Someone explain this one to me.

Cass

I've seen, heard and even handled a few firearms over the years and thought "what is the purpose of it". I genuinely couldn't figure out where it would fit into the market as there seemed to be more than enough options to fit the bill.

The latest one that has me scratching my head is Remingtons latest offering. The 700 CP. It's a "pistol" in rifle form but with no butt stock, and a 12" barrel. It's chambered in rifle calibers and has a bolt with an AICS mag type feed system.



The article says the two "things" it'll fulfill are:

1. Fun
2. In case you're hiking/need something compact.

Well if you want something fun, being the states and all, you have an endless supply including this gem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSIGmGd_0Cw

And if you want something with a punch but compact then you can look towards the AR pistols, or even a short barreled standard rifle with folding or telescopic stock which we even have here.

So as per the title someone explain to me, without repeating the two reason in the article, what purpose it serves?

gunny123

Stumped if i know cass. Its like the Mossberg shockwave shotgun, which to me looks like a sawn-off. What the reason, design brief is or was i do not know. Toys for people with too much money.



https://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/

gavindublin

It's cheaper.
Pistol calibre is cheaper to run. And with it registered as a pistol and not a sbr it's cheaper to purchase

gavindublin

And Merica!

cookimonster

Is it aimed at ultra restricted California gun regulations,?

..... is there something that we don't know or understand in relation to after market parts that would still allow it to be compliant but if sold in such a way would be contray to state regulations.
I seem to remember that there were after market parts that could be fitted to AR pistols that essentially made them long arms and still not fall a foul of restrictive county legislation etc.

cookimonster

.......just remembered, the after market part is a 'stabilizer brace' , which in my mind looks an awful like a 'butt'

https://youtu.be/QJ4ySR9kMzc

Any how after a bit of less then adult conversation and discussion, I belive it was considered ok to use the 'brace' in such a way as it wasn't really a butt although it seemed to function as one.....only in America
.

judestynes

Whats the purpose of a monster truck? This is the States lads. Sh1t doesnt need to have a purpose there it just. Who the hell needs a lever action mares leg in 500 smith&wesson but they're available there.

extremetaz

As above, it's a legislation dodge - from what I can tell of the regs over there, short barreled rifles are either prohibited or restricted or otherwise more difficult to get. So you build your short barreled rifle as a "pistol" for which there's an aftermarket "brace" available and there you have it.

tac foley

There is a simple, one-word answer to the question 'why?'

Because they can.

Grizzly 45

Simple really...They built a "pistol" for us here in Ireland and the UK that complies with all our regs!:D:D:D

And the second reason is simple!America!":D

Grizzly 45

extremetaz wrote: »

As above, it's a legislation dodge - from what I can tell of the regs over there, short barreled rifles are either prohibited or restricted or otherwise more difficult to get. So you build your short barreled rifle as a "pistol" for which there's an aftermarket "brace" available and there you have it.

Not quite.
You build an "Any Other Weapon"[AOW] on a reciver that was NEVER registerd as anything but that. The difference is a 5 USD tax stamp or a 200 USD tax stamp.IE using a blank Mossberg 500 receiver, allows you to build things like the Shockwave or such with a 12 in barrel.Whi ch is an AOW, a catch-all class of firearms that don't fill the regular categories of guns
BUT you can positively, never, ever, ever mount a shoulder stock on it as that then makes it a Short Barrelled Shotgun[SBS] subject to a Federal license and 200 USD tax stamp. Which is what you must pay and do if say, you wanted to convert a regular rifle or shotgun to an "SBS or SBR[short barrelled rifle].
The advantage to an SBS or SBR is that you can then put any sort of stock configuration or foregrip on it.

The Arm brace is basically an approved BATFE addition to "stabilise " the gun.By rights, you are not supposed to put your cheek on the brace for it to be legal.But BATFE changes their minds about things like this regularly.ast month they were prosecuting some fellow in Maryland for having an unlicensed SBR with this configuration.

juice1304

Its because in some states they have a pistol hunting season. So it actually makes perfect sense. Would you rather take a shot at a deer with a large revolver or that 700 from a bipod.
For it to be a pistol it has to be manufactured as a pistol action. A pistol action can be registered as a short barreled rifle with the tax stamp but a rifle cant be turned into a pistol ever.
I will buy or make one for the pistol season.

extremetaz

Cheers Grizzly - figures there was some sort of thing like that going on alright

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BUT you can positively, never, ever, ever mount a shoulder stock on it as that then makes it a Short Barrelled Shotgun[SBS] ...

The Arm brace is basically an approved BATFE addition to "stabilise " the gun.By rights, you are not supposed to put your cheek on the brace for it to be legal.But BATFE changes their minds about things like this regularly.ast month they were prosecuting some fellow in Maryland for having an unlicensed SBR with this configuration.

...what's the distinction between a 'brace' and a 'shoulder stock'? Is it the fact that it's attached to a 'pistol'? ..or could you fit a 'brace' to an AOW?

Juice's point above seems like a reasonable one too.

Grizzly 45

For it to be a pistol it has to be manufactured as a pistol action. A pistol action can be registered as a short barreled rifle with the tax stamp but a rifle cant be turned into a pistol ever.

.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it can! it becomes a Federal classed firearm as a "Short Barrelled Rifle" requiring a 200 dollar tax stamp and a Federal license to own.

If you build it however on the receiver action that is virgin and was never used or registered as a rifle.It becomes an Any Other Weapon with a 5 dollar tax transfer fee and ownable by anyone. But you can never put a rifle stock on it. It has to stay in the "pistol" configuration forever. This is why you have a bunch of the "pistolised" copies of AR's AK's and what not in the US for sale.They are AOW's.

Grizzly 45

extremetaz wrote: »

Cheers Grizzly - figures there was some sort of thing like that going on alright



...what's the distinction between a 'brace' and a 'shoulder stock'? Is it the fact that it's attached to a 'pistol'? ..or could you fit a 'brace' to an AOW?

Juice's point above seems like a reasonable one too.

Legal definitions and interpretation by the ATF mostly.

The "arm brace" to give its full correct title, was invented by a disabled war vet from Afghanistan to allow him to shoot a rifle/carbine AR. By rights, you are supposed to wear it over your forearm and grip the AR pistol grip and use your other hand to stabilise the forearm.

A shoulder stock is,as we all know,a piece of wood, metal etc, butting into your shoulder to aid in aiming as a 3rd point stabiliser.

The arm brace became the must-have add-on as it was/is defined by ATF as not a shoulder stock, which allowed it to be attached to AOW's and give you a very crude and uncomfortable shoulder stock.,so long as you didn't "mount" the brace on your shoulder. Hence you see in videos, lads having these odd positions when using these guns.

Grizzly 45

And if you arent confused enough! Try this one.:D
And a good explanation of SBR,SBS,AOW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5KbWOe64g

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

Is it aimed at ultra restricted California gun regulations,?

Thing is i think it still violates their rules.

cookimonster wrote: »

.......just remembered, the after market part is a 'stabilizer brace' , which in my mind looks an awful like a 'butt'
.

Wash your mouth out with soap. Thats a brace. :P:D

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And if you arent confused enough! Try this one.:D
And a good explanation of SBR,SBS,AOW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5KbWOe64g

My head hurts. "It fires shotgun shells, but its not a shotgun", "Its not a shotgun, a rifle or a pistol" .

I think a lot of this is done just to PO the ATF etc.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Thing is i think it still violates their rules.
[/QUOTE
]Still legal out there oddly enough as its "overall length"put it outside the AOW category. Even California allows AOWs[apart from pen guns].You can walk into any CA gun store and if you are a resident buy this no problem. you can buy a 14in barrel shotgun there too, but will probably need 8months for the Feds to do the paperwork,and you need to find an NFA dealer in Ca to complete the transaction.They are as common as piebald unicorn herds out there.:(

gunny123

I know J.D Jones built the .950 jdj just to po the atf, what use has it ? Nothing i can think of, apart from knocking down houses or dinosaurs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohy9gWz7kk

Grizzly 45

Handy for stopping WW1 tanks perhaps??:)

tac foley

It's for FUN. Remember shooting for fun? Well, THAT's what it's for. It's what folks can do when they are not nailed to the mainmast with stupid regulations the way we ALL are over here.

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

It's for FUN. Remember shooting for fun? Well, THAT's what it's for. It's what folks can do when they are not nailed to the mainmast with stupid regulations the way we ALL are over here.

I don't call getting detached retinas fun, but you are right, fun is frowned on in shooting in ireland. I had one old bore tell its much too serious a sport for fun.

tac foley

Gunny, I can tell you that I have fun every time I squeeze that trigger, something that has never changed in more than sixty-six years.

tac foley

Talking about fun and shooting - take a few minutes to see how a living national treasure, Hershel House [no relation to Harbour House who I bleeve might be a distant cousin] makes one of his flintlock rifles -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGpa_SkxmvI

Note how, at the end, that ignition is dang near as fast as a percussion gun.

Yes, he will make one for you, if you have a couple of years and a few thousand $$$$. Thankfully, the USA is still well-fitted with the likes of Mr House and his incredible skills.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

It's for FUN. Remember shooting for fun? Well, THAT's what it's for. It's what folks can do when they are not nailed to the mainmast with stupid regulations the way we ALL are over here.

America may still be the land of the brave, but its certainly not the land of the free anymore. They cherish their 2nd amendment as well as the others, but like the first it's slowly being eroded away.

Suppressors are still a high value commodity, places like California are more strict than here, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, Hawaii, etc. are all going the same way with strict gun bans, mag limits, etc.

I have no intention of turning this into an American politics thread, but the land of the free is not so free anymore and given the platform the Dems are running on (gun bans) it may get worse.

Cadpat_cowboy

tac foley wrote: »

Talking about fun and shooting - take a few minutes to see how a living national treasure, Hershel House [no relation to Harbour House who I bleeve might be a distant cousin] makes one of his flintlock rifles -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGpa_SkxmvI

Note how, at the end, that ignition is dang near as fast as a percussion gun.

Yes, he will make one for you, if you have a couple of years and a few thousand $$$$. Thankfully, the USA is still well-fitted with the likes of Mr House and his incredible skills.

Man those guns are beautiful, good to see that at least somewhere in the world there is still people doing handman craft work.

gunhappy_ie

judestynes wrote: »

Whats the purpose of a monster truck? This is the States lads. Sh1t doesnt need to have a purpose there it just. Who the hell needs a lever action mares leg in 500 smith&wesson but they're available there.

Exactly !!

The AR market in the US is completely saturated so its really down to what can we sell now ! Just look now a few years ago everyone was selling Zombie Defence themed guns/ammo !!

Rows Grower

tac foley wrote: »

Gunny, I can tell you that I have fun every time I squeeze that trigger, something that has never changed in more than sixty-six years.

You've got a 65 year start on me with experience but it is an awesome sport that I know I'll never grow tired of.

I just wish I'd taken it up earlier in life, I get the same kick out of hitting something for the pot as I do hitting a water balloon with a pellet gun. Once the shot is on target the goal is accomplished.

I was travelling through Cork city yesterday and hit upon UCC Radio around late afternoon. As the music was good I stayed tuned and then there were three lads on that were hosting and they had a discussion about the shootings in America.

They made what I thought were some very valid points about how the laws there need to be changed and how different the culture is there compared to here. It was like a one sided debate to be honest but what surprised me was that three educated young men had no idea that shooting is actually a sport in this country that has a huge following outside of farmers who have guns because they need them.

They thought it was incredulous that someone (only American's, in their three minds) would go to a firing range for a few shots the same way as someone else here might go to a golf course or a driving range for a few shots.

Shooting in Ireland is almost like an underground sport to the general public with a lot of myths, inaccuracies and ignorance associated with it. I can say this with confidence because if I heard the same discussion 18 months ago I would have agreed with everything that was said.

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

America may still be the land of the brave, but its certainly not the land of the free anymore. They cherish their 2nd amendment as well as the others, but like the first it's slowly being eroded away.

Suppressors are still a high value commodity, places like California are more strict than here, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, Hawaii, etc. are all going the same way with strict gun bans, mag limits, etc.

See the thread about the swiss gun shop, the American fella was literally gobsmacked at what he could walk in and buy in the swiss shop. You want a machine gun ? No problem in switzerland.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

America may still be the land of the brave, but its certainly not the land of the free anymore. They cherish their 2nd amendment as well as the others, but like the first it's slowly being eroded away.

Suppressors are still a high value commodity, places like California are more strict than here, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut, Hawaii, etc. are all going the same way with strict gun bans, mag limits, etc.

I have no intention of turning this into an American politics thread, but the land of the free is not so free anymore and given the platform the Dems are running on (gun bans) it may get worse.

After living in CA and NJ,I can tell you they are ultra liberal with gun ownership compared to here on our best day.
Also, unlike here where everything is on paper,the majority of people in those states have blatentledly ignored and given the middle finger to any such directives,or gone and invented something to circumvent the ban.Like the CA speed loader for AR15s with locked down lower receivers. Maryland has had all of TEN semis handed in since their ban and the local LE and Govt are terrified of taking on 30 thousand semi-auto gun owners with confiscations.
As the majority of them were probably lost in a "boating accident":pac:

Unfortunately, silencers and nationwide reciprocity on CCWP will be on hold for a long time now. as will the bump stock ban But that's now because the US system of govt is in a stalemate. The Senate proposes legislation, the House has to pass it.so guess how much will get done and passed now, without some serious compromises and horse trading?What's called a "lame duck Congress."

Yeah, the Dems can call for gun bans, but on the ground, people are voting with their feet in CA and buying more guns again after the last shooting in CA.Now, even people who have never considered owning guns.So still not an end of lshooting life as we know it over there.:)

tac foley

...and firearms and firearms-based accessory manufacturers, initially setting up in CA due to 'friendly' company set-up tariffs and favourable tax breaks on smaller-scale industries, are now leaving the state and coming back to life in those states where there is a more 2A-friendly legislature.

First to go a few years back was Ken Barrett of Barrett Firearms Industries, maker of the world-famed .50cal semi-auto rifle, much-loved by armies and other forces world-wide for its sheer dependability and ease of use. CA had just banned .50 firearms sales to civilians, so Barrett suspended sales and service to all law enforcement agencies in California and moved the whole shebang to Tennessee.

He was just the first, and since then around forty other companies have followed his example.