€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 7:11pm

topper75 wrote: »

Surely that price and its component parts are reviewed and compared with reality by somebody on the govt side? Someone well paid too I'm guessing.

I take you are not too familiar with what has gone on?

jmayo · 19-12-2018 7:12pm

klaaaz wrote: »

They and other parties are not in power so have no control over the most expensive hospital in the world.

FG is a right wing capitalist party and we don't have the most generous social welfare system in the world, its lagging far behind many EU countries. Personal income taxation is quite low here which benefits the wealthy. Seems you have not moved on and are stuck in the past of 50 years ago in the Troubles. Welcome to the 21st century, you've spoken like a true FG person just like Leo yesterday in the Dail.

Ehh Gerry McCabe wasn't murdered 50 years ago sunshine and you fooking know it.
And the gent from Kerry didn't collect his killers from jail 50 years ago.

I will leave this here to show how bad our welfare system is.
Well bad that is for the ones having to pay for it.
Something somehow I bet you don't do.

Margaret Cash is on the equivalent of over €80k per year before tax.
Oh and even after she gets the after tax amount of €54k she still doesn't have to pay for healthcare or legal aid like a normal taxpayer would have to.

Now tell us all again how our social welfare system is lagging behind other EU states. :rolleyes:

Actually don't bother I can't be bothered arguing with you at this stage.

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 7:15pm

Berserker wrote: »

The contract was awarded last year.

Does it say that everything was signed and agreed on? I doubt it!

jmayo · 19-12-2018 7:21pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure...why on earth should we listen to medical experts when deciding investment in medical infrastructure. The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

Are you seriously comparing London's transport infrastructure to Dublins ?
Here go debate with Klaaz.

Podge_irl wrote: »

How on earth is it hard to get to James' via public transport. The main train station is nearby and a bus and Luas line literally go through the grounds of the hospital. It is the easiest hospital by far to get to via public transport.

It is the National Children's hospital, remember that little nugget for a start.
Say you travel from Bellmullet, Donegal, Dingle, Ennis, Dungarvan to it with your sick child.
And they are probably not very well if they are going to it in the first place.
Are you going to take the bus to Dublin, because you actually get a train from some of those locations ?
Even if you can take a train are you going to put a sick child on the train where they may be exposed to infections and you can't control the environment=?

BTW why are they developing two units in Tallaght and Connolly if this was the best site ?

And even in Dublin area, how many people in Dublin live beside a Luas line or train line ?
Will you take the Dart from Dun Laoghaire to Tara St/Connolly/Pearse, walk a bit and then Luas it ?

I swear this place is inhabited by idiots, I really do at this stage.

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 7:28pm

jmayo wrote: »

Actually don't bother I can't be bothered arguing with you at this stage.

Gladly as your defence of FG on the 1bn euro overspend is a classic deflection move. It's a pity you're ok with FG wasting taxpayers money in the order of billions.

KevRossi · 19-12-2018 7:31pm

One of the very few major construction projects ever done in this country on time and under budget was Croke Park.

I heard the story a few times that at the awarding of the contract to the builders (infamous company for running overtime and over budget on state projects) they were told that they can shaft the GAA for as much as they wish, but would probably never get a job in this country again if they did.

So it was duly done, on time, under budget and with remarkably few expensive snags and fixes.

Most major construction companies have a team of engineers and legals who go through a tender with a fine tooth comb and pick out all the anomalies. This is where they make the serious profits over the course of a project.

Skylinehead · 19-12-2018 7:32pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Be interesting to see details. I'd say they'd no trouble finding construction workers....were as for social housing, there's a shortage of them :rolleyes:

Are you suggesting we don't need hospitals?

I'll keep that in mind the next time you mention the word trollies.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 7:33pm

jmayo wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing London's transport infrastructure to Dublins ?

No, but James' is the best connected hospital by public transport.

jmayo wrote: »

It is the National Children's hospital, remember that little nugget for a start.
Say you travel from Bellmullet, Donegal, Dingle, Ennis, Dungarvan to it with your sick child.
And they are probably not very well if they are going to it in the first place.
Are you going to take the bus to Dublin, because you actually get a train from some of those locations ?
Even if you can take a train are you going to put a sick child on the train where they may be exposed to infections and you can't control the environment=?

BTW why are they developing two units in Tallaght and Connolly if this was the best site ?

And even in Dublin area, how many people in Dublin live beside a Luas line or train line ?
Will you take the Dart from Dun Laoghaire to Tara St/Connolly/Pearse, walk a bit and then Luas it ?

I swear this place is inhabited by idiots, I really do at this stage.

The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

So is your issue with the level of public transport or the concept of travelling via public transport? Ambulances aren't about to deposit people at a train station to pop up to Heuston. The vast majority of people flowing in and out of the hospital will not be critically ill children. The new NCH will have, incidentally, about 500 parking spaces in it.

They are developing units in Tallaght and Connolly because they are more easily accessible. But the highly specialised care will be done in the NCH where it can be done best. They are literally trying to both address concerns about access while maintaining the best standards of care and people are complaining about the cost. Tallaght and Connolly are also almost completely inaccessible for people without a car.

What this is an example of is a political party not interfering in a decision and following expert advice. But apparently everyone else knows better because the single most important factor in a hospital is how easy it is to drive to it.

Naos · 19-12-2018 7:42pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Gladly as your defence of FG on the 1bn euro overspend is a classic deflection move. It's a pity you're ok with FG wasting taxpayers money in the order of billions.

On this thread you are giving out about the Government wasting taxpayers money.

On the 'Strokestown' thread you are defending someone who deliberately avoided paying taxes.

Are you just anti-Government no matter what?

Thatnastyboy · 19-12-2018 7:42pm

thecomedian wrote: »

Does it say that everything was signed and agreed on? I doubt it!

Never worked on a construction project then?

They change a lot, nothing will ever be fully agreed and signed off before finishing - let alone starting!

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 7:45pm

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Never worked on a construction project then?

They change a lot, nothing will ever be fully agreed and signed off before finishing - let alone starting!

That’s not what I was saying.

This was doomed from very early on and there wasn’t much the Gov/client could do.

facehugger99 · 19-12-2018 7:45pm

KevRossi wrote: »

One of the very few major construction projects ever done in this country on time and under budget was Croke Park.

Not true, most, but not all, of the motorway schemes delivered between 2004 - 2010 were the same.

Anita Blow · 19-12-2018 7:45pm

Podge is dead right. People are free to read the Dolphin report, informed by international experts and paediatric medical experts in Ireland on the decision-making process for where to locate the hospital. St James' came out on top even after considering access, and it was the only hospital considered that was endorsed by an existing children's hospital (Crumlin).

The cost overrun is absolutely abhorrent and deserves scrutiny, but the location is the best out of the 6 or so adult hospitals that made submissions for it to be located with them.

James Brown · 19-12-2018 7:52pm

Nixonbot wrote: »

Are you suggesting we don't need hospitals?

I'll keep that in mind the next time you mention the word trollies.

Are you condoning witch trials?

Where did you get that, are we just throwing any aul' sh*te out there?

They say there's no money for social housing in any great number and we'd have a tough time finding the construction workers anyway. Then we've this hospital going over budget by a billion and the only cry is, 'it might be the most expensive, but it'll be one of the best!'. Money, no problem and workers to build it too. Just pointing it out there boss.

NSAman · 19-12-2018 7:58pm

Jesus, is Calatrava building this also?

Problem with Ireland is that NO ONE is accountable for anything. Make those who costed this, get fired. Double check the figures and if extra money is needed, let those that made it happen pay out of their pensions.

(I know this is unrealistic, but until someone pays for their mistakes nothing will change)

It is PUBLIC money... no one gives a crap because it just appears from no where.

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 8:04pm

Naos wrote: »

On this thread you are giving out about the Government wasting taxpayers money.

On the 'Strokestown' thread you are defending someone who deliberately avoided paying taxes.

Are you just anti-Government no matter what?

Nice twisting. I never defended the tax avoidance person, I justifiably criticised the violent manner at how the eviction had taken place.

The FG govt with the main opposition party as backers have wasted over a billion euros of taxpayers money on a hospital with probably another billion to come, are you going to criticise them or condone them?

The Bishop Basher · 19-12-2018 8:12pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Apart from medical outcomes, but who cares about that right?

There’s nothing in a hospital that can’t be moved..

That includes consultants..

We could have built a massive hospital in a green field site off the M50 for a fraction of what this will cost by the time it’s finshed.

Let’s bear in mind, this project won’t provide any extra beds..

Not exactly value for money is it..

We have no business building the most expensive children’s hospital in the world when we can’t even get the basics right.

gctest50 · 19-12-2018 8:12pm

Probably been cheaper/better/faster/more room for expansion to put it outside the m50 and run a dedicated rail link to it

Anytime you see something done in Irelan in "awkward" way - there is a massive fiddle in there somewhere somehow

holystungun9 · 19-12-2018 8:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

More than a Burj Khalifa. Fantastic.

Black and yellow, black and yellow, black and yellow. Love that track!

19-12-2018 8:18pm

Reminds me of that road built in Russia for the Winter Olympics. Cost 9.4 billion dollars.

Cowboys, Ted.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 8:20pm

Rennaws wrote: »

There’s nothing in a hospital that can’t be moved..

That includes consultants..

We could have built a massive hospital in a green field site off the M50 for a fraction of what this will cost by the time it’s finshed.

Two massive hospitals, so that it is co-located with a tertiary referral hospital. That is quite the investment.

Also it turns out doctors are actually people and can not in fact be moved like furniture.

Just for clarification, what people actually seem to want is more political interference in infrastructure decisions and a focus on money over providing best services to people?

Anita Blow · 19-12-2018 8:33pm

Rennaws wrote: »

There’s nothing in a hospital that can’t be moved..

That includes consultants..

We could have built a massive hospital in a green field site off the M50 for a fraction of what this will cost by the time it’s finshed.

Let’s bear in mind, this project won’t provide any extra beds..

Not exactly value for money is it..

We have no business building the most expensive children’s hospital in the world when we can’t even get the basics right.

It does provide increased bed capacity? The NCH provides 400+ single rooms (our current hospitals have up to 6 beds in a ward). Temple St has 94 inpatient beds, Crumlin 187 beds and Tallaght has a very small paediatric dept so its about 300 beds in total. In addition to this there will be inpatient beds in the new satellite centres so capacity can be significantly increased.

Proposing to build an entirely new adult hospital was dealt with in the Dolphin report. They ultimately advised against it because it would cost multiples of what the current NCH is costing and we don't have the population nor budget to support a 6th adult tertiary hospital.

If traffic becomes a major issue then the area around the hospital can be CPO'd and roads widened for a fraction of that price.

kippy · 19-12-2018 8:34pm

Berserker wrote: »

Those posts have been advertised and the finance is available to hire the staff above but they just cannot get the people. Ireland trains medical professionals to move abroad and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. If you could go and work in the USA for $500K a year or stay here and earn 40% of that, what would you do?

Doesn't this just backup my point? (remembering that my post was in response to someone who sait they had no issues with the overrun as it was for the kids hospital.

If people are going abroad for better money to work, surely the 500+ million extra that this project is gonna cost could have been spent to retain them?

enricoh · 19-12-2018 8:36pm

Meh, the hse overspent by 700 million this year n not a word about it. The government just wrote the cheque in octobers budget.
Sure they might as well aim for a billion next october!
Why couldn't it be done 5 years ago, construction tender prices have probably doubled in that time.

gctest50 · 19-12-2018 8:42pm

Almost half a billion euro has been paid in out-of-court settlements for claims taken against the Health Service Executive (HSE) over the past five years.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 8:43pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Almost half a billion euro has been paid in out-of-court settlements for claims taken against the Health Service Executive (HSE) over the past five years.

Cool story. The relevance?

Sleeper12 · 19-12-2018 8:54pm

FG aren't responsible for this. FG are only responsible for the good things that happen in Ireland. Everything else someone else needs to take personal responsibility.

Feisar · 19-12-2018 9:09pm

Who's doing PQS for the goverment does anyone know?

Feisar · 19-12-2018 9:16pm

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Never worked on a construction project then?

They change a lot, nothing will ever be fully agreed and signed off before finishing - let alone starting!

Employed to do A, sure that's not ready quite yet, here's B and end up at C.

SEPT 23 1989 · 19-12-2018 9:18pm

I don't know how the good folks at BAM keep a straight face when they are presenting their revised figures to the gombeens

19-12-2018 9:23pm

Ah, lads. We are where we are. That horse has bolted. Sure, haven't the taxpayers of Ireland paid tens of billions of the debts of private financial institutions/gamblers. We can manage another billion to help poor, sick children...

Be positive and stop begrudging these struggling enterprises a billion euro more. Be assured that the owners of these companies are all paying 50%-60% tax back to our state just as all PAYE taxpayers earning above €34,000 must pay 50%-60% tax. Yes, the political representatives of Ireland's "squeezed middle" in Dáil Éireann will ensure this with their foolproof legislation! The rich get richer, and we increasingly are fúcked over to help them.

We are ruled by absolutely treacherous "public representatives" and their civil service whose daily task is to think of ways to shift the cost of all of their fúckups upon our shoulders, before they then have the temerity to cnag ar an doras for our vote at election time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7vNRYmL8

James Brown · 19-12-2018 9:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, lads. We are where we are. That horse has bolted. Sure, haven't the taxpayers of Ireland paid tens of billions of the debts of private financial institutions/gamblers. We can manage another billion to help poor, sick children...

Be positive and stop begrudging these struggling enterprises a billion euro more. Be assured that the owners of these companies are all paying 50%-60% tax back to our state just as all PAYE taxpayers earning above €34,000 must pay 50%-60% tax. Yes, the political representatives of Ireland's "squeezed middle" in Dáil Éireann will ensure this with their foolproof legislation! The rich get richer, and we increasingly are fúcked over to help them.

We are ruled by absolutely treacherous "public representatives" and their civil service whose daily task is to think of ways to shift the cost of all of their fúckups upon our shoulders, before they then have the temerity to cnag ar an doras for our vote at election time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7vNRYmL8

But the economy!

The Bishop Basher · 19-12-2018 10:00pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Two massive hospitals, so that it is co-located with a tertiary referral hospital. That is quite the investment.

It would have been a better investment then the current mess which most of us saw coming..

Podge_irl wrote: »

Also it turns out doctors are actually people and can not in fact be moved like furniture.

Why not ? Business premises move all the time without issue. My own office moved about 8 years ago. We all managed to move with it. I don’t see why doctors are special on that front..

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 10:58pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I don't know how the good folks at BAM keep a straight face when they are presenting their revised figures to the gombeens

Do you realize that it could go to court if the lowest offer isn’t accepted. Which could take god knows how long to get through and could delay the build

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 11:06pm

thecomedian wrote: »

Do you realize that it could go to court if the lowest offer isn’t accepted. Which could take god knows how long to get through and could delay the build

It doesn't have to be the lowest offer, but the criteria have to be laid out beforehand. The issue here is more that the estimate was massively under the tenders received.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 11:07pm

Rennaws wrote: »

It would have been a better investment then the current mess which most of us saw coming..

So building a whole new tertiary hospital and shutting down James' would have been a better solution? That's a pretty bold claim.

Rubberchikken · 19-12-2018 11:14pm

whoever thought it was a good idea to build this in the city centre is making fools of us.
of course its going to run over budget. what build in tjis country hasn't?
in years to come when varadakar and his cronies and his socks are retired there's going to be a tribunal into this sham of a development. i for one definitely wont be surprised.

salmocab · 19-12-2018 11:17pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

So building a whole new tertiary hospital and shutting down James' would have been a better solution? That's a pretty bold claim.

I think buying the irfu land at newlands building the children’s hospital then selling the James’s site and building a new one at newlands then selling the Coombe and building a new maternity there too could have been a great 20 year plan. Could even have built a shuttle luas from the red cow.

Anita Blow · 19-12-2018 11:22pm

salmocab wrote: »

I think buying the irfu land at newlands building the children’s hospital then selling the James’s site and building a new one at newlands then selling the Coombe and building a new maternity there too could have been a great 20 year plan. Could even have built a shuttle luas from the red cow.

If a 400 bed hospital is costing us 1.4 billion to build, how much do you think it would cost to relocate a 1100-bed hospital + the additional >1 billion worth of research, lab and academic facilities it has.
Moving St James' is an utter fantasy that has no basis in reality. In fact it was considered in the Dolphin report and it was concluded that to move St James' would be so prohibitively expensive and large in scale that it would take decades.

SEPT 23 1989 · 19-12-2018 11:27pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

whoever thought it was a good idea to build this in the city centre is making fools of us.
of course its going to run over budget. what build in tjis country hasn't?
in years to come when varadakar and his cronies and his socks are retired there's going to be a tribunal into this sham of a development. i for one definitely wont be surprised.

They were offered a site for free at newlands cross plenty of space no need to be digging big expensive holes in the ground Fast motorway access from the north south east and west of the country

the children and their parents came last in the thoughts of the pampered corrupt trough swillers that make the decisions

I hope their children or grandchildren never need fast medical assistance

MarkHenderson · 19-12-2018 11:29pm

FG's Ireland. New politics my hole.

salmocab · 19-12-2018 11:44pm

Anita Blow wrote: »

If a 400 bed hospital is costing us 1.4 billion to build, how much do you think it would cost to relocate a 1100-bed hospital + the additional >1 billion worth of research, lab and academic facilities it has.
Moving St James' is an utter fantasy that has no basis in reality. In fact it was considered in the Dolphin report and it was concluded that to move St James' would be so prohibitively expensive and large in scale that it would take decades.

The building costs out there would be lower and probably end up with a better project in the end because of the extra space, the Coombe is a great hospital but badly in need of moving. Moving Jamess would be a massive task alright and very expensive but hospitals have lifespans anyway and it will either bit by bit get knocked and rebuilt on its current site or eventually in 40/50 years time need to be moved for a rebuild but probably both which in the longer term will cost more than building a new one on a green site.
I don’t think for a minute this will happen by the way.

Podge_irl · 20-12-2018 2:22am

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

the children and their parents came last in the thoughts of the pampered corrupt trough swillers that make the decisions

I hope their children or grandchildren never need fast medical assistance

The government literally took the recommendation of the medical professionals as to the best location to build a new children's hospital on the basis of best medical outcomes for patients.

There was zero political input into the decision. You are apparently suggesting that there should have been. I'm just confused because ordinarily when a government overrides expert opinion for cost-cutting measures it is not seen as a good thing.

beauf · 20-12-2018 4:46am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Apart from medical outcomes, but who cares about that right?

Outcomes?

http://connollyforkidshospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Lets-clear-up-some-misunderstandings-C4KH-replies.pdf

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/thousands-of-hearts-break-over-location-of-new-childrens-hospital-34674702.html

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure...why on earth should we listen to medical experts when deciding investment in medical infrastructure. The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

Are they experts in transport aswell?

GOSH is in Central London. So yeah exactly like St James.
https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/your-hospital-visit/travelling-gosh

They've pretty much removed all the parking options around it, and its within the congestion zone. No one drives in London unless they have no other options.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/red-arrows-hit-parking-fine-2953842

I love the advice for wheelchair users.

Russell Square and Holborn stations are not easy for wheelchair users, as there are steps from the platforms. If you require step-free travel, it is best to use the bus or walk.

Podge_irl wrote: »

How on earth is it hard to get to James' via public transport. The main train station is nearby and a bus and Luas line literally go through the grounds of the hospital. It is the easiest hospital by far to get to via public transport.

I can cycle to James in 30 mins. It would take an hour on public transport. All of it standing as its packed like sardines on the train. An hour by car to to do 10km at peak. Assuming no delays.

beauf · 20-12-2018 4:55am

Podge_irl wrote: »

...There was zero political input into the decision....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hospital-chairman-cites-differences-1.865650

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/the-national-children-s-hospital-a-timeline-1.2628147

...Ms Harney said it was not in the remit of the board to “revisit the government decision taken on the location of the new hospital”....

Its been a political football from the beginning.

https://www.thejournal.ie/developer-said-relocating-childrens-hospital-could-save-e150m-34645-Oct2010/

beauf · 20-12-2018 4:56am

Anyway its done. You've got your way, and we'll all end up paying for it.

facehugger99 · 20-12-2018 7:41am

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They were offered a site for free at newlands cross plenty of space no need to be digging big expensive holes in the ground Fast motorway access from the north south east and west of the country

the children and their parents came last in the thoughts of the pampered corrupt trough swillers that make the decisions

I hope their children or grandchildren never need fast medical assistance

Someone's never been on the M50 I see or driven through Newlands Cross.

NIMAN · 20-12-2018 7:43am

facehugger99 wrote: »

Someone's never been on the M50 I see or driven through Newlands Cross.

There's motorway access to Donegal now is there?

salmocab · 20-12-2018 8:50am

facehugger99 wrote: »

Someone's never been on the M50 I see or driven through Newlands Cross.

James’s is inside the M50 people from the country would likely still have to go around the M50 or through newlands

pawdee · 20-12-2018 9:58am

I haven't been following the story so I'm not familiar with the background. Is this a traditional procurement route? If the contract sum is 1.4 billion what's the final account going to be? When BAM built the Tralee bypass about 5 years ago the contract sum was 30 million euros. They were claiming an additional 46 million. Bear in mind that was a greenfield site and as straightforward a road building job as you could wish for. The final account on this hospital, a complex project in the city centre? Hang on there 'til I pluck a figure out of my a**e...............2.9 billion.

€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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