Proposal for sliding scale of speeding fines / points

Long overdue in my opinion and will work a lot better than the current system at dealing with the most dangerous offenders, issues with detection notwithstanding



Proposal for rising fines, points for higher speeds

http://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1211/1016431-cabinet/

The Cabinet will today consider legislation that would introduce new fines for motorists caught speeding.

Minister for Transport Shane Ross will bring a memo to Government on the new Road Traffic Bill.

The legislation will change the fines motorists pay when they are found to be driving over the speed limit.

It would mean that speeding would no longer be viewed as a single offence.

Instead, those driving up to 10km/h above the speed limit could pay a fine of €80 and receive between three and five penalty points.

If you drive up to 20km/h over the allowed speed there would be a €150 fine and between four and six points placed on your licence.

Motorists driving between 20km/h and 30km/h over the speed limit will be hit with a €200 fine and up to seven penalty points.

Anyone driving in excess of 30km/h above the speed limits will be charged with dangerous driving.

Dravokivich

Its just for appearances. It won't change the rotten behaviour of a lot of people on the road regardless of the enforcement. There's plenty of drivers who think speed limits don't apply when they can see any gap between them and the bumper in front.

Macy0161

Speeding is endemic in this state. But, like his drink driving changes, this is all for show without a big bump in enforcement.

Auguste Comte

We don't need any more laws we have plenty, they just need to be enforced.

New laws that won't be enforced are as useless as the minister proposing them.

cdaly_

OTOH, at some point we'll get enforcement and they'll be ready...

Bray Head

Macy0161 wrote: »

Speeding is endemic in this state.

Not really. I've driven all over Europe and adherence to speed limits in Ireland is taken very seriously.

In many countries you don't get points at all for the first 15 km/h, just a fine.

Ireland is already pretty stringent in seeing you lose your licence for driving at 67km/h four times on a 60km/h stretch of dual carriageway.

magicbastarder

Bray Head wrote: »

Ireland is already pretty stringent in seeing you lose your licence for driving at 67km/h four times on a 60km/h stretch of dual carriageway.

you're joking, yes?
or are you talking about theory rather than actual practice?

Macy0161

Bray Head wrote: »

Not really. I've driven all over Europe and adherence to speed limits in Ireland is taken very seriously.

In many countries you don't get points at all for the first 15 km/h, just a fine.

Ireland is already pretty stringent in seeing you lose your licence for driving at 67km/h four times on a 60km/h stretch of dual carriageway.

Penalties maybe there, enforcement isn't, and aherence isn't.

Isambard

It seems to me that most people actually drive under the limit . You can test this yourself by comparing the number of vehicles you pass with the number that pass you. I stick pretty exactly to the speed limits as per my satnav and pass dozens of cars whilst maybe only a handful pass me. Many of those passing me are only marginally over the limit and a sliding scale would penalise the others that hammer past me whilst being a wake up call for marginal speeders..

kippy

I think this is completely pointless.
All it does is add an added layer (or two) or complexity for absolutely all involved.
Makes the chances of messing up paperwork/legal challenge etc far easier.

As others have said, we have adequate rules and regulations governing speeding as it stands. But appropriate enforcement is where the issues lie.

kippy

kippy wrote: »

All it does is add an added layer (or two) or complexity for absolutely all involved.
Makes the chances of messing up paperwork/legal challenge etc far easier.

If anything it does the opposite in that it removes subjective assessment of the crime and risk i.e. regardless of the road, or the limit, if you are over the limit by X then Y applies. It really can't be much simpler while increasing the penalty based on the stupidity of the driver involved.

kippy

Deleted User wrote: »

If anything it does the opposite in that it removes subjective assessment of the crime and risk i.e. regardless of the road, or the limit, if you are over the limit by X then Y applies. It really can't be much simpler while increasing the penalty based on the stupidity of the driver involved.

That's all well and good till you try implement it.

Much easier, 80% of people who break the advised speed limit get caught, than 5% of people who break the advised speed limit with varying degrees of punishment get caught.

Infini

Bray Head wrote: »

Not really. I've driven all over Europe and adherence to speed limits in Ireland is taken very seriously.

In many countries you don't get points at all for the first 15 km/h, just a fine.

Ireland is already pretty stringent in seeing you lose your licence for driving at 67km/h four times on a 60km/h stretch of dual carriageway.

Honestly this would be better the points system should be for dangerous drivers but not punitive for going over the limit slightly.

ohnonotgmail

Should the proposed changes not use the percentage over the limit instead?

kippy

kippy wrote: »

That's all well and good till you try implement it.

Much easier, 80% of people who break the advised speed limit get caught, than 5% of people who break the advised speed limit with varying degrees of punishment get caught.

Please elaborate on how to implement that in a way that is feasible, logical, balanced and economical

mickdw

Will they be able to make a dangerous driving charge stick though.
Take an example of someone doing 111 km per hour on an empty dual carriageway with an 80 limit, speeding fine yes, points ok but dangerous driving is a farce.
80 km in a 50 outside a school would be a different scenario but they are not making the distinction.
This won't be supported in government. Watered down proposal on the way I'd say.
In my opinion, the first 15 km/h over the the 80 100 and 120 limits should be fine only with current points levels remaining for higher speeds.
Dangerous driving be discretionary.

whisky_galore

Window dressing from the most useless minister for transport to date.

Victor

mickdw wrote: »

Take an example of someone doing 111 km per hour on an empty dual carriageway with an 80 limit, speeding fine yes, points ok but dangerous driving is a farce.

Most dual carriageways with an 80km/h limit are suburban (with many junctions or private accesses), tunnels or toll plazas. Not places where you should be doing 111km/h.

Irish Steve

If there are going to be punitive actions taken, then it is incumbent on the County Councils to get the signage right, I can think of a number of roads around this area where the posted limit varies depending on which direction you enter the road from. There are also some roads that have completely inappropriate limits on them, but that's probably a subject for another thread.

If they want to get really picky, then as far as I am concerned, exceeding the limit (regardless of what it is) within 200 meters of a school during term time and school hours should result in a doubling of the relevant fine, as should all illegal parking within the school limit. Ideally, the limit during term time and school hours should be 30 Kph0000, but that would require some intelligent speed limit signs to be installed.

mickdw

Most but not all. There are numerous cases of badly classified roads so my point stands and that is that I can see great difficulty if making a dangerous driving charge stick in front of a judge where a driver was doing 111 km/hr in what could be deemed to be ideal conditions. Dry road, quiet road, excellent visibility etc.
Indeed if we take your example of an 80 km/hr dual carriageway where there are lots of local access etc, that is a legal limit of 80 allowable on a dark wet crowded road in a car that meets minimum standards. To suggest that 111 on the same road on a dry day with quiet traffic in a good car is dangerous driving is ludicrous.
I don't argue with someone getting points in that scenario but a dangerous driving conviction is very significant and shouldn't be cheapened by automatically applying that charge accord the board once a set of numbers are exceeded.

magicbastarder

mickdw wrote: »

I can see great difficulty if making a dangerous driving charge stick in front of a judge where a driver was doing 111 km/hr in what could be deemed to be ideal conditions. Dry road, quiet road, excellent visibility etc.

you mean nothing to distract the driver from the fact that he or she is exceeding the speed limit by a factor of nearly 40%?
if a driver is driving in these conditions at that speed, there are two explanations:
1) they don't realise.
or 2) they don't care.
either position cannot be defended.

Doyler365

People driving far too slow on our roads is worse than speeding. Causes tail backs and has people driving too close together to pass the offending person out

Red Alert

It’s overly punitive. Needs to start with one point and work upwards, not starting with the big hammer of 3 points. The RSA and the biased extreme road safety campaigners who seem to have Ross under their influence need to be put back in their box.

mickdw

magicbastarder wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

I can see great difficulty if making a dangerous driving charge stick in front of a judge where a driver was doing 111 km/hr in what could be deemed to be ideal conditions. Dry road, quiet road, excellent visibility etc.

you mean nothing to distract the driver from the fact that he or she is exceeding the speed limit by a factor of nearly 40%?
if a driver is driving in these conditions at that speed, there are two explanations:
1) they don't realise.
or 2) they don't care.
either position cannot be defended.

Yes either they don't realise or don't care however as I said, I agree with points and or fine but is it dangerous driving?
There is a lesser offence or driving without due care and attention and to skip past that one straight to dangerous driving is going to be troublesome imo.
If this proposal did get through, it would be a bad day for motorists but it won't come into law in it's current form.

Victor

Irish Steve wrote: »

If there are going to be punitive actions taken, then it is incumbent on the County Councils to get the signage right, I can think of a number of roads around this area where the posted limit varies depending on which direction you enter the road from. There are also some roads that have completely inappropriate limits on them, but that's probably a subject for another thread.

Report these instances to the council.

magicbastarder

mickdw wrote: »

Yes either they don't realise or don't care however as I said, I agree with points and or fine but is it dangerous driving?

if they're being that inattentive, or that careless, is it a moot debate about whether it's dangerous?

Dravokivich

Irish Steve wrote: »

If there are going to be punitive actions taken, then it is incumbent on the County Councils to get the signage right, I can think of a number of roads around this area where the posted limit varies depending on which direction you enter the road from. There are also some roads that have completely inappropriate limits on them, but that's probably a subject for another thread.

Roads here can have different speed limits when going in different directions. N7 around Newlands being an example. Going outbound after Red Cow, it's 80, over Newlands Cross, it's 100. Going inbound over Newlands Cross it's 80. lead up to Red Cow it's 60.

Irish Steve wrote: »

If they want to get really picky, then as far as I am concerned, exceeding the limit (regardless of what it is) within 200 meters of a school during term time and school hours should result in a doubling of the relevant fine, as should all illegal parking within the school limit. Ideally, the limit during term time and school hours should be 30 Kph0000, but that would require some intelligent speed limit signs to be installed.

I've seen those variable speed signs at schools in Clondalkin and Chapelizod. ROTR also reference them. You're arguing for something that's already in place? Even driving through country roads, speed limits are noticably reduced around schools, going down from 80 to 50. Or do you think that's not enough? The people who couldn't car less, won't care more with increased signage or more variable speed limit signs. They should just have their points run up and be taken off the road.

Duckjob

Irish Steve wrote: »

If they want to get really picky, then as far as I am concerned, exceeding the limit (regardless of what it is) within 200 meters of a school during term time and school hours should result in a doubling of the relevant fine, as should all illegal parking within the school limit. Ideally, the limit during term time and school hours should be 30 Kph0000, but that would require some intelligent speed limit signs to be installed.

Why does it have to be complicated by term time / school hours. What is there's an evening event on in the school? Or even just kids walking to /from school grounds for extra curricular activities?

The time difference between driving a km at 50kph and driving it at 30kph is about 45 seconds or so.

Is it too much to ask people to slow the f down to 30kph for a km or so, regardless of the time of day or night, and show a bit of citizenship and respect for the safetly of their communities ?

Irish Steve

Dravokivich wrote: »

Roads here can have different speed limits when going in different directions. N7 around Newlands being an example. Going outbound after Red Cow, it's 80, over Newlands Cross, it's 100. Going inbound over Newlands Cross it's 80. lead up to Red Cow it's 60.

That's dual carriageway, and I'm aware of it. The roads I'm thinking of are around my area, and single track roads, so no central median, I can't see any logic that the road can be one speed going (say) North, and a different speed going South. That's illogical even by Irish Standards.

I've seen those variable speed signs at schools in Clondalkin and Chapelizod. ROTR also reference them. You're arguing for something that's already in place? Even driving through country roads, speed limits are noticably reduced around schools, going down from 80 to 50. Or do you think that's not enough? The people who couldn't car less, won't care more with increased signage or more variable speed limit signs. They should just have their points run up and be taken off the road.

They might be in place in some areas, the perfect solution would be to have them in place at all schools, and yes, ideally, given all the discussions about the reduction in injuries at 30 kph, I'd like to see 30 in place, but given the problems it would cause in rural areas on higher speed roads, the proper solution would be for the signs to be controlled from the school (using something like smart phone connection to the devices) to allow them to be activated when the premises are in use, regardless of the time of day, so if they are on, it means there is something happening NOW.

That should get more respect than a blanket 24/7/365 limit that is realistically only needed for a maximum of 3 hours a day, 5 days a week and for about 8 months of the year, and even more so if the fines/points are doubled for ignoring them.

There is no need to slow traffic dramatically on a rural road for the 3 months of the summer when the place is closed up and not in use, so yes, selective speed limits is the best idea of them all, and 30 has been proved to be appropriate where there are high numbers of children.

And yes, there are plenty of morons who don't care that they are around a school, so making it even more costly in terms of points and fines might help them get the message, and yes, if they don't, then they will be off the road even sooner. Win Win.

A 30 speed limit close to the school might also persuade some parents that walking to school with the kids is quicker than putting them in the car.

PanhardPL

Red Alert wrote: »

It’s overly punitive. Needs to start with one point and work upwards, not starting with the big hammer of 3 points. The RSA and the biased extreme road safety campaigners who seem to have Ross under their influence need to be put back in their box.

Ross and the RSA should take a look at the way they manage speeding in Spain,
Speeding Fines in Spain (1).jpg

Victor

Irish Steve wrote: »

That's dual carriageway, and I'm aware of it. The roads I'm thinking of are around my area, and single track roads, so no central median, I can't see any logic that the road can be one speed going (say) North, and a different speed going South. That's illogical even by Irish Standards.

Approaching a junction could have a lower speed limit than going away from the junction.

PanhardPL wrote: »

Ross and the RSA should take a look at the way they manage speeding in Spain,
Speeding Fines in Spain (1).jpg

Do you have the original source, so I can see what note 3 is?