect the real punishment rather than some token fine.

Also, as it takes two to tango, assuming this whole thing wasn't a setup, as in some honey trap style snare, how come the other party (assuming it was a female) not named too?

I thought after the abortion and same sex marriage referendums we were advancing as a nation, but this case just proves otherwise.

Don't indulge in it myself, but people should be legally entitled to do so if they wish.

Feel sorry for the man tbh.

The intention is not to criminalise the sex worker as people who lobby for these laws against the purchaser believe every sex worker is a victim. Regardless of whether or not the sex worker believes that's the case.

whisky_galore

Augeo wrote: »

I'd assume it was a setup tbh.

It does smell of set up.
The motive for bringing someone to book to make an example of is strong. It's not like they're hauling them in every day.

jimmycrackcorm

Renegade Mechanic wrote:

Still cheaper than marrying someone for it

And at least guaranteed to get it

McMurphy

Dravokivich wrote: »

The intention is not to criminalise the sex worker as people who lobby for these laws against the purchaser believe every sex worker is a victim. Regardless of whether or not the sex worker believes that's the case.

Sounds like an excellent reason for legalising it, and regulating it.

Dravokivich

whisky_galore wrote: »

It does smell of set up.
The motive for bringing someone to book to make an example of is strong. It's not like they're hauling them in every day.

I'd expect it's more likely there were complaints to Gardaí from residents. All they'd need to do then is sit and watch for a while. In the height of a housing crisis, do you think the Gardaí are going to rent somewhere, in a place that's high sought after and do something like that to catch out one person?

goat2

Sex worker making money tax free, Trafficking of young females from poor countries to work in brothels, and this industry not scrutinised are some of my reasons for it being wrong,
On the other hand if it were legal, monitored, and taxed on earnings, along with health and safety of all, consenting adults, a different story

whisky_galore

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'd expect it's more likely there were complaints to Gardaí from residents. All they'd need to do then is sit and watch for a while. In the height of a housing crisis, do you think the Gardaí are going to rent somewhere, in a place that's high sought after and do something like that to catch out one person?

Have someone dressed up wandering the streets, put up a fake call girl profile, done without renting anything.

BeerWolf

The fool doesn't know of Tinder...!

Hector Savage

I suppose this is the one time the right wing Ruhama and far left man hating feminist loons can be delighted together ..

sbsquarepants

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s completely the fault of the adult who knows that what they are doing is illegal, yet they choose to do it anyway.

There have been legitimate reasons given in the article you quoted. The fact that you don’t agree they are legitimate reasons is another matter entirely. You should challenge the law if you want to have any hope of changing it, rather than engaging in illegal activity in the hope you won’t fall foul of existing laws.

I'm with TaxACruel - I couldn't find any of these reasons you're on about either.

Just because you don't like something is not a valid reason for it to be illegal. I don't like cheese - I don't want to see it
outlawed (Well, I do actually, but I can't see it happening, it would be quite the imposition on others!)

biko wrote: »

I'm all for clamping down on buying sex
The "happy hooker" doesn't exist. These women are trafficked here, not uncommly by their own countrymen, and forced to sell themselves.

Why is it always hookers?

Why does no one traffic plumbers, mechanics or electricians for example.

Half the worlds population comes equipped with a vagina, it's not like they are some ultra scarce commodity.

RustyNut wrote: »

Who exactly is the victim in this consentual arrangement between two adults?

Revenue

......and god, he's the fúcker this is really about.

I can't believe there are actually people out there who believe that Ruhama give a flying fúck about womens rights!

Candie wrote: »

The reasoning behind not criminalizing the prostitute is because if a sex worker is assaulted or raped, beaten up or otherwise attacked, she will not report the crime if she fears prosecution herself/himself. .

Do you think regulation could help?

Candie wrote: »

Prostitutes may also be victims of trafficking or coercion, and again there are bigger fish to fry in that scenario than prosecuting the worker..

Again, why is it always hookers - there's money to be made off all kinds of labour? I'm not denying it happens, but why does it happen?

If there was a willing, legal, regulated supply of workers such as there is of plumbers, carpenters and so on the "need" to coerce would be removed by virtue of being rendered economically unviable. Nobody is forced by Russian gangsters to remove a bath and fit a shower!

Some people will ALWAYS be willing to sell sex, some others will ALWAYS be willing to buy it. It was ever thus, and ever will be.

Candie wrote: »

The fact that this is the first time someone has been convicted of the crime tells me that not a lot of resources are put into catching the customers. It's not quite persecution level just yet..

True

Candie wrote: »

I don't believe prostitution should be illegal, but I do think there will always be an issue with the most vulnerable sex workers. The girls who'll work in legit brothels (should it become legal) will be safe and cared for, but the most vulnerable - the drug addicts working the back streets and canal ways, under the control of pimps or with no protection at all - will still be at enormous risk of harm. Not all prostitutes are comfortably off escorts who get to pick and choose their customers and conditions, but the people in the worst situations will benefit least..

And what do you think the punters would rather go for - some safe warm pleasure dome style facility in town, filled with exotic beauties waiting to fulfil your every fantasy (for a small fee of course;)) or a quick knee trembler with some 6 toothed brass monkey under a canal bridge?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But yeah, those feminist nuns.

Feminists?

Hardly!

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm with TaxACruel

Thanks for that. Very kind which just makes it harder for me to say that -

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't like cheese

- I must now disown you - yours - and all you stand for in this world

Dravokivich

whisky_galore wrote: »

Have someone dressed up wandering the streets, put up a fake call girl profile, done without renting anything.

Walking the streets, in a secured car park?

whisky_galore

Dravokivich wrote: »

Walking the streets, in a secured car park?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-26799519.html

Gardai have done this before.

professore

Mrsmum wrote: »

Reading this thread, I think there might well be such a thing as toxic masculinity after all, just going by how men are describing their own relationships. It seems where women think they are in a loving partnership, men apparently are just paying for sex. You would swear women bring nothing to relationships beyond sex. Most households now are running on two incomes and even regarding presents I very much doubt men are not getting Christmas and birthday presents same as women are. But no, lest pretend otherwise so men can feel the big man. Thank God, like in the ad the creeps are in the minority. One would pity their partners.

Hey this is just the feminist view of the world - i.e. all relationships are about power, with an oppressor and victim. Some of us have a better view on things - but there are many who think like this. I'm not one of them.

Dravokivich

whisky_galore wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-26799519.html

Gardai have done this before.

The article is referring to an apartment block.

whisky_galore

Dravokivich wrote: »

The article is referring to an apartment block.

Whatever. They have previous form setting things up.

Muckka

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hehehe only on After Hours can you go from sex trafficking to Fatherhood ideals in the space of two posts

But to big up myself slightly you are describing me there too. I do-did exactly that stuff with my kids. Taking my daughter fishing, hunting, training to use rifles and stuff, basic field survival training, some self defence and so forth - all before she turned 8.

I do not see it as a "man" or "man up" thing though myself. I just see it as being an engaged parent of any gender or orientation - and her mother/mothers do much of the same stuff too.

Nothing more intimidating than watching a 16 year old girl arrive at the river and then proceed to flick a fly gracefully up stream, and whoosh a 4lbs seatrout...and you're fishing there all your Life, biggest was 2lbs.
Women are far superior than men at fluff chucking, they listen have that hunting instinct along with the gentle stroke..10 o'clock 2 o'clock.....

I hope you bought her orvis and sage flyrods for Christmas and zziplez and conoflex for the beach.

I always take conversations on a different direction lol

^ If you haven't read it the guy who used to play the Fonz (Henry Wrinkler) wrote a great book called "I never met an idiot on the river" which is about his views on life all mixed up with his love of fly fishing. Nice little book. It is not high up on my list of favourite things to do though but have dabbled. Have not been in awhile. Too many other things to do

biko

RustyNut wrote: »

Who exactly is the victim in this consentual arrangement between two adults?

It seems many men think it's most commonly consensual interactions.

Do you think foreign women travel to Ireland because they want to have sex with strangers for money?
Would you yourself have sex with strange men/women for money? Remember these customers most likely cannot get sex unless they pay for it, but you have to "put out".

biko

biko wrote: »

Do you think foreign women travel to Ireland because they want to have sex with strangers for money?

No more than all the polish people who moved en masse to Kilcock some 10-15 years ago - the next town over from me - wanted to carry boxes around a warehouse all day for minimum wage for Musgrave and Leaf Candy. I met and spoke to many of them. They absolutely did not want to be in Ireland and they absolutely did not want to be doing that work. They wanted to be _home_. Yet here they were.

I have a soft spot in my heart for people compelled to migrate. Either economic migrants or literal refugees. I also feel deeply for anyone in the sex trade who does not want to be in it and wants to get out. I hope we can support them more. I always loved the "mature student" approach to university in Ireland for example where over a certain age your uni fees go free. It is things _like_ that that will help us get people out of trades and industries they no longer want to be in.

biko wrote: »

Would you yourself have sex with strange men/women for money?

In the right environment I would have sex with women for money for sure. I would be surprised if a lot of guys did not say yes to that too. Maybe not the majority of them but a significantly close to majority figure I would suspect. But for me the question is incomplete. It is not that I would or would not have sex for money. It is that I would definitely do it - given the right environment in which to do so.

One thing I have thought of doing a few times but never got the finger out - is to create and host a consumer site similar to Escort Ireland. So rather than a site for the escorts to advertise themselves and their wares - the consumer advertises themselves and their desires and any details they want to share.

Who knows how many escorts would actually use such a site but I think it worthy of the attempt in that _done right_ anything that allows a sex worker to be more selective in choosing clients - is going to improve the environment of their work.

But yea environment is much more the key to the question than whether or not I would attempt to profit from sex myself.

biko wrote: »

Remember these customers most likely cannot get sex unless they pay for it, but you have to "put out".

I have heard that narrative a few times in the past but I wonder how true it is. I am not sure at all that the majority - or even a significant quantity - of men seeking sex from sex workers "cannot get sex unless they pay for it". To me that feels a bit like saying that people who go into McDonalds can not get a good meal elsewhere.

I do not think that is true. Many people can cook wonderfully for themselves and-or can afford good restaurant meals. But sometimes the quick convenience of McDonalds is just what people want. Similarly I suspect many men who could get sex - and perhaps many who actually _are_ getting sex - sometimes wish to opt for the Fast Food equivalent.

Of course that brings up moral conversations that are interesting such as whether a significant proportion or even the majority of the clientele are actually married or in relationships. Fair enough - a good conversation to have. But not one that justifies making the trade illegal or curtailed. Their infidelity is a personal issue they have to deal with. Not the sex worker, the law or the government.

Muckka

Getting back on track now, a lady I know is a sex addict and sought help for it.
So she joined a 12 step programme while living in London.

She didn't break any one's anynonimity, but told me she met some ladies who were so addicted to the buzz of sex they ended up as high class escorts.
These were well educated women who decided to feed their addiction and make a lot of money out of it.
They had gone so low that every trick they turned was filling their pockets and feeding the addiction.

Eventually they hit rock bottom, ended up in SLAA sex and love addict's anonymous.

Recovery is quite hard,as being an attractive looking woman and knowing that she could get sex anytime she needed it wasn't hard.

Before she went to on the game she'd pickup a random guy anywhere from an ATM machine to a walk in the park...
Ironically a lot of these guys were married, but they didn't care, it was even more of a buzz for her because these guys were "unavailable"

She's 8 year's in recovery now and her life's back on track, a lovely woman.

She's not had sex since, because she had enough of it, she went back to college and is now an addiction counceler.

As a man once said, it's hard sobering up from sex addiction, it's like a crack addict having a crack pipe constantly attached to yourself.....

Winty

gctest50 wrote: »

Ruhama are filth :




(The four religious orders than ran the Magdalene Laundries are the Good Shepherd Sisters, the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity, the Religious Sisters of Charity and the Sisters of Mercy.)

These are the orders all now refusing to contribute anything to the Magdalene Laundry survivors’ compensation fund set up by the Government.

Despite claiming to have no money to pay compensation, the Religious Sisters of Charity paid for the 2009 research report Globalisation, Sex Trafficking and Prostitution: The Experiences of Migrant Women in Ireland produced by the Immigrant Council of Ireland and TORL’s main evidence frequently described as “independent research” but clearly not. The Immigrant Council of Ireland was in fact founded by Sr. Stanislaus Kennedy of the Religious Sisters of Charity.

It has recently come to light that Atlantic Philanthropies have funded the Immigrant Council of Ireland to the tune of 5.9 million US dollars. In fact numerous members of TORL are funded by Atlantic Philanthropies. TORL organisations have received a whopping 40.7 million US dollars from Atlantic Philanthropies in total.

Ruhama was founded by the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters. These religious orders also remain the trustees of Ruhama today.

At least 18 different Magdalene order nuns are known to have worked at Ruhama over the year


no money for paying victims though

Thank You for a brilliant post
If anyone from RTE is here please make a documentary of the above

Winty

Winty wrote: »

Thank You for a brilliant post
If anyone from RTE is here please make a documentary of the above

Speaking of which the RTE did do a documentary on the law this thread is about - following a sex worker for the law and one against it. I missed it myself as I do not have a television and only watched it online when it got reviewed on boards by another user.

I am not sure if RTE were against the law or what but the woman they chose to support the law was - an awful human. When she finally got to talk to politicians for example - rather than discuss any data with them about laws like our one - she took the chance to shout at them about how every man going to a prostitute is just doing so to exercise his woman hating violent fantasies on her body.

When she organised a march to support women and sex workers she moved to ban men entirely from marching in it.

So basically she was not there to support the law - so much as to spread her hatred for men. By the end of the episode I felt the only thing she need was long long long therapy and help. She had clearly been hurt and emotionally scarred bad in her life. And she was not even remotely over it.

Whereas the woman against the law was a bubbly happy instantly likeable person who really had researched the arguments and data and was prepared to actually debate.

Maybe that was the only women they could find. Or maybe it was selected to feed a bias RTE had. But if I was for the law at the time I would have felt RTE screwed me bad. Thankfully I was not.

dotsman

anewme wrote: »

Interesting article here about the Amsterdam model and why it’s not working. It’s seen as a disaster nit the success everyone thinks.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/amsterdam-red-light-district-failing-prostitution-sex-work-decriminalisation-doesnt-work-holland-a8206511.html%3famp

That's not an article. That's an advertisement. The "author" is trying to plug her book. A book which promotes driving prostitution further underground.

Grayson

I wonder would this be a good topic for a citizens assembly. They can hear from different advocates and experts. They can look at all the different legislation around the world and see which aspects of it works.

then put their recommendations to the government.