Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Penn

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

I suspect that the line will not be that Schumer bamboozled Trump into accepting responsibility for any shutdown, it will be that shut downs are great, we've always loved great shut downs and this is the greatest shutdown. You can thank the great president Trump for this great shutdown that is doing great thing for American families. Followed by a 5% bump in the polls among Republican voters.

I see it more going along the lines of Trump saying that he never said he'd take responsibility for shutting down the government, but rather he meant he'd have to shut down the government because the Dems won't pay agree funding for the wall, so really it's the Dems who are to blame for making Trump have to shut down the government.

Tell me how

check_six wrote: »

What I find even more peculiar is that if a president was kicked out the door due to all these type of shenanigans, their party would still hold the reins of power. Ultimately, there appears to be no penalty whatsoever for subverting a democratic election. You could put in a puppet as your president and even if all the dirt comes out in the wash, and the puppet is kicked out, your backup guys will take over, and you are still in charge. I think that the other democracies I am familiar with would at least be expected to hold another election at this point.
When the expected norms of behaviour go out the window, the US system does not seem to be able to cope at all.

And it is hard to see it changing as each side would be so afraid of something happening which would reduce their likelihood of gaining or holding power.

They have created a monster with their two party system.

Professor Moriarty

Tell me how wrote: »

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And it is hard to see it changing as each side would be so afraid of something happening which would reduce their likelihood of gaining or holding power.

They have created a monster with their two party system.

There is another country where this has happened. Can't quite put my finger on the name right now...

everlast75

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I read an article earlier that put forward the argument that Trump "won" yesterday



I guess I see where that view is coming from , but only in terms of how a hard-core , Trump rally attendee type might view it..

Everybody else.. Not so much.

Forgive the unparliamentary language, but it appears to me that in essence what that article is saying is that you can, after all, polish a turd.

duploelabs

Leroy42 wrote: »

Oh, I don't think anyone advised him to do it. This is a tactic he has used lots of times before, he has even tried it on foreign leaders when they sit there. The difference is that he was over confident, and probably thought that it was in his favour as 2v2 but he was better than the rest.

His first problem, as Nancy pointed out, was that this was political and he is very far from an accomplished politician and he was dealing with two very competent Dems. The second was the his 2nd, Pence, was not even a factor. In fact, his demeanour betrayed his real thinking on how it was going.

I fully believe that Trump thought this was a great idea, get the Dems out from behind their podiums, into the 'real' world of the TV cameras and the press, where he, he believes, is king. He would force them to give into his wall, in front of the nations TV cameras. Not only would he get his funding, but he would embarrass the top two dems and prove just how brilliant he actually is.

It backfired completely and it now looks like a child being 'controlled' by the grown ups whilst having a tantrum. The fact that he then took full ownership of any shutdown gives 100% control to the Dems. They can pretty much demand anything and if Trump refuses, and the government shuts down, it is all of him.

I bet they can't believe how great it went for them.

I think Pence's 'elf on a shelf' impression during that TV appearance was most telling regarding what the republicans think of Trump. Whatever you think of his opinions, Pence knows that what's said (or not said in his case) can speak volumes

pixelburp

Oh I don't doubt for a second Pence saw the immediate future and knew the best course of action was to keep his council. I'd have to re-watch the video - and I really don't want to go through those cringe inducing 20 minutes again - but I'm pretty sure Trump at one point looked across to Pence for validation / support, receiving silence in return. Hard not to see that as the VP hanging the President out to dry there.

Few enough modern politicians are talented in the art of ad-libbing as it stands, and Pence doesn't strike as the kind of man who could keep up with Trumps stream of consciousness anyway.

serfboard

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-10/donald-trump-owns-this-stock-market

That's a great article. Here's some quotes from it:

Barry Ritholtz wrote:

It wasn’t smart to dump a dovish Fed chief, run up the deficit, and start a trade war. Trump did all three.

Barry Ritholtz wrote:

Higher interest rates: Trump replaced Janet Yellen, a dovish Federal Reserve chief (whose policies he liked), with hawkish Jerome Powell, whose policies he dislikes.

And on that point, this one is glorious:

Barry Ritholtz wrote:

We have since found out that he did not re-appoint Yellen because he felt that, at 5-foot, 3-inches, she was “too short” to run the central bank.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I read an article earlier that put forward the argument that Trump "won" yesterday

Politicians often promise to drive a tough bargain (when rallying their base before an election), only to engage in conciliatory rhetoric when face to face with an adversary.

Let's see. Remember this:

Donald Trump wrote:

I don't see how it would be Russia

Said when face-to-face with Valdimir Putin, versus this:

Donald Trump wrote:

I don't see how it wouldn't be Russia

Bravely clarified when he was safely back in the White House.

pixelburp

So apparently Trump raged after the Pelosi/Schumer meeting; he wanted / was expecting a happy photo-op. 'Stormed' out of the Oval Office, and threw papers across the room in a fit of pique.

And it bares repeating: this is the apparent consummate businessman who'd show Putin, North Korea, Iran et al what's what & put them in their place.

https://twitter.com/hardball/status/1072645340212445184

everlast75

A guest on Laurence last night made a great point.

Trump is not interested in building a wall - he could simply trade something with the Dems to get it. I'm pretty sure they offered 25m if he sorted DACA and he refused that in the past.

He is moreover interested in having a fight about it. It is what mobilises his base. This fits in with what was said before, in terms of the "performance" being the important part of the meeting.

Stallingrad

The astonishing thing is that this is the first time in two years I have seen him have to deal with robust discourse (and Pelosi and Schumer were going easy on him, even giving him an out 'Lets do this in private.') and he looked so out of his depth, and within minutes he has boxed himself into a 'Shutdown' corner. Unbelievable.

I've said it before, a lifetime of 'yes' men and entitlement means he simply does not have the tools to deal with any kind of challenge.

As for Pence, staying mute and biding his time.

PropJoe10

Stallingrad wrote: »

The astonishing thing is that this is the first time in two years I have seen him have to deal with robust discourse (and Pelosi and Schumer were going easy on him, even giving him an out 'Lets do this in private.') and he looked so out of his depth, and within minutes he has boxed himself into a 'Shutdown' corner. Unbelievable.

I've said it before, a lifetime of 'yes' men and entitlement means he simply does not have the tools to deal with any kind of challenge.

As for Pence, staying mute and biding his time.

Quite agree with this - 72 years of getting your own way isn't exactly good training for diplomacy and negotiation. He'll never have had anyone say "no Donald, that's not a good idea" or "no, you can't do that". He is what he is, and won't change now.


As for Pence, I think he's got his eyes firmly on the Republican nomination in 2020.

pixelburp

Trump is entering a new phase in his fledging political career: consequences. Not in the Mueller Inquiry sense, but in the commonality of political leaders having to stand by the decisions & results (or lack thereof) throughout his Presidency; effectively needing to stand in front of an electorate and plead to have ones job back.

IE, Trump will be under siege, no matter how hard he blusters. He's no longer the hurler on the ditch, able to pitch easy answers with aggressive, anti-establishment soundbites. Once again he's out of his depth and in unfamiliar territory, where once he could just bully his way as CEO. As I said, I think this argument with Schumer is a taster for 2020: I can't abide Schumer at all, yet he played Trump like a fiddle. Polite smiling, looking to the camera, and speaking at Trump with enough directness to let his opponent talk himself into a corner.

everlast75

I see trump is using the latest attack in France to peddle his wall agenda.

For a guy who says absolutely nothing when it comes to multiple home grown terrorist attacks, including one he actively encouraged.....

Donald Trump

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

I suspect that the line will not be that Schumer bamboozled Trump into accepting responsibility for any shutdown, it will be that shut downs are great, we've always loved great shut downs and this is the greatest shutdown. You can thank the great president Trump for this great shutdown that is doing great thing for American families. Followed by a 5% bump in the polls among Republican voters.

Shutdowns are great. Duh. Evil big government. Against the American dream. This paying salaries for government workers to provide a service is a cod. Hoooo-rah

everlast75

Cohen's sentencing hearing is going on now.

The SDNY should have simply played the tape of his call to the reporter containing the threat "What I will do to you, will be ****ing disgusting" and let the judge take it from there.

Professor Moriarty

Cohen in court:

"Recently the president tweeted a statement calling me weak and it was correct but for a much different reason than he was implying. It was because time and time again I felt it was my duty to cover up his dirty deeds"

Miaow!

Tell me how

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Cohen in court:

"Recently the president tweeted a statement calling me weak and it was correct but for a much different reason than he was implying. It was because time and time again I felt it was my duty to cover up his dirty deeds"

Miaow!

And like watching a tennis match, everyone collectively turns their head to see how Trump reacts to this.

Professor Moriarty

Tell me how wrote: »

And like watching a tennis match, everyone collectively turns their head to see how Trump reacts to this.

I suppose a pardon for Cohen is a little less likely now.

Professor Moriarty

Three years for Cohen.

circadian

I suspect the hammer is going to drop on Don Jr very soon.

PropJoe10

Don Jr will be next I'd say yeah.

duploelabs

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Don Jr will be next I'd say yeah.

'Crack like an egg' springs to mind

theguzman

Presidential Pardon?

PropJoe10

theguzman wrote: »

Presidential Pardon?

For Cohen or Don Jr? Can't see Cohen getting one at this stage!

jobbridge4life

theguzman wrote: »

Presidential Pardon?

Ah yes, isn't this the essence of the American Dream? Grifting your way to the top so you can pardon your large simple son.

If Americans stand the pardoning of the President's son, by that President, they are without hope of non-violent restoration.

jobbridge4life

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

I suspect that the line will not be that Schumer bamboozled Trump into accepting responsibility for any shutdown, it will be that shut downs are great, we've always loved great shut downs and this is the greatest shutdown. You can thank the great president Trump for this great shutdown that is doing great thing for American families. Followed by a 5% bump in the polls among Republican voters.

100% this.

One of the most fascinating/disturbing things about Trump is how he exposed the willingness of the huge majority of Republican supporters to literally flip flop 180 degrees on their previous supposedly dogmatic beliefs, favorability towards Russia and objection to free trade being the prime examples.

serfboard

From NBC News:

NBC News wrote:

The charges Cohen pleaded guilty to:

Charges brought by the Southern District:

Count 1-5: Evasion of assessment of income tax liability for pleading guilty to failing to report more than $4 million in income from 2012 through 2016.

Counts 6: False statements to a bank for Cohen pleading guilty to understating debt from his taxi medallion business in the process of applying for a home equity line of credit with a bank.

Count 7: Causing an unlawful corporation contribution for when he pleaded guilty to orchestrating a payment made by American Media to Karen McDougal for her “limited life story”, an allegation that she had an affair with Donald Trump.

Count 8: Excessive campaign contribution for when he pleaded guilty to making an excessive political contribution when he paid adult film actress Stephanie Clifford aka Stormy Daniels $130,000 for her story and silence about Clifford’s alleged affair with Donald Trump.

Charge brought by Robert Mueller

Count 1: False statements to Congress for when Cohen pleaded guilty to making false statements to Congress on Aug. 28, 2017, when he sent a two-page letter to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence as well as during testimony before Congress.

From Anthony Zurcher of the BBC, a person who always gives a good analyis:

Anthony Zurcher wrote:

Mr Trump's business dealings, not Russian election meddling, could present a greater legal threat to the president.

According to Mr Cohen's lawyer, his client had the "misfortune" of being the president's personal lawyer, business partner and all-around fixer for more than a decade. When investigators began digging into his actions, they uncovered a variety of chargeable crimes.

By all accounts, Mr Trump's larger business empire is getting similar scrutiny. His long-time accountant is co-operating with investigators.

As I said previously, Donald Trump will rue the day he became President, and opened himself up to all this scrutiny.

Penn

American Media Inc. have now apparently struck a deal with the SDNY and admitted that they bought and buried the McDougal story for the purposes of influencing the election.

So now its not just Cohen's testimony about it.

Cohens lawyer has also said that once the Mueller Investigation is finished, Cohen will reveal a lot more info about Trump.

Leroy42

Penn wrote: »

American Media Inc. have now apparently struck a deal with the SDNY and admitted that they bought and buried the McDougal story for the purposes of influencing the election.

So now its not just Cohen's testimony about it.

Cohens lawyer has also said that once the Mueller Investigation is finished, Cohen will reveal a lot more info about Trump.

It was never just Cohen's testimony, that is simply the line trotted out by Trump and Guiliani to try to discredit the whole thing.

No prosecutor walks into a court with nothing but the evidence of a known liar. There has to be something else. They would have found the paper trial from the raid on Cohen offices.

And are we supposed to believe that Cohen simply turned without any pressure? HE simply had a Paul to Damascus conversion? No. He was faced with the evidence and had nowhere left to turn.

Whilst he may be upset at 3 years, the alternative, no cooperating, would have led to far far worse. You can bet there is a plethora or other crimes that they simply ignored as part of the deal.

ECO_Mental

In other funny news if you Google "idiot" normally you would get a few images of Trump...well because he is! But Google were testifying yesterday and the good old GOP are up in arms because of this and the Google exc had to explain why this happens. ANYWAY now if you Google idiot it's all Trump