DB fare increase

XPS_Zero

The Belfast Glider has you tag on at the stops before you get on the bus, when we move to the flat fare we should institute that, all we have to do is attach the validator to the RTPI pole and connect the two to the same network surely?

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I’ve sympathy for most people who have to use Dublin bus. Buses are packed from 7-10 and 4-7 every day. It’s obnoxious. And then there’s having to subsidize the scroungers who don’t pay a fare (not OAPs). If you can find another way like cycling, then do it.

Only disabled, carers and seniors GET FT cards to begin with so I don't know who these scroungers would be. 4/5 people who are on disability allowance obtain the disability during employment. Fraud is extremely difficult in this area (estimated to be about 4%), though it would be even harder if they bothered to send people to independent doctors for reviews like they used to (they just suddenly stopped doing this in the middle of the recession because they didn't wanna pay them the fees)



You also don't subsidize them via your fares, but via your taxes. Your PRSI pays for it the same way the people who are 10 and 12 now will have their PRSI pay for your FT card when you are over 66, or I will pay for yours in the near future if you get a short or long term disability. FT program is funded by the Department of Social Protection not the NTA and research shows such programs are a net neutral or net gain to the taxpayer because of what they save the govt in healthcare costs (seniors and the disabled tend to become shut ins, which puts their overall health into a nosedive and instead of their condition costing 5-6k a year to treat it can end up costing 70k a year to treat, the FT pass gets them out and about).
So you are paying for their FT the same way other people paid for you to go to school, hospital, helped your mother buy your clothes when you were a kid etc...we all subsidize each other that's how a social market economy works.



It's also an economic stimulus because it cuts out the travel costs allowing people to spread money around in places they could never have afforded to get to otherwise.

devnull

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Belfast Glider has you tag on at the stops before you get on the bus, when we move to the flat fare we should institute that, all we have to do is attach the validator to the RTPI pole and connect the two to the same network surely?

And how many bus stops does the Glider have versus the number of bus stops that are used by Dublin City bus services?

It's one thing to have a hand-picked single route with low double digit numbers of stops with their own validator, it's completely another thing to do it for several thousand, pay for all the infrastructure, installation works, digging, spares and maintenance and systems programming.

caviardreams

I wonder if they could have a validator at a few of the very major stop e.g. Blanchardstown shopping centre, DCU, UCD for example to speed up people getting on where there are often 15-20+ people at a stop?

Spanish Eyes

I really do not understand this Short Journey fare at all.

I haven't gone to any country yet that has two separate fares within a zone. But I am sure there are some exceptions since I haven't travelled on every bus on the planet either!

Maybe a ten journey short hop ticket that can be validated might work..... but opens up the possibility of fare evasion doesn't it?

Flat fare or nothing is the way to go really, and no cash fares anymore either.

Remember a lot of people who need the bus for two or three stops might be mobility impaired, elderly etc. and will therefore have FT. Anyone else can walk or pay the flat fare.

Sorry for sounding so grumpy.

devnull

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Maybe a ten journey short hop ticket that can be validated might work..... but opens up the possibility of fare evasion doesn't it?

It doesn't to the same degree if everyone gets the maximum transfer fare deducted on boarding and then gets the difference between the short hop and transfer fare rebated if they got off within a certain time/distance.

Spanish Eyes

devnull wrote: »

It doesn't to the same degree if everyone gets the maximum transfer fare deducted on boarding and then gets the difference between the short hop and transfer fare rebated if they got off within a certain time/distance.

Yep, with you on that, but requires a system like DART or LUAS, tag on, tag off I think.

devnull

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yep, with you on that, but requires a system like DART or LUAS, tag on, tag off I think.

Only people who need to tag off are the people who are using the short fare as this will complete the journey and rebate the difference between short and transfer fares. Other people just get off the bus as normal.

It's not a perfect system but it does remove the need for driver interaction as well as not opening up a large potential for fare evasion whilst also not introducing any up-front costs.

Bray Head

Any system that involves the introduction of tagging off will slow down the whole boarding and alighting process.

It would make the whole system less efficient and should be resisted.

Qrt

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I haven't gone to any country yet that has two separate fares within a zone.

Berlin has one, fairly certain Hamburg does, Munich too by the looks of things. "Kurzstrecke" they call it afaik.

devnull

Bray Head wrote: »

Any system that involves the introduction of tagging off will slow down the whole boarding and alighting process.

It would make the whole system less efficient and should be resisted.

The current system is far worse though because it involves driver interaction which is even slower and is resulting in a lot of over-riding based fare evasion.

A system where everybody who gets on just tags on regardless of distance and doesn't need to speak to the driver would save more time than would be lost by people who are going short distances tagging off unaided.

I grant you that it is not a perfect system, but if we have to choose between people speaking to the driver and tagging on, or tagging off and not speaking to a driver, the later will always be faster.

If you have another way of running a two fare system without spending tens of millions in infrastructure costs and risking huge amounts of fare evasion, I'm all ears.

Spanish Eyes

Qrt wrote: »

Berlin has one, fairly certain Hamburg does, Munich too by the looks of things. "Kurzstrecke" they call it afaik.

Ok fair enough. Do those short journey fares require interraction with the driver though? Or is it a tag on/off system?

Spanish Eyes

devnull wrote: »

Only people who need to tag off are the people who are using the short fare as this will complete the journey and rebate the difference between short and transfer fares. Other people just get off the bus as normal.

It's not a perfect system but it does remove the need for driver interaction as well as not opening up a large potential for fare evasion whilst also not introducing any up-front costs.

Tag off on DB is not there yet though. Would it require a lot of investment to introduce it I wonder?

Stephen15

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Belfast Glider has you tag on at the stops before you get on the bus, when we move to the flat fare we should institute that, all we have to do is attach the validator to the RTPI pole and connect the two to the same network surely?

Won't happen as there's nearly 2,000 bus stops across the city and the vast majority do not have RTPI poles. The Glider is a limited system like the Luas. I have yet to see any city that has installed validators at bus stops other than for BRT which is Glider is.

The costs of installing and maintaining validators at stops across would be too high and money could be better spent elsewhere.

devnull

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Tag off on DB is not there yet though. Would it require a lot of investment to introduce it I wonder?

The equipment that they have, should be able to support it, with the relevant programming. it's just a decision not to use it and honestly, with the current fare system, such a system would not really work anyway. But if you had a short fare and a transfer fare, it would work.

The problem is there is no way of getting around having either driver interaction (which itself has fare evasion issues) or tagging off in a two fare system, without introducing large additional infrastructure costs or risk of fare evasion.

Tagging off isn't a perfect option, I recognise that, however as well as being faster than driver interaction, it has less risk of fare evasion because the maximum fare deduction and rebate model essentially treats you as riding the higher fare unless you prove otherwise, rather than relying on honesty.

If we had a single flat transfer fare then fare evasion would be dead as a dodo, but unfortunately that would result in a lot of short trippers paying a lot more than they are now and I can't see that being politically viable, since if you think how much the local politicians got annoyed with BusConnects, if the flat fare goes to say €2.40, everyone from PBP will be campaigning about the 50% hike. And DB will almost certainly resist.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The current system is far worse though because it involves driver interaction which is even slower and is resulting in a lot of over-riding based fare evasion.

A system where everybody who gets on just tags on regardless of distance and doesn't need to speak to the driver would save more time than would be lost by people who are going short distances tagging off unaided.

I grant you that it is not a perfect system, but if we have to choose between people speaking to the driver and tagging on, or tagging off and not speaking to a driver, the later will always be faster.

If you have another way of running a two fare system without spending tens of millions in infrastructure costs and risking huge amounts of fare evasion, I'm all ears.

I would favour a flat fare over a tag on/off system. Having a 1-3 stage journey is a bit daft if you ask me as it only encourages people to do small trips which in many cases could and should be done on bike or by foot. Older and disabled people unable to walk would likely have an FTP.

I think a flat fare would be the best system to combat evasion but the best way to stop evasion would be for boots on the ground meaning a large RPO recruitment drive. Perhaps the NTA could merge Luas and Bus revenue protection together and have revenue protection on and off buses and tramd throughout the day have revenue protection officers directly employed by the NTA rather than by DB, GAI or Transdev directly.

Qrt

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ok fair enough. Do those short journey fares require interraction with the driver though? Or is it a tag on/off system?

The German’s don’t do tag on tag off. I don’t think there’s a single smart card system in the country. You either get the ticket from the driver (who gives change), or you get on with a ticket already, if you’ve just got off the U-Bahn for example.

...and this is in Berlin!

prinzeugen

Qrt wrote: »

This post gave me various illnesses. Use auto-top-up, most people use the right hand validator, and if it’s illegal to charge with different payment types then every transport system in the EU must be breaking it.

People using cash on buses need to be fired out of a cannon and off this island.

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

Stephen15

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

Once or twice a week is more than enough to warrant obtaining a Leap card I have similar usage patterns myself and I have one.

That sounds like it opens a can worms to me what about train companies in the UK charging less for online booking than walk up fares. How would you manage when the buses go cashless or how would you manage on TFL buses which are cashless.

Qrt

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

To stop annoying everyone else.

Dravokivich

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

I think that refers to a transaction with Cash or Credit/Debit Card. Not exactly with a Leap Card. Its a "promotional discount" for use of the service.

I haven't seen it, but i'd expect the issue they might have been pursuing was the practise of applying surcharges to customers making card transactions.

goingnowhere

Leap is not a financial product, it is not subject to regulation by the Central Bank, it is not a financial instrument.

ohnonotgmail

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

And it was on the BBC watchdog that you cannot be charged a premium for using a certain payment method.

Ie if its €2.15 by leap, then it should be €2.15 by cash.

And the only people that should be shot out a canon are the ones that think cashless is the way forward. But that is for another thread perhaps!

you are not being charged a premium for using a certain payment method. You are getting a discount for using Leap.

Captain Chaos

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you are not being charged a premium for using a certain payment method. You are getting a discount for using Leap.

Like buying Motor tax for 12 months at a time is cheaper than 3 or 6 months.

edunne2010

Use LEAPCARD to save money, also registered your card and enable auto top-up or use the leap app on the android phone to top-up.

bk

prinzeugen wrote: »

What if you only use the bus once or twice a week? Why must I buy a leap card?

Before they get rid of cash, they will first introduce contactless payments via debit cards and smartphones/watches (e.g. Apple Pay, Google Pay, etc.).

So no need for a Leap card then.

This is what has happened on London Bus, no cash anymore and it works extremely well.

bk

uptherebels wrote: »

In cork it's the same. It takes alot longer for the machine to read cards than it does for me to hand a driver coins and he pushes a button.

Actually the ticket machines are even slower in Cork, which is pretty shocking, as DB machines aren't exactly fast (and they are also the same machine). I don't understand why they are so slow in Cork.

Dublin also has the advantage of the right hand validator, which is very fast and is what most people use.

It is crazy that Cork doesn't have the right hand validator, given that most routes in Cork are fundamentally a flat fare already.

Rumour has it the that right hand validators will come to Cork next year, hopefully that will sort the issues there then.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Actually the ticket machines are even slower in Cork, which is pretty shocking, as DB machines aren't exactly fast (and they are also the same machine). I don't understand why they are so slow in Cork.

Dublin also has the advantage of the right hand validator, which is very fast and is what most people use.

It is crazy that Cork doesn't have the right hand validator, given that most routes in Cork are fundamentally a flat fare already.

Rumour has it the that right hand validators will come to Cork next year, hopefully that will sort the issues there then.

Also why do drivers in Cork still give change I'd imagine that slows things down a lot aswell and are there no tougher areas in Cork where drivers may get robbed?

punisher5112

The validator at the door is so wrong.

It should be following the tfi route and have all cards, tickets etc use the machine where the driver can actually see you scan.

The SG model it's so far back the person is up the stairs before you can tell if it was then or the person ahead or behind that didn't scan, pretended to scan or just doesn't have any credit.

This happens regularly and very much so with school kids as they all push on. Foreign exchange students would then be next on the list and quite a few adults at it also.

Another issue I'm seeing more is people hoping on through centre doors and pretend they don't hear the driver.

cdaly_

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would favour a flat fare over a tag on/off system. Having a 1-3 stage journey is a bit daft if you ask me as it only encourages people to do small trips which in many cases could and should be done on bike or by foot. Older and disabled people unable to walk would likely have an FTP.

The alternative to encouraging small trips is that people default to taking the car which is environmentally damaging, adds congestion and discourages bus use.

Stephen15

cdaly_ wrote: »

The alternative to encouraging small trips is that people default to taking the car which is environmentally damaging, adds congestion and discourages bus use.

People should encouraged to take trips by sustainable methods which includes walking and cycling aswell as public transport. I find in Ireland there is a bit of pheonomenon of driving or taking the bus for trip which can easily be done on foot.