Yulewolf – A Werewolf Christmas Carol FEEDBACK THREAD

Baggly

sKeith wrote:

We've had this conversation with maha before, mods are well able to step back and allow the game go on without much involvement. answer pms and back room stuff, and then do the munch and lynch. they don't have to read there own games very much. just reply to the pms and let the players bring stuff to their attention that needs it.

I think that's true some of the time but not all of the time. I think there are lots of mechanics that are time sensitive and require quick mod action and others that require mod supervision. You can exclude those mechanics sure, but sometimes they are also the most fun ones as well. I'd rather have the cool mechanic and less bells and whistles, personally.

Necro

Pter wrote: »

Like the current schedule is, admittedly, over represented by probably me and Necro. That's grand because we both like modding a lot, but it would be great to see other such as yourself coming on board. I think there is a barrier to entry for people because the standard setup of our games does require a lot of time and effort. If we can accept some bells and whistles will be excluded, I think that will help. At least sometimes. Other times I want a really complicated game with bells and whistles.

Since Vanillarama 1, between us we've managed to amass 17 games we've modded either together or seperately:eek:

Lemme see:
Buffy, Fr. Ted, Vanillarama 2 together I think.

And the rest apart. So 14 games in about a 20 month period between us. Jaysus.

Ectoplasm

Pter wrote: »

Like the current schedule is, admittedly, over represented by probably me and Necro. That's grand because we both like modding a lot, but it would be great to see other such as yourself coming on board. I think there is a barrier to entry for people because the standard setup of our games does require a lot of time and effort. If we can accept some bells and whistles will be excluded, I think that will help. At least sometimes. Other times I want a really complicated game with bells and whistles.

I think the schedule itself can be a small bit of a barrier too. Like I would love to mod again (and hopefully manage to get through a whole game) but I think about when would suit me - certain times of the year better than others workwise - and if those slots are filled I tend to forget about it.

Now that said, it's amazing to have such a committed community of mods and I applaud ye all for it.

deconduo

Pter wrote: »

Like the current schedule is, admittedly, over represented by probably me and Necro. That's grand because we both like modding a lot, but it would be great to see other such as yourself coming on board. I think there is a barrier to entry for people because the standard setup of our games does require a lot of time and effort. If we can accept some bells and whistles will be excluded, I think that will help. At least sometimes. Other times I want a really complicated game with bells and whistles.

Happy to get involved in hosting btw.

quickbeam

Created a Wiki page for latest game. Am still a bit unclear and which team did the munching so that info might need updating. Plus a lot of the mechanics that I'm not too aware of still.

Pete did I do myself out of 3 bullets by shooting isla or who would have got them?

Also who else has played Vig I found it quite stressful, especially with the deadline and trying to catch up as I was always behind on the morning events

I must also say on reflection I think the sk priest was a great addition as it wasn't done before (here at least) so players couldn't use past game experience to work it out, probably part of the reason the claim worked.

I know I thought an sk priest was uber unlikely

Necro

Deleted User wrote: »

Pete did I do myself out of 3 bullets by shooting isla or who would have got them?

Also who else has played Vig I found it quite stressful, especially with the deadline and trying to catch up as I was always behind on the morning events

I must also say on reflection I think the sk priest was a great addition as it wasn't done before (here at least) so players couldn't use past game experience to work it out, probably part of the reason the claim worked.

I know I thought an sk priest was uber unlikely

I think the three bullets would have gone in Santa's sack to be handed to someone.

Baggly

Wiki for the game looks good qb

Baggly

Deleted User wrote:

Also who else has played Vig I found it quite stressful, especially with the deadline and trying to catch up as I was always behind on the morning events

I was laughing as you said this to me as I don't think most vigs have a set shooting time. We did it so we wouldn't have to constantly watch for kill orders.

Uriel.

I've only one piece of negative feedback but I might leave it be as it's a bit game breaky

sKeith

Uriel. wrote: »

I've only one piece of negative feedback but I might leave it be as it's a bit game breaky

The game is over, give the feedback, it helps for future games.

Uriel.

sKeith wrote: »

The game is over, give the feedback, it helps for future games.

In all honesty I'm not sure that it would.

Baggly

Uriel. wrote:

In all honesty I'm not sure that it would.

Pm me hun

MrsFlushdraw

Pter wrote: »

I don't want to moan and maybe it suits certain people, but the level of work going into games for mods is going up and up and up. I really think it can be a barrier to getting new mods on board and more return mods.

Certainly doesn't put Necro off

sullivlo

Enjoyed the game. It’s the first game in a while that I could get properly into because I was just supervising exams. It was a mind**** with all of the roles though. Not a criticism!!

But on that. I know it was changed last minute (or so) to be more than vanilla-ish, but it was more than vanilla-ish. I enjoyed it, but I signed up as a vanilla game because it requires less time commitment. When it was “ish” I thought maybe like the Harry Potter game or something where there were some additional roles but this was on an entirely other level. The lack of info in the OP caused so much confusion, and I know it’s intended to, but if I didn’t have as much time as I had I would have struggled to keep up.

So on that:

Pter wrote: »

I don't want to moan and maybe it suits certain people, but the level of work going into games for mods is going up and up and up. I really think it can be a barrier to getting new mods on board and more return mods.

Pter wrote: »

Like the current schedule is, admittedly, over represented by probably me and Necro. That's grand because we both like modding a lot, but it would be great to see other such as yourself coming on board. I think there is a barrier to entry for people because the standard setup of our games does require a lot of time and effort. If we can accept some bells and whistles will be excluded, I think that will help. At least sometimes. Other times I want a really complicated game with bells and whistles.

To me, the increase in workload and stuff is due to the complex nature of the games. And that’s all down to mod choice. I enjoyed the impromptu live game - there were no special roles, just a bog standard game. I know people want themes and complexity and whatnot, but there is room for “just” vanilla games with a twist, or vanilla games with flavour. The current trend seems to be a knickerbockerglory with extra nuts, a large helping of whipped cream, a double portion of jelly, served with a side of a shared box of Krispy Kremes.

Drumpot

Does vanilla mean simple or basic game? I know that I’ve been playing this game a while but I’m still a bit lost on some of the lingo.

quickbeam

Drumpot wrote: »

Does vanilla mean simple or basic game? I know that I’ve been playing this game a while but I’m still a bit lost on some of the lingo.

Yeah just a basic game. Some say themeless too but personally I think if the mechanics are simple then it doesn’t matter if there’s a theme attached it is still vanilla.

Necro

quickbeam wrote:

Yeah just a basic game. Some say themeless too but personally I think if the mechanics are simple then it doesn’t matter if there’s a theme attached it is still vanilla.

Yeah vanilla doesn't have to be themeless at all but it needs to be a basic game with wolves, a seer, perhaps a vig or Angel, and maybe a priest (No more priests though Or we'll give Kolido nightmares!)

Mollyb60

Pter wrote: »

Some discussion points the mods want to bring to people’s attention.

1. This wasn’t a randomised game. We did a player draft where mods picked the roles for whichever player they wanted according to draft rules we established (see below)
2. We flagged the game wasn’t vanilla before we began. I don’t think we realised the game was going to be as complicated as it turned out, however.
3. Flavour be flavour. I don’t know if I would use this again. Some of the flavour was important, some was not. I don’t know you can declare flavour important one way or the other. I probably won’t do that again.
4. Hidden info / reveals / updating OP. This was planned by as a key component of the game. I get its not everyone’s cup of tea. I’ve enjoyed its role within this game. That’s not to say I’d do it every game!

1. Don't like the draft idea. It was totally worth a test case to see how it would go but it just leaves mods open to criticism of favoritism. You can't announce it before a game because it biases the players (oh Keith is a good player, the mods would've given him a good role etc etc.) and as I'll mention later on in the post, I'm not a fan of mods being secretive about integral aspects of their game.

2. No issues with the complexity. Thought it was similar to the Jurassic Park game and not as complicated as the Sopranos game.

3. Adding flavour to the kill stories (for me anyway) is a huge pain in the ass. And I find as a player that I gloss over the nice story that the mods have slaved over and just look at who died. And no matter how much the mods say so, players will ALWAYS look for clues in the kill story. So IMO it's just better to be blunt and to the point about it. Mollyb was munched. Mollyb is dead. Although I 100% see that in a themed game it's nice to have a bit of flavour.

4. This is my main gripe with not just this game but others recently. Easiest for me to just quote my own post from the dead room:

I know that I'm probably speaking against the grain here as I think most people like the hidden roles mechanic but I actually really dislike them. I think it puts the village at a serious disadvantage when they're already starting on the back foot. I know the entire point of them is to create confusion and distrust (mistrust?) but as far as I'm concerned it's too much. The village have little enough to go on but when they can't even trust the info they do get from the priest or seer it just devalues the roles of priest and seer and makes it even harder for the village to win. Having the alpha peek as good is one thing but just flat out not putting the full list of roles in the OP isn't fair. Doesn't mean I'll stop playing those type of games though.

Also just to be clear I am not specifically picking at this game or it's mods, sure we even had hidden roles in the gameshow game last month. I'm specifically talking about the trend and the mechanic of hidden roles.

Other than that I really enjoyed myself on Wednesday before I was brutally murdered by a maniac. Unfortunately I was quite ill on Monday and Tuesday so just couldn't focus on the computer screen at all. It was a really well run game and a huge thanks to the mods who very obviously put in a lot of work. Still can't believe Nigel didn't win it for the SK's but the village pulled it out of the fire at the last second for a really impressive win. Well done to all.

Necro

deconduo wrote: »

I dislike the speed fire last day. Could easily have a situation where one of the players is unavailable for a couple of hours which loses them the game

Meant to come back to this point of deco's.

Speed days are difficult, surely. It's very tough on mods though trying to balance how the game pans out, particularly towards the closing stages.

I know we (myself, QB and Stu) ran a non-speed day game there in August and it did come across a little on the long side (although there were mitigating circumstances in our vig dying without having taken a shot, among a number of other reasons).

It's difficult, particularly in a game with lots of players to judge how the game is going to finish by Friday.

Majority voting might be an option, or reversing and having two lynches on a Monday to quicken up the early stage of the game may be another.

Moreso it's also down to the mods who run the game and their availability. There's not an easy answer as I know some people like speed days and others don't.

quickbeam

It was only happenstance that I was even available for the LYLO event. Any other day I’d likely not have been available and not voted at all. Though that would mean a village win anyway without the tiebreaker so probably the same result. It is the perils of speed day I guess.

Ectoplasm

quickbeam wrote: »

It was only happenstance that I was even available for the LYLO event. Any other day I’d likely not have been available and not voted at all. Though that would mean a village win anyway without the tiebreaker so probably the same result. It is the perils of speed day I guess.

Yeah this was an issue in a game I played before. I managed to make it on to vote but hadn't time to read back so picked at random. I understand speed days can be necessary, especially where kill rates are lower than expected but I think it's a good idea to flag them and the timing of them at the start of the game so people can plan accordingly.

I also think that if it's happening during the week, timing key events around traditional worktimes could help. Like have votes around 1.30pm so people who do work can have some time at lunch to read back before voting. Or even include it in the pregame...ask players if game moves to speed days what timings work and go with majority.

deconduo

Necro wrote: »

Meant to come back to this point of deco's.

Speed days are difficult, surely. It's very tough on mods though trying to balance how the game pans out, particularly towards the closing stages.

I know we (myself, QB and Stu) ran a non-speed day game there in August and it did come across a little on the long side (although there were mitigating circumstances in our vig dying without having taken a shot, among a number of other reasons).

It's difficult, particularly in a game with lots of players to judge how the game is going to finish by Friday.

Majority voting might be an option, or reversing and having two lynches on a Monday to quicken up the early stage of the game may be another.

Moreso it's also down to the mods who run the game and their availability. There's not an easy answer as I know some people like speed days and others don't.

No issue with the idea of a speed day in theory - but ideally it should be built into the schedule from the start so people can plan around it.

Lord TSC

deconduo wrote: »

No issue with the idea of a speed day in theory - but ideally it should be built into the schedule from the start so people can plan around it.

I guess the problem though is being able to judge ahead of time when you need it. Most times, it feels as if speed days don't become clearly needed till the day before or day of their necessity.

If, for instance, we had offed Mick earlier in the game, with no vig, the village kill rate would have been halved, and the game could have gone on an extra day or two. The mods would have not been able to build a schedule to accommodate that. Right?

Ectoplasm

Lord TSC wrote: »

I guess the problem though is being able to judge ahead of time when you need it. Most times, it feels as if speed days don't become clearly needed till the day before or day of their necessity.

If, for instance, we had offed Mick earlier in the game, with no vig, the village kill rate would have been halved, and the game could have gone on an extra day or two. The mods would have not been able to build a schedule to accommodate that. Right?

It could be flagged though. For example, saying something like "If needed speed days will take place from Friday with the following schedule: Normal Munch at 10 then Lynch at 2 followed by immediate munch, Lynch at 6 etc."

Btw I'm not being critical of the last game. I was happy to have it over and done with! Just offering more general feedback.

sKeith

Lord TSC wrote: »

I guess the problem though is being able to judge ahead of time when you need it. Most times, it feels as if speed days don't become clearly needed till the day before or day of their necessity.

If, for instance, we had offed Mick earlier in the game, with no vig, the village kill rate would have been halved, and the game could have gone on an extra day or two. The mods would have not been able to build a schedule to accommodate that. Right?

Mick holstering D1 and double kill on necro didn't help.

Necro

sKeith wrote: »

Mick holstering D1 and double kill on necro didn't help.

Yeah. Bastards. :mad:

Kolido

Ectoplasm wrote: »

It could be flagged though. For example, saying something like "If needed speed days will take place from Friday with the following schedule: Normal Munch at 10 then Lynch at 2 followed by immediate munch, Lynch at 6 etc."

Btw I'm not being critical of the last game. I was happy to have it over and done with! Just offering more general feedback.

This is probably how we should do it if possible, decide before the game starts if it will be speed day Thurs/Fri or if it will be long game, pausing Sat like we did a couple of times. Players can be more prepared then. Although in most cases I would be expecting speed days anyway without notice, doesnt affect me much as I rarely make the end game anyway!

sullivlo

Necro wrote: »

Yeah. Bastards. :mad:

I know

kitten_k

Great game mods, have only managed to finish reading the thread! Can’t believe the wolves got me killed before I got my proper role.

Ectoplasm wrote: »

I think the schedule itself can be a small bit of a barrier too. Like I would love to mod again (and hopefully manage to get through a whole game) but I think about when would suit me - certain times of the year better than others workwise - and if those slots are filled I tend to forget about it.

Now that said, it's amazing to have such a committed community of mods and I applaud ye all for it.

Just on this - If there is a month you are available for post it in the mod thread. The mods for that game may accept an extra hand (which will allow you to learn without too much pressur) or if there is a mod in that slot that has modded before they might step down and give a newbie a shot (obviously up to the current mods and depends on how much work they have already put in)