Euthanasia

PlaneSpeeking

looksee wrote: »

I don't think Grace's personality is particularly relevant to this thread, while I don't agree with her opinions at all, without them the conversation would not have continued investigating the whole area of assisted death or euthanasia.

I am not far off G's age (as are many on Boards) and I also live mostly alone (with cats) in a less than satisfactory environment (entirely my choice/fault ), and am well aware of the aches and pains, limitations and illnesses that beset old age. Like her though, these all all incidental and not likely to create an immediate wish for the release offered by voluntary death. I reckon I have another maybe 20 years or so, still got loads to do.

If, however, the time comes when I am subject to a life of constant and unbearable pain, or I lose my mental faculties, I do sincerely hope that I will have the option of opting out when I am ready, or that someone takes pity and does it for me. If G wishes to suffer hopelessly, then that is for her to decide, but I would not want her, Mother Teresa style, deciding what is best for me.

I don't want to play the man not the ball you know, but certain posters remind me of my long since passed aunts. They had their beliefs and God held you if you held others!

One told me how to vote once! I didn't listen of course!

Perhaps it's a generational thing ? But then I recall my then 77 year old dad arguing almost violently in favour of equal marriage and think perhaps not.

Neyite

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would you mind explaining this?

A common Catholic phrase where any kind of pain, suffering or hardship should be offered up to god as some sort of gift. It's likely based upon Jesus dying on the cross to atone for the sins of others. Some religious people believe that suffering and offering it up to god pleases him. It often went to some crazy extremes where hair shirts and self-flaggelation were just a couple of the ways you could show your piety. It was the way to sainthood really.



Saint Mother Teresa in particular was a fan of offering it up. Not, of course, for herself, but for those who died a pain filled and prolonged agonising death in her so-called hospices when she rerouted the vast amounts of money and medicines to the Vatican instead of to the dying and the sick.

ricero

Harold Shipman did a lot of damage to bring in euthanasia in the United Kingdom.

Too many it can't be trusted as they feel it could be abused or manipulated.

jimgoose

Neyite wrote: »

Saint Mother Teresa in particular was a fan of offering it up. Not, of course, for herself, but for those who died a pain filled and prolonged agonising death in her so-called hospices when she rerouted the vast amounts of money and medicines to the Vatican instead of to the dying and the sick.

She was a great woman for a bit of offering, was the bould Treezer. She'd offer the suffering and whatnot to God, and the money to herself and the Vatican.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ricero wrote: »

Harold Shipman did a lot of damage to bring in euthanasia in the United Kingdom.

Too many it can't be trusted as they feel it could be abused or manipulated.

Once again, euthanasia and assisted dying are different. I really doubt it’ll be euthanasia that we’ll be asked to vote on if a referendum happens.

Wibbs

Neyite wrote: »

Saint Mother Teresa in particular was a fan of offering it up. Not, of course, for herself, but for those who died a pain filled and prolonged agonising death in her so-called hospices when she rerouted the vast amounts of money and medicines to the Vatican instead of to the dying and the sick.

And the old cow when she got sick herself whipped herself into the best hospitals.

ricero

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Once again, euthanasia and assisted dying are different. I really doubt it’ll be euthanasia that we’ll be asked to vote on if a referendum happens.

I understand that but unfortunately for many it is a hard thing to distinguish between.

I do think it's the next big moral issue to go to a referendum in many western countries.

PlaneSpeeking

I'd vote for doctor assisted suicide tomorrow.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Wibbs wrote: »

And the old cow when she got sick herself whipped herself into the best hospitals.

Don’t get me started on that wagon. It angers me to think of all the vulnerable people she subjected to unnecessary suffering. As if their lives weren’t hard enough as it was. :mad:

PlaneSpeeking

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Don’t get me started on that wagon. It angers me to think of all the vulnerable people she subjected to unnecessary suffering. As if their lives weren’t hard enough as it was. :mad:

My aunts thought her a saint and called me all manner of bad names when I pointed out she was far from it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ricero wrote: »

I understand that but unfortunately for many it is a hard thing to distinguish between.

I do think it's the next big moral issue to go to a referendum in many western countries.

Well, in Switzerland, I know for sure that the whole thing has to be filmed for legal reasons, to show that the person self-administered the drug. If no video is provided, I presume it’s investigated.

Neyite

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Don’t get me started on that wagon. It angers me to think of all the vulnerable people she subjected to unnecessary suffering. As if their lives weren’t hard enough as it was. :mad:

And they were often baptised without their consent:

Susan Shields, a former member of the Missionaries of Charity, writes that "Sisters were to ask each person in danger of death if he wanted a 'ticket to heaven'. An affirmative reply was to mean consent to baptism. The sister was then to pretend that she was just cooling the patient’s head with a wet cloth, while in fact she was baptising him, saying quietly the necessary words. Secrecy was important so that it would not come to be known that Mother Teresa's sisters were baptising Hindus and Muslims."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa


So yes, euthanasia is open to massive exploitation by those who have ulterior motives but those people may not necessarily be the ones we expect.

Stopped Clock

My mother had dementia for a long time before her suffering finally came to an end. I don't know if or when any of us will get over what we went through. It was horrific travelling along that journey into darkness with her. Anybody who hasn't lost a loved one to dementia doesn't have a clue what it's like. It's awful for the person who is having their personality and dignity taken away from them. It scars their family.

She eventually had to go into a nursing home because she could no longer be looked after at home. By that stage she was no longer able to eat by herself and could no longer walk or speak. She wore nappies and couldn't move much in her bed. She had to be turned by the nursing home staff and had to get a special air mattress to stop her getting bed sores. Her health deteriorated and she turned into skin and bone in the bed. When it became clear she was going to die, palliative care stepped in. I'm not 100% sure that the cocktail of medicines they gave her helped ease the pain. Sometimes she seemed to be suffering but we couldn't be sure. She died slowly and it was disturbing to see her struggle to breathe. I can't get that out of my head m When she finally was dead, all I felt was relief. I also wonder what she would have wanted. That's what haunts me if I'm honest. Did we make her suffer unnecessarily. Was there anything we should have done differently?

The thoughts of having to go through that in person terrify me. What's even more frightening is that there are no options. It's either live on for years and rot away in a nursing home or commit suicide. I don't want to die like my mother (who does?) so that leaves the other exit route. I hope that if I start to go down this road, I'll still have enough marbles left to have control over my destiny. If it means having to end my life earlier than I have to, I'll do it. You can't rely on other people to help. That, my friends, is the reality of dying.

Hotblack Desiato

Sorry to hear that Stopped Clock, I've been in a similar situation with two very close relatives myself.


The Supreme Court has already ruled that there's nothing in the constitution preventing the Oireachtas legislating for assisted suicide. No need for a referendum.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0429/387096-marie-fleming-to-hear-supreme-court-appeal-ruling/

Marie Fleming, who has multiple sclerosis, is physically unable to end her own life and wants her partner to help her die without fear of prosecution.

She had argued the ban on assisted suicide breached her Constitutional rights and discriminated against her as a disabled person.

A seven-judge Supreme Court ruled this morning that there was no Constitutional right to die or to be assisted to do so.

However, it said there was nothing to prevent the introduction of legislation to deal with cases such as that of Ms Fleming.

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The Supreme Court has already ruled that there's nothing in the constitution preventing the Oireachtas legislating for assisted suicide. No need for a referendum.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0429/387096-marie-fleming-to-hear-supreme-court-appeal-ruling/

That’s not much good though without a clear and distinct amendment to the constitution to permit people the right to die. Without that of course there is nothing to prevent the Oireachtas from legislating for assisted suicide, but a lot of those cases would then be investigated as persons dying under suspicious circumstances.

AndrewJRenko

Stopped Clock wrote: »

My mother had dementia for a long time before her suffering finally came to an end. I don't know if or when any of us will get over what we went through. It was horrific travelling along that journey into darkness with her. Anybody who hasn't lost a loved one to dementia doesn't have a clue what it's like. It's awful for the person who is having their personality and dignity taken away from them. It scars their family.

She eventually had to go into a nursing home because she could no longer be looked after at home. By that stage she was no longer able to eat by herself and could no longer walk or speak. She wore nappies and couldn't move much in her bed. She had to be turned by the nursing home staff and had to get a special air mattress to stop her getting bed sores. Her health deteriorated and she turned into skin and bone in the bed. When it became clear she was going to die, palliative care stepped in. I'm not 100% sure that the cocktail of medicines they gave her helped ease the pain. Sometimes she seemed to be suffering but we couldn't be sure. She died slowly and it was disturbing to see her struggle to breathe. I can't get that out of my head m When she finally was dead, all I felt was relief. I also wonder what she would have wanted. That's what haunts me if I'm honest. Did we make her suffer unnecessarily. Was there anything we should have done differently?

The thoughts of having to go through that in person terrify me. What's even more frightening is that there are no options. It's either live on for years and rot away in a nursing home or commit suicide. I don't want to die like my mother (who does?) so that leaves the other exit route. I hope that if I start to go down this road, I'll still have enough marbles left to have control over my destiny. If it means having to end my life earlier than I have to, I'll do it. You can't rely on other people to help. That, my friends, is the reality of dying.

It's not just the death stage that worries me. If I was faced with perhaps a dementia diagnosis or serious disability such as MND or later stages of MS, and facing into years in a nursing home or requiring extensive family support for normal daily living like going to the loo, I think I'd be inclined to put on the final playlist and drink the cocktail or whatever was necessary. Maybe my opinion would change, but I really wouldn't want to think of paying very large costs for care in a situation where I was incontinent or just not capable of enjoying the little things in life. I've seen what is supposedly one of the best nursing homes in the country for dementia care up close with a relative, and I really don't think I'd want to be there, sitting for hours in a TV room each day.

Gael23

Graces7 wrote: »

With good hospice care, they don't.

The guy I referred to spent that last week in a hospice. He wanted to die at h8me but because the pain was uncontrollable with home based treatment and he had such extreme vomiting that was not possible
He was 32 by the way.

sightband

OSI wrote: »

It takes a lot for me to say this, but I've seen you spout too much nonsense not to say it at this stage. You come across as a truly horrible human being devoid of compassion.

That poster comes from a different belief system to your own. I don’t know why I have to say that I disagree with that belief but this sh*t heap of a site will get me banned yet again without adding in some disclaimer that will calm a trigger happy mod down.

You are just as horrible and intolerant for not respecting their belief. Suicide, assisted death, euthanasia is not something anyone has a right to judge anyone else’s belief or thoughts on. It is quite possibly the furthest issue possible to being black or white, and that is directly linked to what you quoted them on.

AllForIt

Brian? wrote: »

Why blame SJWs? It’s the religious conservatives who object to euthanasia, for the most part. Most progressive or left leaning people are in favour of it.

You need to pick the right target for your anger.

It absolutely is not solely religious conservatives that object to it.

Brian? wrote: »

What has that got to do with euthanasia?

Because it is ppl of the ilk I'm taking about who object to it. That's what it's got to do with, I would have though that was obvious.

I am hitting the nail on the head in respect of the right target. It is those ppl who object to euthanasia because of their non-religious beliefs. The UK is largely a secular state so who is it that is putting up barriers against it there only non-religious ideologues of which SJW's are a part of.

SusieBlue

sightband wrote: »

That poster comes from a different belief system to your own. I don’t know why I have to say that I disagree with that belief but this sh*t heap of a site will get me banned yet again without adding in some disclaimer that will calm a trigger happy mod down.

You are just as horrible and intolerant for not respecting their belief. Suicide, assisted death, euthanasia is not something anyone has a right to judge anyone else’s belief or thoughts on. It is quite possibly the furthest issue possible to being black or white, and that is directly linked to what you quoted them on.

I don’t think anyone is saying that they don’t respect her beliefs.
I think the problem is that she thinks her beliefs are superior to everyone else’s, she would happily take the choice away from someone else just because she herself believes it to be the wrong choice.

If anything she is the one being intolerant and disrespectful to others.

She is the one insisting hospice care provides a dignified, painfree death when we all know that isn’t true - that’s extremely insulting to anyone who has had the misfortune of watching a loved one fade away in agony.

She is the one making blanket statements about suicide being ‘unacceptable’ with no consideration for the myriad of circumstances that a person who takes their own life finds themselves in, and even less for the family they leave behind.

If euthenasia is ever introduced in this country, it won’t be compulsory, so she can continue to live her life thinking it’s wrong and no one will force her to think otherwise.
Her dismissive attitude to the suffering of others as if its some sort of irrelevant minor inconvenience that should be protected at all costs is why people are getting so annoyed.

Arrival

People who are completely against this are genuinely retarded. Debate certain scenarios and circumstances which would be difficult to agree to, sure, but being 100% against this? **** off. If I'm in severe pain and suffering, if I have a terminal illness which will cause me to deteriorate in front of my family, if I'm incapable of moving and talking etc. I will mentally come to terms with the fact that my life is no longer going to continue in the way I wish for it to. After accepting this I would wish to end my life at some point when I'm ready. As an adult, it should be completely possible for me to do this and anyone who thinks they should be able to stand in my way of this is a fascist

One eyed Jack

Arrival wrote: »

People who are completely against this are genuinely retarded. Debate certain scenarios and circumstances which would be difficult to agree to, sure, but being 100% against this? **** off. If I'm in severe pain and suffering, if I have a terminal illness which will cause me to deteriorate in front of my family, if I'm incapable of moving and talking etc. I will mentally come to terms with the fact that my life is no longer going to continue in the way I wish for it to. After accepting this I would wish to end my life at some point when I'm ready. As an adult, it should be completely possible for me to do this and anyone who thinks they should be able to stand in my way of this is a fascist

It’s possible for you to do it now, off you go. What it’s not possible for you to do, is to give anyone else the right to end anyone’s life. That’s a right that has to be recognised by the State, not individuals, so while nobody is standing in your way personally, they do have a right to vote on whether or not to allow for the Constitution to be amended to allow for people to have the right to die.

That’s why the Supreme Court opined that there was nothing in the Constitution to stop the Oireachtas from introducing legislation regarding cases like Ms. Flemings case, but they wouldn’t be able to introduce legislation to permit assisted dying in all cases because first of all there’s that pesky right to life that already exists, and second of all there exists no right to die.

One eyed Jack

SusieBlue wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is saying that they don’t respect her beliefs.
I think the problem is that she thinks her beliefs are superior to everyone else’s, she would happily take the choice away from someone else just because she herself believes it to be the wrong choice.

If anything she is the one being intolerant and disrespectful to others.

She is the one insisting hospice care provides a dignified, painfree death when we all know that isn’t true - that’s extremely insulting to anyone who has had the misfortune of watching a loved one fade away in agony.

She is the one making blanket statements about suicide being ‘unacceptable’ with no consideration for the myriad of circumstances that a person who takes their own life finds themselves in, and even less for the family they leave behind.

If euthenasia is ever introduced in this country, it won’t be compulsory, so she can continue to live her life thinking it’s wrong and no one will force her to think otherwise.
Her dismissive attitude to the suffering of others as if its some sort of irrelevant minor inconvenience that should be protected at all costs is why people are getting so annoyed.

Respectfully, I don’t agree with your point of view Susie, and I have watched plenty of people I love die, some people peacefully, some people in agony, some people I disagreed that they should be allowed to die, some people I thought they couldn’t go soon enough. The point is that you’re making blanket statements about other people too, and I don’t know whether you realised it or not.

I don’t imagine that Grace intends any malice when she says that suicide is unacceptable, I would be of the same view, and I certainly couldn’t be accused of not considering the set of circumstances that a person who takes their own life finds themselves in. Well, I could be accused of it, but the people making that accusation would be wrong.

I’m just as annoyed that people have such little regard for human life that they compare humans to animals, and we put animals down when they are no longer useful, why not humans? If I were of Graces vintage, that question would be far more likely to play on my mind than the age I’m at now, all other circumstances of course being equal. Grace will also likely have had far more experience of friends and relatives and loved ones that have gone before her than I would, so on that basis alone I would want to give Grace a fair hearing rather than simply dismiss her opinions out of hand as has been attempted to be done here. I don’t find her opinions annoying, I find some people’s opinions on the subject of euthanasia far more irritating, and certainly I wouldn’t hold their opinions in the same regard as someone who is likely to have far more experience of the issues involved than I do.

lucalux

I wonder if any opponents to assisted suicide have considered just how 'simple' it actually is for a person to end their own life.

The effective methods can be messy. The 'cleaner' methods are not always guaranteed.

Organ donation can be considered if it is a planned procedure. Not to mention the dignity and comfort of having a medical professional to guide the way and the knowledge that you will be affecting only people who have an ability to cope with the aftermath.

To say 'just go and do it, nothing stopping you' is all well and good.
I wonder about the people who have to deal with the aftermath.

Ask Iarnrod Eireann staff who work the line, if they would prefer people had a more dignified path to tread. Ask the Gardaí. Fire services. Ask the Sub-Aqua volunteers. Coastguard. State Pathologists. Family members coming home to scenes that will haunt them. Ones they wished never to see. Did not need to see.

I would be of the opinion that palliative care and medically supervised assisted suicide could be implemented in this country with care and compassion for those who consider it necessary for themselves. Abuses of the systems already in place in other jurisdictions is minimal as far as I can see.

A positive result from having a legitimate pathway in place could also be that, in investigating the option of assisted suicide, some people may realise that it is not what they need.

I am coming at this from my own perspective of considering these options for myself.
I have seen young people face terminal illness, and I have helped care for elderly relatives, all with varying attitudes to death and dying.

Modern medicine prolongs life. I'm of the firm opinion that is not always a good thing.

None of us are the same. 'Selfishness' can't really be gauged by our own set of morals.

La.de.da

Stopped Clock wrote: »

My mother had dementia for a long time before her suffering finally came to an end. I don't know if or when any of us will get over what we went through. It was horrific travelling along that journey into darkness with her. Anybody who hasn't lost a loved one to dementia doesn't have a clue what it's like. It's awful for the person who is having their personality and dignity taken away from them. It scars their family.

She eventually had to go into a nursing home because she could no longer be looked after at home. By that stage she was no longer able to eat by herself and could no longer walk or speak. She wore nappies and couldn't move much in her bed. She had to be turned by the nursing home staff and had to get a special air mattress to stop her getting bed sores. Her health deteriorated and she turned into skin and bone in the bed. When it became clear she was going to die, palliative care stepped in. I'm not 100% sure that the cocktail of medicines they gave her helped ease the pain. Sometimes she seemed to be suffering but we couldn't be sure. She died slowly and it was disturbing to see her struggle to breathe. I can't get that out of my head m When she finally was dead, all I felt was relief. I also wonder what she would have wanted. That's what haunts me if I'm honest. Did we make her suffer unnecessarily. Was there anything we should have done differently?

The thoughts of having to go through that in person terrify me. What's even more frightening is that there are no options. It's either live on for years and rot away in a nursing home or commit suicide. I don't want to die like my mother (who does?) so that leaves the other exit route. I hope that if I start to go down this road, I'll still have enough marbles left to have control over my destiny. If it means having to end my life earlier than I have to, I'll do it. You can't rely on other people to help. That, my friends, is the reality of dying.

On that journey at the minute. It's a horrible soul destroying thing to watch. And you're right my family will never be the same again. It's damn near torn us apart. At the moment I'm ashamed to say.... It's all just going through the motions of visiting. Cause although that looks like my beloved adored mother, she's long gone. Waking up everyday wondering is this the day she might take another turn, stomach turning when time comes to visit the nursing home. Not for the lack of love for her but for what that place represents.

I don't want that for me or my family to witness. I believe that's not living but existing and there should be assisted dying for that.

Hotblack Desiato

AllForIt wrote: »

It absolutely is not solely religious conservatives that object to it.

Well that''s setting a pretty low bar for your claim, isn't it. Same as the one we got here "not everyone opposed to abortion is religious." Find one person meeting that criterion and your claim is true. Well duh. It's a meaningless claim, unless you can demonstrate that a significant proportion of the people objecting to euthanasia are those who you denigrate as "SJWs" and that that correlation (which you have completely failed to demonstrate exists) demonstrates something useful.

I am hitting the nail on the head in respect of the right target. It is those ppl who object to euthanasia because of their non-religious beliefs. The UK is largely a secular state so who is it that is putting up barriers against it there only non-religious ideologues of which SJW's are a part of.

Which people?
Why would a non-religious belief make someone object to euthanasia? All the evidence to date shows that the overwhelming majority of people who object to it are coming at the question from a religious viewpoint.
The UK is very far from being a secular state, it has an established church, and quite a number of very vocal religious conservatives of various kinds, which the state and media give attention to out of all proportion to their actual numbers.

You're talking complete nonsense tbh.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s not much good though without a clear and distinct amendment to the constitution to permit people the right to die. Without that of course there is nothing to prevent the Oireachtas from legislating for assisted suicide, but a lot of those cases would then be investigated as persons dying under suspicious circumstances.

So what? Any suspicious death can be investigated as a possible criminal offence, once it's established it was natural causes or an (unassisted, for now) suicide then the investigation ends.

The Supreme Court explicitly said that it would be constitutional to pass an assisted suicide law. Go back and read the post again perhaps?

Hotblack Desiato

sightband wrote: »

You are just as horrible and intolerant for not respecting their belief.

Bullsh!t. Not all beliefs are worthy of respect.

Some people believe that homosexuals are an abomination and should be put to death and can quote you chapter and verse of their religious book to justify their belief.

I could go on. You can believe what you want, BUT when your beliefs conflict with the rights of others that's when the right to demand respect for your beliefs ends.

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So what? Any suspicious death can be investigated as a possible criminal offence, once it's established it was natural causes or an (unassisted, for now) suicide then the investigation ends.

The Supreme Court explicitly said that it would be constitutional to pass an assisted suicide law. Go back and read the post again perhaps?

I don’t need to read the post again, I’m familiar with what is written in the article you linked to, and I’m familiar with the decision of the Supreme Court and I’m familiar with the basis for their opinion. It’s written in the article you linked to -

The Supreme Court said nothing in its judgment should be taken as necessarily implying that it would not be open to the State in the event that the Oireachtas were satisfied that measures with appropriate safeguards could be introduced, to legislate to deal with a case such as that of Ms Fleming.


That’s not the same thing as suggesting that the Oireachtas could introduce a sort of a “free for all” with regards to legislating for euthanasia. The Judges were very specific in limiting their opinion to relate specifically to legislation which could be introduced to deal with cases similar to that of Ms. Fleming - ie a very specific set of circumstances. It would certainly not be the broad, all-encompassing legislation you might be hoping for.

If the right to die however were inserted into the Constitution, it would make legislating for euthanasia and assisted dying a whole hell of a lot easier to do. That’s why I mentioned that whole pesky right to life that currently stands in the way of it. It’s all right there in the article you linked to -

This complex issue of assisted suicide had been assessed and the legislature in Ireland had legislated in Sec 2(2) of the Criminal Law Suicide Act of 1993.


2.—(1) Suicide shall cease to be a crime.

(2) A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

(3) If, on the trial of an indictment for murder, murder to which section 3 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1990 applies or manslaughter, it is proved that the person charged aided, abetted, counselled or procured the suicide of the person alleged to have been killed, he may be found guilty of an offence under this section.

(4) No proceedings shall be instituted for an offence under this section except by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecution


The Oireachtas could amend that in the morning if they wanted to, but it’s far more likely without an amendment to the Constitution, any legislative amendment would be interpreted as the Supreme Court has done in the case of Marie Fleming - very narrowly.

I have a Relative up in Marymount at the moment who's absolutely riddled with cancer but somehow her heart is as strong as it ever was while the rest of her body withers away around it. We know she's dying, she knows it, the staff know it and there's **** all to be done aside from dope her up to the gills to maintain as much comfort as possible.
Her daily routine consists of saying endless decades of the rosary and calling for her long-dead husband, with occasional assisted trips to the bathroom.
I don't know what her thoughts on euthanasia are, but the fact that it isn't an option, that the only route is to turn into a husk and lose your facilities one after another as your family can only look on is nothing short of a ****ing disgrace.

I can only hope that when my time comes the options are there to make my own choice because this sitting in a hospice bed awaiting your turn is cruel and dehumanizing