Diesel engines - why did the Government encourage the Irish driving population

Cuttlefish

Simple Questions:

Why did the Green Party push the sale of diesel cars?

AND

Why did most of the Irish motoring population rush to buy diesel cars?


We hear now how bad they are to the environment and we hear the policy changes throughout Europe to discourage the sale of diesel car and we are expecting policy change here in the Republic too


But in 2008 or thereabouts owners of diesel cars were given tax breaks and incentives to purchase large engine diesel cars

Look on the second hand car pages and see how this has limited the options of second hand car buyers when 70% of cars on sale are diesel


I have never purchased a diesel car and never bought into the idea of it, My car is a 2005 Mazda 3 1.6 and for that I pay over €500 car tax while a larger engine/ seemingly lower emmission car will pay less than €200 - probably answering the question partly myself here with lower emissions


Just like to hear peoples opinions on the diesel car - yes I know electric car is the way to go but lets be honest it is well out of the reach of 80% of drivers


What do you all think?

Water John

Diesel have lower CO2 emissions TMK, that was the simplistic analysis. This doesn't take into account particle emissions which are the biggest problem with diesel, esp in urban areas.
Electric cars are becoming readily available. The VW Group have a big push in that direction. 2nd hand Nissan Leafs are available now.

Cuttlefish

Water John wrote: »

Diesel have lower CO2 emissions TMK, that was the simplistic analysis. This doesn't take into account particle emissions which are the biggest problem with diesel, esp in urban areas.
Electric cars are becoming readily available. The VW Group have a big push in that direction. 2nd hand Nissan Leafs are available now.

Still out of reach of most - electric leaf cars about €20k second hand

Patser

As John Water says above:

10 years ago the environmental buzz word was CO2, and diesel cars are much more efficient especially regarding the emission of CO2. Unfortunately diesels instead pump out a lot of other crap - frequently bunched together as particulates - and a 10 year old diesel with poor maintenance (especially regards Diesel Particulate Filter - DPF filter is often something that fails if car isnt looked after or driven too frequently on short hops) will pump out a lot more of that crap.

So 10 years ago it was seen as a solution to one problem, but now is the cause of another.

As for electric cars. If you think they're hard to get now, 10 years ago they were virtually non-existent. Green ministers posed beside G Whizzes back then as if they'd be a solution, but they were such terrible 'cars' (officially classed as heavy quadracycle and exempt from Ncap safety tests for instance) that they put terrible stereotypes into people's minds about electric cars.

But as the tax changes back then showed, the Irish people will jump onto cost savings, so massive swing to diesel ownership. So now the cost savings are being stripped from diesel and put onto the more and more available electric cars to encourage that switch again.

elperello

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Still out of reach of most - electric leaf cars about €20k second hand

https://cars.donedeal.ie/cars/Nissan/Leaf

They can be got for a lot less.
The cheaper ones however have less range.
Admittedly even 6-7k is too dear for many on a tight budget.

colm_mcm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Simple Questions:

Why did the Green Party push the sale of diesel cars?

AND

Why did most of the Irish motoring population rush to buy diesel cars?

A) they wanted to hit Co2 targets. Ironically they ignored everything else. It wasn’t unknown in 2008 that No2 etc was more prevelant in diesel, and that diesel had harmful emissions, and that diesel wasn’t suited to every scenario.
I sold new cars back then and it was well known.

You have to go back to 2007 and beyond to see that diesel cars always commanded a hefty price premium both new and used over petrol. Diesel was seen as much more robust, more economical, the downsides being the purchase price and the tax.
If you take something like an Avensis, a petrol 1.6 was approx €25k, the 1.8 was approx €29k and a diesel was €31k
All of a sudden, the diesel was €25k with €390 tax vs €700 before, the 1.6 petrol was also €25k but with €700 tax.

All of a sudden, the likes of an E Class diesel could be bought for the price of a C Class Petrol

Even take something like a Ford Focus, where the most common engine was the dreadful 80PS 1.4 petrol. With the chape tax you could get a 1.6 or 1.8 diesel which was way more economical and cheaper to tax for less money than the 1.4 cost.

Over time, the manufacturers have snuck the price of diesels back up, but for a while back in 08-10, diesels were genuinely cheap compared to what went before

demanufactured

Ah shure you can't hate the sound and smooth drive of a 1990 vw golf D.

Jude13

And it will happen again, there are great savings for EV's now (running costs and tax) however when the full impact of the mining of the battery components, the source or electricity to power them (carbon produced), and most importantly how to get rid of these massive batteries after 8+ years then the EV's will be hit too.

EdgeCase

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Because Irish people are cheap.

The policy was EU wide. The policy makers both in Ireland and at the EU were prioritising CO2 emission reductions and at the time the high efficiency diesels were looking like a good solution, particularly when those promoting the technology - big German and French car makers were claiming to have also solved the NOx and particulates emissions issues using complex filtration and so on (that needs high levels of maintenance which often doesn't happen once a car gets beyond 3).

The net result has been spikes in micro particulate emissions, especially in bigger inland cities like Paris, Brussels and so on.

Ireland's actually somewhat less impacted as our cities are small and usually windy but it's still not ideal.

I think it basically came down to a bunch of European car makers who didn't have hybrid and electric technologies ready to go a decade or more ago simply trying to shoehorn diesel into being far more eco friendly than it actually is.

They weren't going to hand the car market over to Toyota etc who were far more developed on petrol hybrids and so on.

Someone made a decision about environment Vs jobs.

The policies here were probably just informed by what were at the time the best reports available...

From our point of view, there was no reason or vested interest in diesel engines. We just implemented a policy that looked at CO2 in isolation

slave1

Jude13 wrote: »

And it will happen again, there are great savings for EV's now (running costs and tax) however when the full impact of the mining of the battery components, the source or electricity to power them (carbon produced), and most importantly how to get rid of these massive batteries after 8+ years then the EV's will be hit too.

LOL, quite a bit of ignorance there, only a fraction of a battery is lithium, there's no foreseeable shortage of minerals, have a look at night generated electricity in Ireland (when most EV's charge) to see the renewable content, EV car batteries will be in the car way longer than 8 years, lots are already reaching this age in 2019 and even when they are no longer practical for EV usage they will convert to home battery packs...

pablo128

Ironically European legislation is responsible for more harmful diesel emissions. In the push to make them cleaner, they produce more NOX now than before. The hotter a diesel engine runs, the more efficient it becomes, but produces more NOX.

bazz26

2008 just popped into this thread to say hello, welcome back!

Arthur Daley

EdgeCase wrote: »

Someone made a decision about environment Vs jobs.

At the same time, the EC and ECB were hovering as 2/3rds of the troika. Don't need a lot to join the dots and see how the FF/'green' government were going to play along to their masters tune.

V8 Interceptor

Patser wrote: »

But as the tax changes back then showed, the Irish people will jump onto cost savings, so massive swing to diesel ownership

Not just Irish people, any people. It happened in other Euro Countries too. And who could blame them? For most people a car is simply a mode of transport so naturally they'd purchase something that'll cost less to run.

That said, a lot of people who only tipped around the place unknowingly bought diesel despite it not being suited to such driving.

V8 Interceptor

colm_mcm wrote: »

You have to go back to 2007..... the 1.6 petrol was also €25k but with €700 tax.

You sure it wasn't closer to e500?

Cuttlefish

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

You sure it wasn't closer to e500?

1.6 Petrol tax wise €514 and was this price in 2013

naulpolan

The tax on the 1.6 petrol after 08 is €750 as far as I'm aware.
I'm looking to buy a cheap low km Avensis for a runaround, spending less than €5k
I have never had a diesel car but the cars that I'm looking at at the min, I think it would make sense for me to make the change.

Cuttlefish

naulpolan wrote: »

The tax on the 1.6 petrol after 08 is €750 as far as I'm aware.
I'm looking to buy a cheap low km Avensis for a runaround, spending less than €5k
I have never had a diesel car but the cars that I'm looking at at the min, I think it would make sense for me to make the change.

Am on the look out for a replacement car as I may have to if my Mazda 3 (2005) starts to give trouble but I am reluctant to look at a diesel car for fear of government policy changes that may come down harsh on diesel car owners.

Would that not be a concern for you??

LeBash

I don't get why people don't like diesels. I've an A4 TDI automatic 06 for the last 11 year's and I still love driving it. Way better than my old 1.4 golf and a lot more miles in the same sized tank.

Got a company Kona EV last week and it's real nice to drive, still took the old A4 home at the weekend.

colm_mcm

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

You sure it wasn't closer to e500?

Quite sure. They were in Band E (171-190g which is currently €750)

colm_mcm

naulpolan wrote: »

The tax on the 1.6 petrol after 08 is €750 as far as I'm aware.
I'm looking to buy a cheap low km Avensis for a runaround, spending less than €5k
I have never had a diesel car but the cars that I'm looking at at the min, I think it would make sense for me to make the change.

The newer model (recently discontinued) 1.6 had much lower tax. €390 if I remember correctly.

naulpolan

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Am on the look out for a replacement car as I may have to if my Mazda 3 (2005) starts to give trouble but I am reluctant to look at a diesel car for fear of government policy changes that may come down harsh on diesel car owners.

Would that not be a concern for you??

I wouldn't be too worried tbh, I'm only spending small money so if I get a couple of years of use out it I wouldn't mind. It's unlikely they will do anything to rise the tax and any significant rise in the cost of diesel will cause outrage in the transport industry. I am looking at pre 09 model (for reliability reasons) which will do 10 mpg more than the same car in 1.6 petrol and the tax is €124 cheaper.I am doing around 15k miles p.a.

V8 Interceptor

colm_mcm wrote: »

Quite sure. They were in Band E (171-190g which is currently €750)

Ah post 08. I thought you meant prior.

Dakotabigone

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Because Irish people are cheap.

Not on escorts.

EdgeCase

Arthur Daley wrote: »

At the same time, the EC and ECB were hovering as 2/3rds of the troika. Don't need a lot to join the dots and see how the FF/'green' government were going to play along to their masters tune.

I actually don't think there was a conspiracy here as much as just bad information.

If there was any serious pressure put on it came from the car industry either via the German and French governments, or by direct lobbying of the European institutions and by just simply heavily marketing the idea that eco diesel was the answer to environmental problems.

Quite honestly, I don't think the Irish Government has the resources to carryout that kind of analysis independently. Decisions would have been informed by available information.

Even the EU institutions are very short of that kind of ability and tend to rely on published reports and often those aren't as independent as they seem.

I can fully understand why the green movement and plenty of others across the centre of politics are trying to reduce emissions. We absolutely need to if we're going to impact climate change. The question is how did they end up going so far down this particular diesel fume filled rabbit hole?

You'll also notice that when the information became available, legislators have reacted by trying to clean up air quality in cities.

To me that indicates a big problem with the information and considering that this very powerful and wealthy industry went to enormous lengths to chest emissions tests and were caught red handed, I would say we need to investigate where this information came from...

Renegade Mechanic

Patser wrote: »

As John Water says above:

10 years ago the environmental buzz word was CO2, and diesel cars are much more efficient especially regarding the emission of CO2. Unfortunately diesels instead pump out a lot of other crap - frequently bunched together as particulates - and a 10 year old diesel with poor maintenance (especially regards Diesel Particulate Filter - DPF filter is often something that fails if car isnt looked after or driven too frequently on short hops) will pump out a lot more of that crap.

So 10 years ago it was seen as a solution to one problem, but now is the cause of another.

As for electric cars. If you think they're hard to get now, 10 years ago they were virtually non-existent. Green ministers posed beside G Whizzes back then as if they'd be a solution, but they were such terrible 'cars' (officially classed as heavy quadracycle and exempt from Ncap safety tests for instance) that they put terrible stereotypes into people's minds about electric cars.

But as the tax changes back then showed, the Irish people will jump onto cost savings, so massive swing to diesel ownership.So now the cost savings are being stripped from diesel and put onto the more and more available electric cars to encourage that switch again.

Not a hope in hell will the Irish govt allow the loss in fuel tax that would result from people switching en masse to leccy....
Expect either insane electricity prices, or road tax that will make a Jaguar cheap in comparison.
Or both!

Mike9832

Water John wrote: »

Diesel have lower CO2 emissions TMK, that was the simplistic analysis. This doesn't take into account particle emissions which are the biggest problem with diesel, esp in urban areas.
Electric cars are becoming readily available. The VW Group have a big push in that direction. 2nd hand Nissan Leafs are available now.

What I find funny is scrappage is available from almost every manufacturer and every car, excluding electric

The real lower/zero emission car

Joke it is

Tuco88

Lets get the facts straight first...

In reality you will buy what you are told to buy.

Car manufacturers don't give a feck about the environment.

All in all you gota love the sheep on here who spout on about EV, mad fecking mad to get you to jump on the bandwagon asap with em. Hybrids are the new Diesel gimmick another ditch effort to keep the ICE going a while.

I would personally just buy a horse.

demanufactured

LeBash wrote: »

I don't get why people don't like diesels. I've an A4 TDI automatic 06 for the last 11 year's and I still love driving it.

It pollutes the place.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no eco warrior, I drive a 2.0 tdci mondeo.
But diesels are filthy.
EV are wayoutof reach for most of us yet and don't have the range needed.

CrankyHaus

EdgeCase wrote: »

I actually don't think there was a conspiracy here as much as just bad information.

If there was any serious pressure put on it came from the car industry either via the German and French governments, or by direct lobbying of the European institutions and by just simply heavily marketing the idea that eco diesel was the answer to environmental problems.

Quite honestly, I don't think the Irish Government has the resources to carryout that kind of analysis independently. Decisions would have been informed by available information.

Even the EU institutions are very short of that kind of ability and tend to rely on published reports and often those aren't as independent as they seem.

I can fully understand why the green movement and plenty of others across the centre of politics are trying to reduce emissions. We absolutely need to if we're going to impact climate change. The question is how did they end up going so far down this particular diesel fume filled rabbit hole?

You'll also notice that when the information became available, legislators have reacted by trying to clean up air quality in cities.

To me that indicates a big problem with the information and considering that this very powerful and wealthy industry went to enormous lengths to chest emissions tests and were caught red handed, I would say we need to investigate where this information came from...

I don't disagree. However even at the time it was well known that diesel particulates posed severe environmental and health challenges. New emissions technologies and ever more stringent EURO emissions standards were presented as a panacea. But any unbiased policymaker should have been sceptical of hype from a vested-interest. The Irish Government wilfully ignored the opposing evidence, stuck their fingers in their ears and went along with the path of least resistence. That was a failure of governance and proof that the people involved were not fit for their positions. At the EU level it is pretty clear that the institutions went along with the policies that benefitted European car manufacturers the most and presented it as an environmental policy.

demanufactured

For those of you wondering what comes out of a diesel exhaust.

Floor iti n every gear when taking off and look the rear view mirror, you'll see a lovely cloud of particulate.

Renegade Mechanic

LIGHTNING wrote: »

We already have one of the highest electricity costs in Europe....

Doesn't matter, the Irish govt do not let money go. Something will replace the 60% revenue lost every time someone plugs in

slave1

Mike9832 wrote: »

What I find funny is scrappage is available from almost every manufacturer and every car, excluding electric

The real lower/zero emission car

Joke it is

Hyundai have €4k scrappage on the Ioniq EV, brand new on the road price is now €26k

tphase

Water John wrote: »

Diesel have lower CO2 emissions TMK, that was the simplistic analysis. This doesn't take into account particle emissions which are the biggest problem with diesel, esp in urban areas.
Electric cars are becoming readily available. The VW Group have a big push in that direction. 2nd hand Nissan Leafs are available now.

modern diesels produce lower particulate emissions than petrols ( https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105985784 ) but they do produce NOx which is an issue in urban areas. High particulate emissions tend to be associated older diesels.

colm_mcm

slave1 wrote: »

Hyundai have €4k scrappage on the Ioniq EV, brand new on the road price is now €26k

Can you actually get them though? Is that ex the €1000+ delivery charge they do when there’s scrappage?

colm_mcm

tphase wrote: »

modern diesels produce lower particulate emissions than petrols ( https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105985784 ) but they do produce NOx which is an issue in urban areas. High particulate emissions tend to be associated older diesels.

Particles themselves aren’t the same though.

MarkHenderson

Had our Diesel I30CW for over 10 years now and haven't had as single issue with it bar a rear brake light recall despite 210,000klms. Saved a fortune on fuel as well as tax. Thanks Greens.

MarkHenderson

demanufactured wrote: »

For those of you wondering what comes out of a diesel exhaust.

Floor iti n every gear when taking off and look the rear view mirror, you'll see a lovely cloud of particulate.

Done this many times and nope.

tphase

colm_mcm wrote: »

Particles themselves aren’t the same though.

not sure what you mean by that

Jude13

Jude13 wrote: »

And it will happen again, there are great savings for EV's now (running costs and tax) however when the full impact of the mining of the battery components, the source or electricity to power them (carbon produced), and most importantly how to get rid of these massive batteries after 8+ years then the EV's will be hit too.

No they won't, because that's all bull**** fakenews that has been disproven by study after study.

Even when powered by the dirtiest of coal-fired plants, and even including lifetime co2 (i.e. co2 generated by production, transport, usage and disposal) EVs still come out as significantly cleaner than any diesel/petrol.

You're uncritically parroting nonsense.


https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/electric-cars-emit-less-co2-over-their-lifetime-diesels-even-when-powered-dirtiest-electricity

This is a good breakdown of how industry studies/press releases use creative statistics to spread FUD: https://www.euractiv.com/section/electric-cars/opinion/are-electric-vehicles-cleaner-the-evidence-points-firmly-in-one-direction/

Here's a 7 year old study (using out of date figures that are overly generous to ICE co2 emissions): https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

No they won't, because that's all bull**** fakenews that has been disproven by study after study.

Even when powered by the dirtiest of coal-fired plants, and even including lifetime co2 (i.e. co2 generated by production, transport, usage and disposal) EVs still come out as significantly cleaner than any diesel/petrol.

You're uncritically parroting nonsense.


https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/electric-cars-emit-less-co2-over-their-lifetime-diesels-even-when-powered-dirtiest-electricity

This is a good breakdown of how industry studies/press releases use creative statistics to spread FUD: https://www.euractiv.com/section/electric-cars/opinion/are-electric-vehicles-cleaner-the-evidence-points-firmly-in-one-direction/

Here's a 7 year old study (using out of date figures that are overly generous to ICE co2 emissions): https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x

sorry, you're posting unsupported nonsense too, from a body which, like our DoE espoused diesel-as-saviour barely a decade ago.............but have now changed out minds.

There is no way the EV impact is anywhere near known yet: for good or ill - and either way, all Govt's will be out for their pound/kilo of flesh. There's no way the Dept of Finance/Exchequer will be letting fuel excise dwindle to zero to appease the Dept of Environment et al...

BorneTobyWilde

I think the alternative fuel options was one of the reasons diesel cars were promoted. They thought the use of green fuels in diesels cars would take off, but here we are and there are still no green fuels on the market.

demanufactured

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Done this many times and nope.

What car do you drive?

pmce4

Tesla developing a space program I reckon to dump the batteries in space

cournioni

It's more of a case of choose your poison. There will be negatives no matter what your choice of vehicle.

Main issue is consumption.

BorneTobyWilde

There would be no need for diesel cars if petrol was cheaper than diesel. But its profit before the health of the people, that's Ireland. Should be a total ban on diesel cars, and make petrol 1 euro a litre full stop, a petrol car will use a bit more fuel so the difference to the government would be nothing.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

On a side note, I think diesels were popular here because of the above economic reason, but also people likes the power of a turbo diesel. Most drivers coming from a 1ltr petrol found a 2ltr turbo diesel a massive improvement in power and more refined to drive at motorway speeds. It was the excuse the Irish driver needed to get a car with a proper engine.

Borderfox

The Green party wanted to save the planet but not the people

Gael23

Diesels overall are not as bulletproof as they once were, this is mostly thanks to the DPF. You can stall a modern diesel too which was impossible on the old PD units.
Tax changes are needed to stop people buying them.
S

elperello

Gael23 wrote: »

Diesels overall are not as bulletproof as they once were, this is mostly thanks to the DPF. You can stall a modern diesel too which was impossible on the old PD units.
Tax changes are needed to stop people buying them.
S

Agree that changes are needed but I think they should try to ensure that people who don't need them can buy a reasonable alternative.
Lot's of big mileage drivers will still need diesel for a while yet.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

Agree that changes are needed but I think they should try to ensure that people who don't need them can buy a reasonable alternative.
Lot's of big mileage drivers will still need diesel for a while yet.

Whilst on holidays in northern Norway they were saying that it is really only possible to use diesel in those very remote harsh regions where fuel insurance is very much required.