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DB fare increase

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    #152
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    markpb wrote: »
    If that was the case, everyone would use that loophole to work around the law. I could be wrong but I doubt the people who draft EU laws are completely incompetent!


    and yet the leap fare is less than the cash fare and has been for quite some time. Odd.


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    #153
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    and yet the leap fare is less than the cash fare and has been for quite some time. Odd.

    I didn’t say the law existed, just that if it did exist, it wouldn’t be as trivial to avoid as a previous poster suggested.


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    #154
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭howiya


    markpb wrote: »
    I don’t think you understand how Leap works at all! The operating cost of Leap does not go to Payzone. It goes to DXC (previously HP Enterprise) who operate the back end software, maintain the website, staff the call centre, liaise with the NTA, provide the financial settlement and reconciliation and other stuff. There’s another contract for operating the taxsaver scheme, I presume the operators have to contribute to that too. There also an ongoing hardware replacement cost as well, I’m not sure if that’s included in the 8.45m you mentioned.

    Payzone are only responsible for the retail sales and online card acceptance and if you think they earned almost 9m from doing that, I’d love to have some of what you’re smoking!



    Where did you get those figures? They sound a little optimistic to me. When they move to EMV, there will still be a back office, still be a call centre, still be a retail channel, still be a website, still need staff to mange the finances and you can be sure the banks will continue to charge MSC on the card transactions. There will also be a financial risk for declined transactions or disputed transactions, someone will have to pay for that.

    I never said it all went to payzone but it's an example of money going out of the system. Any savings though would hopefully be reinvested in additional services.

    The 15-20% is a conservative estimate based on the reduction in fare collection costs as a percentage of revenue that TFL have experienced. Down from 15p in the pound to 9p in the pound.

    https://www.theguardian.com/government-computing-network/2012/jan/26/transport-for-london-oyster-contactless

    https://www.mastercard.us/content/dam/mccom/en-us/documents/transport-for-london-case-study-april-2017.pdf

    http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-160203-item05-commissioners-report-v2.pdf
    (page 34)


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    #155
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Leap is double the work. Nothing "smart" about having to queue twice. I will never get one as I doubt I will need one but if they insist on going cashless then a book of single journey tickets should be made available.

    Say 10 in a book and you could keep one or two handy should you need to use public transport but don't have a Leap card.

    Bit like the old card tickets DB once sold in Spars etc.. But thats too much of an old fashioned idea as it is simple and does not involve "tech".

    What's the point on having a book of 10 paper tickets when you can just top up a Leap Card by €15 or €20 and likely get about ten journies with that not including daily capping either. I couldn't see that being very popular also the old DB paper tickets were stamped in a validator and likely would be able to be read on a smart card validator.

    I find a lot of people paying cash are slow unfamiliar with the city tourists perhaps and don't have the correct fare ready to hand and start rooting around their purse or wallet for change holding up the whole bus. I rarely find there is a queue of people in my local shop topping up leap cards but that's not to be said they can't be done at more locations such as online, on the app or topped up at Luas or IE tvms which since the introduction of Luas CC are now fare more prominent around the city centre.


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    #156
    Busman Paddy Lasty
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    bk wrote: »
    That is a strange one, the moves being made by the NTA around ticketing would more indicate movement towards a flat fare (or short + flat).


    Unless by tag-off, they mean tag-off just for the short fare and otherwise a flat fare (tag-on) for the 90 minute.

    It would seem silly to just have two fares, short and 90 and force both tag-on and tag-off for both.

    Perhaps they are still undecided, though the moves over the last few years certainly seem to be going in this direction.


    Moving towards 90 minute (flat fare) and maybe a short hop must surely be way forward now that Bus Connects is in the pipeline. At this point the fare structure should be designed to reduce driver interaction or even eliminate altogether.

    Easier said than done but with everyone just tagging on and exiting the rear doors, change to Bus Connects would be less of a leap.


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    #157
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭daheff


    markpb wrote: »
    I didn’t say the law existed, just that if it did exist, it wouldn’t be as trivial to avoid as a previous poster suggested.

    unfortunately it seems it is.


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    #158
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Given that London Bus has gone completely cashless (supporting only Oyster or contactless payments) clearly there is no EU law against this:

    https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses

    And it makes sense, since buses in the likes of Germany, etc. have been cashless for decades.


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    #159
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    bk wrote: »
    Given that London Bus has gone completely cashless (supporting only Oyster or contactless payments) clearly there is no EU law against this:

    https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses

    And it makes sense, since buses in the likes of Germany, etc. have been cashless for decades.

    Where in Germany has cashless buses?


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    #160
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    What's the point on having a book of 10 paper tickets when you can just top up a Leap Card by €15 or €20 and likely get about ten journies with that not including daily capping either. I couldn't see that being very popular also the old DB paper tickets were stamped in a validator and likely would be able to be read on a smart card validator.

    I find a lot of people paying cash are slow unfamiliar with the city tourists perhaps and don't have the correct fare ready to hand and start rooting around their purse or wallet for change holding up the whole bus. I rarely find there is a queue of people in my local shop topping up leap cards but that's not to be said they can't be done at more locations such as online, on the app or topped up at Luas or IE tvms which since the introduction of Luas CC are now fare more prominent around the city centre.

    The point of a book of single use tickets is...

    You don't have a leap card. You are out in the sticks. No shops. But there is a bus.

    Wait! Book of tickets! I can get the bus and not a taxi!

    Everyone seems to only think about the 9-5 commuter. Said this again and again.

    And not everyone can afford €20 sitting on a card.

    The single use tickets would be the same RF cards we use for work, etc. 20c a pop.


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    #161
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The point of a book of single use tickets is...

    You don't have a leap card. You are out in the sticks. No shops. But there is a bus.

    Wait! Book of tickets! I can get the bus and not a taxi!

    How did you buy the book of tickets if there's no shop?

    Why can someone afford to have a book of tickets lying around but can't afford to have a leap card with cash lying around?

    What has 9-5 commuters got to do with anything? Most payzone agents are open 7am to 9pm or longer.


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    #162
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The point of a book of single use tickets is...

    You don't have a leap card. You are out in the sticks. No shops. But there is a bus.

    Wait! Book of tickets! I can get the bus and not a taxi!

    Everyone seems to only think about the 9-5 commuter. Said this again and again.

    And not everyone can afford €20 sitting on a card.

    The single use tickets would be the same RF cards we use for work, etc. 20c a pop.

    What are you on about....


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    #163
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The point of a book of single use tickets is...

    You don't have a leap card. You are out in the sticks. No shops. But there is a bus.

    Wait! Book of tickets! I can get the bus and not a taxi!

    Everyone seems to only think about the 9-5 commuter. Said this again and again.

    And not everyone can afford €20 sitting on a card.

    The single use tickets would be the same RF cards we use for work, etc. 20c a pop.

    Again how come they can get a book of tickets but not a Leap card. Would 10 tickets not cost the same as €20 on a leap.


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    #164
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The point of a book of single use tickets is...

    You don't have a leap card. You are out in the sticks. No shops. But there is a bus.

    Wait! Book of tickets! I can get the bus and not a taxi!

    Everyone seems to only think about the 9-5 commuter. Said this again and again.

    And not everyone can afford €20 sitting on a card.

    The single use tickets would be the same RF cards we use for work, etc. 20c a pop.
    You don't need to have €20 sitting on it, the minimum top up is €5 and a positive balance will get you to where you are going.


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    #165
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Again how come they can get a book of tickets but not a Leap card. Would 10 tickets not cost the same as €20 on a leap.

    Id expect 10 tickets to cost more. I don't think he realises it historically limited the operators it can be used on though.


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    #166
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The point of a book of single use tickets is...

    You don't have a leap card. You are out in the sticks. No shops. But there is a bus.

    Wait! Book of tickets! I can get the bus and not a taxi!

    Everyone seems to only think about the 9-5 commuter. Said this again and again.

    And not everyone can afford €20 sitting on a card.

    The single use tickets would be the same RF cards we use for work, etc. 20c a pop.

    Leap is a national project. So rush hour commuting isn't really the concern. The fare capping system was set up to encourage additional public transport use over the weekend.


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    #167
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    The fare capping system was set up to encourage additional public transport use over the weekend.

    Definitely works too.


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    #168
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    And not everyone can afford €20 sitting on a card.

    But they can afford a €20 book of tickets?

    Your arguments there are the most nonsensical I have ever seen.

    Single use tickets are not coming back as they are completely and utterly pointless.


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    #169
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    SL TEN wrote: »
    I understand alot of people don't like what I'm posting and that's ok but I would really appreciate if they didn't make up stories and tell other people I'm saying things when I'm clearly not. I would also appreciate the toxic messages and threats to stop.

    Are Dublin Bus perfect?? Hell No! But they don't deserve what the NTA and Government are putting them through. And I'm only trying to look out for the Drivers and make sure their name isn't dragged through the mud.

    I have argued with DB drivers as well because they think all this will just go away without them doing anything!

    It will go away but only when the NTA and Government have u all out of jobs and when Go Ahead are the new DB !!

    Thing is nobody will do anything until there's God Forbid a tragic crash involving Go Ahead.

    The majority of their management is under 27 they do not Vet their drivers there's no 12 week review! What part of that do u think is right???

    DB's hands are tied not one of them lads can do anything including their management.

    It's up to us THE PUBLIC the people who get on Dublin busses everyday to make a stand and do what's right! And that's to stop the PRIVATIZATION OF DUBLIN BUS!

    Get up off your asses and stop waiting for other people to save a company that's been getting u around for the last 30 odd years!

    PLEASE SHARE

    AND LET THE GOVERNMENT AND THE NTA KNOW THEY'RE NOT PUSHING DUB BUS OUT!

    This is your first post on this thread. Have you accidentally posted from the wrong account?


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    #170
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    markpb wrote: »
    How did you buy the book of tickets if there's no shop?

    Why can someone afford to have a book of tickets lying around but can't afford to have a leap card with cash lying around?

    What has 9-5 commuters got to do with anything? Most payzone agents are open 7am to 9pm or longer.

    Sigh.. You buy them in advance. That is the point. Just like the pre paid tickets my company uses for the Enterprise.

    Use one when you need it. Leap only works for the 9-5 minions.

    If DB goes cashless, they will lose the last minute market. No leap = taxi!

    Pre-paid, single journey tickets have a market.

    It will become inevitable that leap cards will require a minimum regular top-up in the future so its wasted money if you take 4 trips a month at most.


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    #171
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You are describing a Leap card - buy in advance, use when you need it.

    The "last minute market" won't have your book of tickets either

    You then just go and blatantly lie to try justify your odd desire


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    #172
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Sigh.. You buy them in advance. That is the point. Just like the pre paid tickets my company uses for the Enterprise.

    Use one when you need it. Leap only works for the 9-5 minions.

    If DB goes cashless, they will lose the last minute market. No leap = taxi!

    Pre-paid, single journey tickets have a market.

    It will become inevitable that leap cards will require a minimum regular top-up in the future so its wasted money if you take 4 trips a month at most.

    Also if contactless starts being accepted that won't be a problem for most people.


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    #173
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Sigh.. You buy them in advance. That is the point. Just like the pre paid tickets my company uses for the Enterprise.

    Use one when you need it. Leap only works for the 9-5 minions.

    If DB goes cashless, they will lose the last minute market. No leap = taxi!

    Pre-paid, single journey tickets have a market.

    It will become inevitable that leap cards will require a minimum regular top-up in the future so its wasted money if you take 4 trips a month at most.


    How is this inevitable and what reason makes it so?


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    #174
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Use one when you need it. Leap only works for the 9-5 minions.

    The rest of your post is silly but let's focus on this gem, shall we? Why does Leap only suit people who work 9-5? Are they made of Cinderella parts and stop working at 5:30pm? Do the shops stop topping them up? Do you live somewhere with no shops and/or no electricity?


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    #175
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Also if contactless starts being accepted that won't be a problem for most people.

    Contactless would be fine if the fare is the same as leap.


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    #176
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    How is this inevitable and what reason makes it so?

    Ever bought a gift card in a store or shopping centre? Use it or loose it.

    If 100% leap is enforced, it will go the same way.

    A Oneforall gift card will drop in value by €1.45 per month if its unused. Most other prepaid cards are the same.


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    #177
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    markpb wrote: »
    The rest of your post is silly but let's focus on this gem, shall we? Why does Leap only suit people who work 9-5? Are they made of Cinderella parts and stop working at 5:30pm? Do the shops stop topping them up? Do you live somewhere with no shops and/or no electricity?

    The 9-5 is a term for commuters. Dolly??

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UbxUSsFXYo4


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    #178
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    L1011 wrote: »
    You are describing a Leap card - buy in advance, use when you need it.

    The "last minute market" won't have your book of tickets either

    You then just go and blatantly lie to try justify your odd desire

    Leap is not single use though. That is the point. A single use ticket can be thrown in the bin afterwards.

    A single use card/ticket would say "This is valid for one journey only" etc

    And what am I lying about?

    Sorry for the multiple replies. I am posting from a Flintstones tablet and can't multiquote.


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    #179
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Leap is not single use though. That is the point. A single use ticket can be thrown in the bin afterwards.

    A single use card/ticket would say "This is valid for one journey only" etc

    And what am I lying about?

    Sorry for the multiple replies. I am posting from a Flintstones tablet and can't multiquote.

    So Leap is more useful than your fantasy ticket

    You are lying about minimum charges. They are never going to happen. Gift cards have credit card numbers which cost money for the operator to keep active when no such equivalent exists here


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    #180
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Contactless would be fine if the fare is the same as leap.

    It is London so it would likely be the same here. That's the plan anyway that when buses go cashless contactless payments will start being accepted.


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    #181
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Ever bought a gift card in a store or shopping centre? Use it or loose it.

    If 100% leap is enforced, it will go the same way.

    A Oneforall gift card will drop in value by €1.45 per month if its unused. Most other prepaid cards are the same.


    Well that is specious reasoning. The two products are not related.


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