€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

Podge_irl

Rennaws wrote: »

There’s nothing in a hospital that can’t be moved..

That includes consultants..

We could have built a massive hospital in a green field site off the M50 for a fraction of what this will cost by the time it’s finshed.

Two massive hospitals, so that it is co-located with a tertiary referral hospital. That is quite the investment.

Also it turns out doctors are actually people and can not in fact be moved like furniture.

Just for clarification, what people actually seem to want is more political interference in infrastructure decisions and a focus on money over providing best services to people?

Anita Blow

Rennaws wrote: »

There’s nothing in a hospital that can’t be moved..

That includes consultants..

We could have built a massive hospital in a green field site off the M50 for a fraction of what this will cost by the time it’s finshed.

Let’s bear in mind, this project won’t provide any extra beds..

Not exactly value for money is it..

We have no business building the most expensive children’s hospital in the world when we can’t even get the basics right.

It does provide increased bed capacity? The NCH provides 400+ single rooms (our current hospitals have up to 6 beds in a ward). Temple St has 94 inpatient beds, Crumlin 187 beds and Tallaght has a very small paediatric dept so its about 300 beds in total. In addition to this there will be inpatient beds in the new satellite centres so capacity can be significantly increased.

Proposing to build an entirely new adult hospital was dealt with in the Dolphin report. They ultimately advised against it because it would cost multiples of what the current NCH is costing and we don't have the population nor budget to support a 6th adult tertiary hospital.

If traffic becomes a major issue then the area around the hospital can be CPO'd and roads widened for a fraction of that price.

kippy

Berserker wrote: »

Those posts have been advertised and the finance is available to hire the staff above but they just cannot get the people. Ireland trains medical professionals to move abroad and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. If you could go and work in the USA for $500K a year or stay here and earn 40% of that, what would you do?

Doesn't this just backup my point? (remembering that my post was in response to someone who sait they had no issues with the overrun as it was for the kids hospital.

If people are going abroad for better money to work, surely the 500+ million extra that this project is gonna cost could have been spent to retain them?

enricoh

Meh, the hse overspent by 700 million this year n not a word about it. The government just wrote the cheque in octobers budget.
Sure they might as well aim for a billion next october!
Why couldn't it be done 5 years ago, construction tender prices have probably doubled in that time.

gctest50

Almost half a billion euro has been paid in out-of-court settlements for claims taken against the Health Service Executive (HSE) over the past five years.

Podge_irl

gctest50 wrote: »

Almost half a billion euro has been paid in out-of-court settlements for claims taken against the Health Service Executive (HSE) over the past five years.

Cool story. The relevance?

Sleeper12

FG aren't responsible for this. FG are only responsible for the good things that happen in Ireland. Everything else someone else needs to take personal responsibility.

Feisar

Who's doing PQS for the goverment does anyone know?

Feisar

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Never worked on a construction project then?

They change a lot, nothing will ever be fully agreed and signed off before finishing - let alone starting!

Employed to do A, sure that's not ready quite yet, here's B and end up at C.

SEPT 23 1989

I don't know how the good folks at BAM keep a straight face when they are presenting their revised figures to the gombeens

Ah, lads. We are where we are. That horse has bolted. Sure, haven't the taxpayers of Ireland paid tens of billions of the debts of private financial institutions/gamblers. We can manage another billion to help poor, sick children...

Be positive and stop begrudging these struggling enterprises a billion euro more. Be assured that the owners of these companies are all paying 50%-60% tax back to our state just as all PAYE taxpayers earning above €34,000 must pay 50%-60% tax. Yes, the political representatives of Ireland's "squeezed middle" in Dáil Éireann will ensure this with their foolproof legislation! The rich get richer, and we increasingly are fúcked over to help them.

We are ruled by absolutely treacherous "public representatives" and their civil service whose daily task is to think of ways to shift the cost of all of their fúckups upon our shoulders, before they then have the temerity to cnag ar an doras for our vote at election time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7vNRYmL8

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, lads. We are where we are. That horse has bolted. Sure, haven't the taxpayers of Ireland paid tens of billions of the debts of private financial institutions/gamblers. We can manage another billion to help poor, sick children...

Be positive and stop begrudging these struggling enterprises a billion euro more. Be assured that the owners of these companies are all paying 50%-60% tax back to our state just as all PAYE taxpayers earning above €34,000 must pay 50%-60% tax. Yes, the political representatives of Ireland's "squeezed middle" in Dáil Éireann will ensure this with their foolproof legislation! The rich get richer, and we increasingly are fúcked over to help them.

We are ruled by absolutely treacherous "public representatives" and their civil service whose daily task is to think of ways to shift the cost of all of their fúckups upon our shoulders, before they then have the temerity to cnag ar an doras for our vote at election time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7vNRYmL8

But the economy!

The Bishop Basher

Podge_irl wrote: »

Two massive hospitals, so that it is co-located with a tertiary referral hospital. That is quite the investment.

It would have been a better investment then the current mess which most of us saw coming..

Podge_irl wrote: »

Also it turns out doctors are actually people and can not in fact be moved like furniture.

Why not ? Business premises move all the time without issue. My own office moved about 8 years ago. We all managed to move with it. I don’t see why doctors are special on that front..

thecomedian

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I don't know how the good folks at BAM keep a straight face when they are presenting their revised figures to the gombeens

Do you realize that it could go to court if the lowest offer isn’t accepted. Which could take god knows how long to get through and could delay the build

Podge_irl

thecomedian wrote: »

Do you realize that it could go to court if the lowest offer isn’t accepted. Which could take god knows how long to get through and could delay the build

It doesn't have to be the lowest offer, but the criteria have to be laid out beforehand. The issue here is more that the estimate was massively under the tenders received.

Podge_irl

Rennaws wrote: »

It would have been a better investment then the current mess which most of us saw coming..

So building a whole new tertiary hospital and shutting down James' would have been a better solution? That's a pretty bold claim.

Rubberchikken

whoever thought it was a good idea to build this in the city centre is making fools of us.
of course its going to run over budget. what build in tjis country hasn't?
in years to come when varadakar and his cronies and his socks are retired there's going to be a tribunal into this sham of a development. i for one definitely wont be surprised.

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

So building a whole new tertiary hospital and shutting down James' would have been a better solution? That's a pretty bold claim.

I think buying the irfu land at newlands building the children’s hospital then selling the James’s site and building a new one at newlands then selling the Coombe and building a new maternity there too could have been a great 20 year plan. Could even have built a shuttle luas from the red cow.

Anita Blow

salmocab wrote: »

I think buying the irfu land at newlands building the children’s hospital then selling the James’s site and building a new one at newlands then selling the Coombe and building a new maternity there too could have been a great 20 year plan. Could even have built a shuttle luas from the red cow.

If a 400 bed hospital is costing us 1.4 billion to build, how much do you think it would cost to relocate a 1100-bed hospital + the additional >1 billion worth of research, lab and academic facilities it has.
Moving St James' is an utter fantasy that has no basis in reality. In fact it was considered in the Dolphin report and it was concluded that to move St James' would be so prohibitively expensive and large in scale that it would take decades.

SEPT 23 1989

Rubberchikken wrote: »

whoever thought it was a good idea to build this in the city centre is making fools of us.
of course its going to run over budget. what build in tjis country hasn't?
in years to come when varadakar and his cronies and his socks are retired there's going to be a tribunal into this sham of a development. i for one definitely wont be surprised.

They were offered a site for free at newlands cross plenty of space no need to be digging big expensive holes in the ground Fast motorway access from the north south east and west of the country

the children and their parents came last in the thoughts of the pampered corrupt trough swillers that make the decisions

I hope their children or grandchildren never need fast medical assistance

MarkHenderson

FG's Ireland. New politics my hole.

salmocab

Anita Blow wrote: »

If a 400 bed hospital is costing us 1.4 billion to build, how much do you think it would cost to relocate a 1100-bed hospital + the additional >1 billion worth of research, lab and academic facilities it has.
Moving St James' is an utter fantasy that has no basis in reality. In fact it was considered in the Dolphin report and it was concluded that to move St James' would be so prohibitively expensive and large in scale that it would take decades.

The building costs out there would be lower and probably end up with a better project in the end because of the extra space, the Coombe is a great hospital but badly in need of moving. Moving Jamess would be a massive task alright and very expensive but hospitals have lifespans anyway and it will either bit by bit get knocked and rebuilt on its current site or eventually in 40/50 years time need to be moved for a rebuild but probably both which in the longer term will cost more than building a new one on a green site.
I don’t think for a minute this will happen by the way.

Podge_irl

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

the children and their parents came last in the thoughts of the pampered corrupt trough swillers that make the decisions

I hope their children or grandchildren never need fast medical assistance

The government literally took the recommendation of the medical professionals as to the best location to build a new children's hospital on the basis of best medical outcomes for patients.

There was zero political input into the decision. You are apparently suggesting that there should have been. I'm just confused because ordinarily when a government overrides expert opinion for cost-cutting measures it is not seen as a good thing.

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

Apart from medical outcomes, but who cares about that right?

Outcomes?

http://connollyforkidshospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Lets-clear-up-some-misunderstandings-C4KH-replies.pdf

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/thousands-of-hearts-break-over-location-of-new-childrens-hospital-34674702.html

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure...why on earth should we listen to medical experts when deciding investment in medical infrastructure. The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

Are they experts in transport aswell?

GOSH is in Central London. So yeah exactly like St James.
https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/your-hospital-visit/travelling-gosh

They've pretty much removed all the parking options around it, and its within the congestion zone. No one drives in London unless they have no other options.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/red-arrows-hit-parking-fine-2953842

I love the advice for wheelchair users.

Russell Square and Holborn stations are not easy for wheelchair users, as there are steps from the platforms. If you require step-free travel, it is best to use the bus or walk.

Podge_irl wrote: »

How on earth is it hard to get to James' via public transport. The main train station is nearby and a bus and Luas line literally go through the grounds of the hospital. It is the easiest hospital by far to get to via public transport.

I can cycle to James in 30 mins. It would take an hour on public transport. All of it standing as its packed like sardines on the train. An hour by car to to do 10km at peak. Assuming no delays.

beauf

Podge_irl wrote: »

...There was zero political input into the decision....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hospital-chairman-cites-differences-1.865650

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/the-national-children-s-hospital-a-timeline-1.2628147

...Ms Harney said it was not in the remit of the board to “revisit the government decision taken on the location of the new hospital”....

Its been a political football from the beginning.

https://www.thejournal.ie/developer-said-relocating-childrens-hospital-could-save-e150m-34645-Oct2010/

beauf

Anyway its done. You've got your way, and we'll all end up paying for it.

facehugger99

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They were offered a site for free at newlands cross plenty of space no need to be digging big expensive holes in the ground Fast motorway access from the north south east and west of the country

the children and their parents came last in the thoughts of the pampered corrupt trough swillers that make the decisions

I hope their children or grandchildren never need fast medical assistance

Someone's never been on the M50 I see or driven through Newlands Cross.

NIMAN

facehugger99 wrote: »

Someone's never been on the M50 I see or driven through Newlands Cross.

There's motorway access to Donegal now is there?

salmocab

facehugger99 wrote: »

Someone's never been on the M50 I see or driven through Newlands Cross.

James’s is inside the M50 people from the country would likely still have to go around the M50 or through newlands

pawdee

I haven't been following the story so I'm not familiar with the background. Is this a traditional procurement route? If the contract sum is 1.4 billion what's the final account going to be? When BAM built the Tralee bypass about 5 years ago the contract sum was 30 million euros. They were claiming an additional 46 million. Bear in mind that was a greenfield site and as straightforward a road building job as you could wish for. The final account on this hospital, a complex project in the city centre? Hang on there 'til I pluck a figure out of my a**e...............2.9 billion.