Will the housing issue be solved?

mammajamma

Following on from the thread where yet another all-time record has been smashed in rental prices, does anyone seriously think that this is going to be solved?

Combine the years upon years of the government waffling about "tackling" it, with records being consistently broken, and then to add fuel to the fire, this is the very first "key point" from the national planning framework for 2040...

"Guide the future development of Ireland, taking into account a projected 1 million increase in our population, the need to create 660,000 additional jobs to achieve full employment and a need for 550,000 more homes by 2040"

The great "vision" can be read here http://npf.ie/draft-of-ireland-2040/

I mean, are they literally laughing at us behind closed doors? This is so preposterous its surely a joke?

hatrickpatrick

With a radical change of political climate and government, it might. It happened in the 1930s and 40s with Herbert Simms, the only thing stopping it from happening again is right wing political ideology.

BattleCorp

It won't be solved in the short-term. I'm fairly sure about that. I have my doubts about it being solved in the future too.

The only solution is a dramatic increase in supply and that isn't easy to do. It takes time and money and a Government with an appetite to get it done (which we don't have).

mammajamma

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

With a radical change of political climate and government, it might. It happened in the 1930s and 40s with Herbert Simms, the only thing stopping it from happening again is right wing political ideology.

I agree with the "radical" part. And that's the problem with extremes, who knows what form it will take?!

But I think we can agree that current direction is heading into oblivion!

That said, I think its too easy to blame one side of a political ideology, especially when the waters are so muddied as to what is left and right when it comes to our current government and opposition. If anything, they come across as a monolith, neither left or right, but simply "their own thing"

On that basis, I think its fair to say that no matter what happens, it certainly isn't going to be current political climate that provides answers.

super_furry

Things are going to have to change radically in the country if it is to be solved, starting with a moratorium on large scale landlords buying up property.

We're going to have to either get used to European style apartment living and build up or we're going to have to invest heavily in the railways and make commuting from distance a feasible alternative. My brother lives 50-odd miles from his office in London but commutes via rail and is door to door in just over an hour. You couldn't do that here.

mammajamma

BattleCorp wrote: »

It won't be solved in the short-term. I'm fairly sure about that. I have my doubts about it being solved in the future too.

The only solution is a dramatic increase in supply and that isn't easy to do. It takes time and money and a Government with an appetite to get it done (which we don't have).

Certainly not short term, not a chance.

But as you say, looking into medium and long term, the government cant keep up with demand as it is, while at the same time having a "vision" of an extra million people in the country?! Whats the point of building anything if they simply aim to always be under capacity?

It crossed the line into a bad joke quite a while ago. Pure nonsense!

mammajamma

super_furry wrote: »

Things are going to have to change radically in the country if it is to be solved, starting with a moratorium on large scale landlords buying up property.

We're going to have to either get used to European style apartment living and build up or we're going to have to invest heavily in the railways and make commuting from distance a feasible alternative. My brother lives 50-odd miles from his office in London but commutes via rail and is door to door in just over an hour. You couldn't do that here.

I'll add to that moratorium, that outside investors not be allowed buy irish property, or at least with a hefty tax added on, a la Toronto and the Chinese (not that that is enough)

It comes across as an impossibility, a race that has been set up to never be won.

Say we get used to living in smaller and more cramped consitions like apartments, but theres still more and more people arriving into the country. WHats next? Even smaller living spaces?

Maybe shared accommodation? Maybe multiple families living in the one building?

I hink we tried tenements before, and we didn't like it!

As for improving and enabling massive commutes, nobody wants that either. Its all unsustainable, every bit, and the government has a bloody cheek to propose massive population increase while being completely and utterly incompetent even at this point.

pablohoney87

mammajamma wrote: »

Certainly not short term, not a chance.

But as you say, looking into medium and long term, the government cant keep up with demand as it is, while at the same time having a "vision" of an extra million people in the country?! Whats the point of building anything if they simply aim to always be under capacity?

It crossed the line into a bad joke quite a while ago. Pure nonsense!

Unless governments are more transparent with these "long term" plans they arent worth a bollix.

Every plan is just an election away from being scrapped and started from scratch.

mammajamma

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Unless governments are more transparent with these "long term" plans they arent worth a bollix.

Every plan is just an election away from being scrapped and started from scratch.

That's what I don't get! I can understand any government blowing smoke up arses, but to blatantly advertise their 2040 plan, in THIS environment...

Is it a joke?!

Why not advertise a national plan where they want us all to live underground like rats? Its just as appealing.

Shenshen

Eventually, all crises are resolved.
In this case, there is no short-term solution. Any measures put in place now would take years to show any effect.
And it would mean that politicians would have to step up and acknowledge that private builds are contributing to the problem, not the solution. The solution will take government investment (and a rise in taxes alongside, to finance it), and a plan for longer that a single government term.
Given that the current budget has ridiculously little in the way of government investment into anything at all, in favour of handing money back to the public rather than providing services for society, I seriously doubt that there will be any politician anytime soon who would step up to the post.

So, this leaves a long-term solution. Very long term. Something like a reduction of the number of people living and working in Ireland, for example, as it becomes unaffordable.

mammajamma

Shenshen wrote: »

Eventually, all crises are resolved.
In this case, there is no short-term solution. Any measures put in place now would take years to show any effect.
And it would mean that politicians would have to step up and acknowledge that private builds are contributing to the problem, not the solution. The solution will take government investment (and a rise in taxes alongside, to finance it), and a plan for longer that a single government term.
Given that the current budget has ridiculously little in the way of government investment into anything at all, in favour of handing money back to the public rather than providing services for society, I seriously doubt that there will be any politician anytime soon who would step up to the post.

So, this leaves a long-term solution. Very long term. Something like a reduction of the number of people living and working in Ireland, for example, as it becomes unaffordable.[/QUOTE]

Precisely! If it were only the housing crisis as it stands, we'd all be left scratching our heads anyway.

But its the combination of that, PLUS another million people? I just cant get my head wrapped around the idiocy of it all.

An analogy. There is a crisis with healthcare. The government willingly admits that its vision is to close 80% of all clinics and hospitals within 20 years...!!!!!

What?!

kneemos

mammajamma wrote: »

Certainly not short term, not a chance.

But as you say, looking into medium and long term, the government cant keep up with demand as it is, while at the same time having a "vision" of an extra million people in the country?! Whats the point of building anything if they simply aim to always be under capacity?

It crossed the line into a bad joke quite a while ago. Pure nonsense!

What exactly is the Government supposed to do about the housing crisis?
Apart from commission a few affordable housing projects I have no idea.

Idbatterim

Is the op a joke? Do you think it will be solved? How long have you lived here ? Those morons running the place couldn’t find their way out of a paper bag. Then they have a vested interest in prices rising. Even as homeowners they want prices to rise , as if they have to be landlords!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3n59wC8kk

Wheeliebin30

We don’t have the money to build 100s of thousands of social houses.

See our budget?

2.5 billion a year paying back our bailout.

There isn’t much left to do anything with after that.

You can thank FF for that.

Who will be probably voted back in next election.

Idbatterim

kneemos wrote: »

What exactly is the Government supposed to do about the housing crisis?
Apart from commission a few affordable housing projects I have no idea.

Reduce building costs for apartments, the build cost per square meter is ridiculous! They also cream off a fortune on the build cost in vat and levies. Ultimately though, the developer will always charge what the market will bare. The only way they will solve it is higher density , lower construction costs and universal public housing ..

They tinker around the edges to make it look like they are doing something. Take action into your own hands and put up a log cabin if you can. If you’re waiting for our shower of morons to sort things out... well lol! I’ve got some magic beans to sell.

A mate was given a price of seven k for supply and install of a 20 sq m log cabin including insulation, gutters, timber frame and block foundation in Dublin. Didn’t include water or sewage electric etc.

pablohoney87

Shenshen wrote: »

Eventually, all crises are resolved.
In this case, there is no short-term solution. Any measures put in place now would take years to show any effect.
And it would mean that politicians would have to step up and acknowledge that private builds are contributing to the problem, not the solution. The solution will take government investment (and a rise in taxes alongside, to finance it), and a plan for longer that a single government term.
Given that the current budget has ridiculously little in the way of government investment into anything at all, in favour of handing money back to the public rather than providing services for society, I seriously doubt that there will be any politician anytime soon who would step up to the post.

So, this leaves a long-term solution. Very long term. Something like a reduction of the number of people living and working in Ireland, for example, as it becomes unaffordable.

I'm not so sure that is really a factor though

We have still not reached the population of the country before the potato famine and unemployment is fairly low. The cost of building seems to be the big problem while wages are still stagnant.

My parents bought their house in the 80s for about twice my dads salary at the time. Now people are buying houses for 3.5 times a couples combined salaries at rates of 4%. All this while wages are not increasing for the last 10 years.

Only solution is for the government to step in where the private sector has failed, commission the building or form a housing construction dept similar to the health service and standardize the prices of these houses on an annual basis.

Regulate it in some way so that these properties cannot be let out. You either live there or you sell it. I'm no fan of communism but when it comes to things like healthcare, defence and affordable housing the government must step in.

kneemos

Idbatterim wrote: »

Reduce building costs for apartments, the build cost per square meter is ridiculous! They also cream off a fortune on the build cost in vat and levies. Ultimately though, the developer will always charge what the market will bare. The only way they will solve it is higher density , lower construction costs and universal public housing ..

They tinker around the edges to make it look like they are doing something. Take action into your own hands and put up a log cabin if you can. If you’re waiting for our shower of morons to sort things out... well lol! I’ve got some magic beans to sell.

A mate was given a price of seven k for supply and install of a 20 sq m log cabin including insulation, gutters, timber frame and block foundation in Dublin. Didn’t include water or sewage electric etc.

How do they reduce building costs? The maprket price will stay the same whatever the builder pays in VAT.

Idbatterim

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

We don’t have the money to build 100s of thousands of social houses.

See our budget?

2.5 billion a year paying back our bailout.

There isn’t much left to do anything with after that.

You can thank FF for that.

Who will be probably voted back in next election.

Fg would have done the same as fg and I voted for them years ago. They are all talk, as this thread highlights. Their total incompetence regarding the economy will result in another recession here. They increased spending v income tax cuts at a ratio of 19/1 this budget. I’d say relatively the idiocy of their actions now are worse than ff during the boom. The big difference this time is Europe and the banks have majorly clamped down on the reckless lending ...

Idbatterim

kneemos wrote: »

How do they reduce building costs? The maprket price will stay the same whatever the builder pays in VAT.

Reduce or abolish dual aspect requirements, would significantly cut build costs. I’d also be looking into lift core ratio and parking costs ...

Idbatterim

“Only solution is for the government to step in where the private sector has failed, commission the building or form a housing construction dept similar to the health service and standardize the prices of these houses on an annual basis.”

You’re listening to the Irish media too much ! How has the private sector failed?! You realise their aim is profit maximisation? They are doing fantastic! The morons in government have failed or things are going exactly according to plan , whatever viewpoint you have ...

kneemos

Idbatterim wrote: »

Reduce or abolish dual aspect requirements, would significantly cut build costs. I’d also be looking into lift core ratio and parking costs ...

Wouldn't be a fan of reducing quality for a negligible short term gain.

pablohoney87

Idbatterim wrote: »

“Only solution is for the government to step in where the private sector has failed, commission the building or form a housing construction dept similar to the health service and standardize the prices of these houses on an annual basis.”

You’re listening to the Irish media too much ! How has the private sector failed?! You realise their aim is profit maximisation? They are doing fantastic! The morons in government have failed or things are going exactly according to plan , whatever viewpoint you have ...

I am talking solely in their ability to deliver affordable housing to the market.

The private sector has no interest in delivering affordable housing yet the government is tied to this dream that the market will solve itself when in reality housing is just swallowed up by landlords and rented to people who would be paying less on their mortgage than on rent.

So if the task at hand is to deliver affordable housing, yes the private market has failed. I never said that was their goal though. If anything the housing crisis is great for the property business. Bad for the people though. Much like how a purely private healhcare system would he great for hospitals, horrible for the people.

mammajamma

To be perfectly honest, I don't see how this can possibly be solved within current framework.

In my opinion, one of two things will happen. The entire country is going to be economically scuppered in the near future, thereby providing room to start over. Or else a new type of government is going to come along and deal with the problem within a new framework. Maybe they are the same thing!

Or in other words, something big is coming down the road, not only in terms of housing.

whats solved mean

will the "ten thousand" ""'homeless"" all get permanently housed anytime soon?

no

will the however many more hundred thousand "unable to meet their own housing need" all get permanently housed anytime soon?

no

if you buy the above figures and believe that the state/market should be based around reacting to them then it will never be solved

if you mean that the majority of lower middle class and up with a reasonable savings history and stable employment might aspire to ownership on reasonable terms within say the next decade, its a big ask but doable

Spanish Eyes

The only solution, over time, is to weaken the strength of Dublin as the hub of everything.

The former General Sec at DFinance said it a few years ago, I am sorry his name escapes me, (Moran maybe) but he mentioned Limerick (well he would he's from there!), but his thoughts were good.

Dublin is creaking at the seams. That is because a lot of people want to live and work there, it is the capital, so there we are.

Anyway I think another crash will sort it out, not that I want that to happen at all, but short of Government policy incentivising industries outside of Dublin near other Airports and such, it will only get worse.

And the lack of vision regarding public transport in Dublin is also an issue, possibly for another thread, but it does impact on people's quality of life hugely too.

a decent rail network and the tech infrastructure to work from home down the country certainly have places in any conversation

Idbatterim

kneemos wrote: »

Wouldn't be a fan of reducing quality for a negligible short term gain.

Salaries are stagnant, you’ll lose over half of any pay rise etc over 34,000 ish. The masses in Dublin just can’t afford a basic roof over their head. The government needs to change how things are done. This thread is going to just go around in circles. They need to reduce the cost of building , anything else is fantasy stuff ! Also Dublin bursting at the “seems “ there’s farmland in the m50 circle Ffs!

Spanish Eyes

Idbatterim wrote: »

Salaries are stagnant, you’ll lose over half of any pay rise etc over 34,000 ish. The masses in Dublin just can’t afford a basic roof over their head. The government needs to change how things are done. This thread is going to just go around in circles. They need to reduce the cost of building , anything else is fantasy stuff ! Also Dublin bursting at the “seems “ there’s farmland in the m50 circle Ffs!

Yes there is, but how does one get to the city, or the periphery without a car these days. And factor in kids school/childcare.

Commuting hell doesn't mean you are doing a trip from Tullamore/Mullingar or the likes to the Shmoke every day.They are possible getting to Dublin quicker on the train than many a person in Dublin loading up their cars with two or three kids, drop off to creche, and then drive to work.

Not sustainable.

pablohoney87

Idbatterim wrote: »

Salaries are stagnant, you’ll lose over half of any pay rise etc over 34,000 ish. The masses in Dublin just can’t afford a basic roof over their head. The government needs to change how things are done. This thread is going to just go around in circles. They need to reduce the cost of building , anything else is fantasy stuff ! Also Dublin bursting at the “seems “ there’s farmland in the m50 circle Ffs!

How can you reduce cost of buildig though? Land is set by supply and demand. Raw materials are not going to come down in cost. Labour? Doubt it. Regulations? Very much could end up with another pyrite debacle.

Is high rise the only solution?

Spanish Eyes

For a start, try getting from say Ashbourne to Tallaght without a car.

There are so many other examples I get weary now.

Sir Oxman

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/remembering-herbert-simms-the-man-who-rebuilt-dublin-1.3447370?fbclid=IwAR2PWMwZSgr-EZZgOGlU967ZMKZFvEfUtdXl7rjOZblE-2uy8qGmfsyneYQ

hatrickpatrick

mammajamma wrote: »

I agree with the "radical" part. And that's the problem with extremes, who knows what form it will take?!

But I think we can agree that current direction is heading into oblivion!

That said, I think its too easy to blame one side of a political ideology, especially when the waters are so muddied as to what is left and right when it comes to our current government and opposition. If anything, they come across as a monolith, neither left or right, but simply "their own thing"

On that basis, I think its fair to say that no matter what happens, it certainly isn't going to be current political climate that provides answers.

Fair points. When I say "right wing ideology", I mean specifically the idea that the free market matters more than individual quality of life, and that the government does not have a role in the upkeep of individual quality of life like it had in the 20th century.

Spanish Eyes

Sir Oxman wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/remembering-herbert-simms-the-man-who-rebuilt-dublin-1.3447370?fbclid=IwAR2PWMwZSgr-EZZgOGlU967ZMKZFvEfUtdXl7rjOZblE-2uy8qGmfsyneYQ

Heard some of his flat complexes are being demolished in order to provide better accommodation.

But for whom?

Those who work in the city, or those who live in Council properties without working?

Seems to me that social housing should only be provided within the Canals for those working and contributing.

Does it make sense that flat complexes in Dublin are provided to those who will never work or contribute, some exceptions are there I know. Inherited tenancies maybe.

I am not trying to be inflammatory (although some may think so!), but I really think that social housing in the City should only be allocated to those working, under the HAP or whatever. Those not working may have to move outside the M50 ring eventually. It is just not right that those who are working have to commute for hours every day, whilst those who do not, can live in the city centre for differential rent.

pablohoney87

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Heard some of his flat complexes are being demolished in order to provide better accommodation.

But for whom?

Those who work in the city, or those who live in Council properties without working?

Seems to me that social housing should only be provided within the Canals for those working and contributing.

Does it make sense that flat complexes in Dublin are provided to those who will never work or contribute, some exceptions are there I know. Inherited tenancies maybe.

I am not trying to be inflammatory (although some may think so!), but I really think that social housing in the City should only be allocated to those working, under the HAP or whatever. Those not working may have to move outside the M50 ring eventually. It is just not right that those who are working have to commute for hours every day, whilst those who do not, can live in the city centre for differential rent.

Pretty much agree. Theres plenty of ghost estates and empty houses being turned down all over the country that are suitable for families.

It makes sense if they have no record or intention of working to locate them to these areas. Its an everybody wins situation. These areas have a new population supplying small local businesses with customers. Schools in the areas will be given extra resources with the incresed population, family has a place to live and the housig list is shortened taking people put of hotels costing the govenment.

The_Kew_Tour

Sadly not in the short term, for whole host of reasons.

James Brown

mammajamma wrote: »

Following on from the thread where yet another all-time record has been smashed in rental prices, does anyone seriously think that this is going to be solved?

Combine the years upon years of the government waffling about "tackling" it, with records being consistently broken, and then to add fuel to the fire, this is the very first "key point" from the national planning framework for 2040...

"Guide the future development of Ireland, taking into account a projected 1 million increase in our population, the need to create 660,000 additional jobs to achieve full employment and a need for 550,000 more homes by 2040"

The great "vision" can be read here http://npf.ie/draft-of-ireland-2040/

I mean, are they literally laughing at us behind closed doors? This is so preposterous its surely a joke?

Fine Gael and their friends are making a killing with property. They've no will to 'solve' it. Also it helps the economy too, so joe soap can go get f***ed.

hatrickpatrick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Heard some of his flat complexes are being demolished in order to provide better accommodation.

But for whom?

Those who work in the city, or those who live in Council properties without working?

Seems to me that social housing should only be provided within the Canals for those working and contributing.

Does it make sense that flat complexes in Dublin are provided to those who will never work or contribute, some exceptions are there I know. Inherited tenancies maybe.

I am not trying to be inflammatory (although some may think so!), but I really think that social housing in the City should only be allocated to those working, under the HAP or whatever. Those not working may have to move outside the M50 ring eventually. It is just not right that those who are working have to commute for hours every day, whilst those who do not, can live in the city centre for differential rent.

Why does it have to be a zero sum game though? We should be building enough that we don't have to choose between who gets to live in their hometown and who doesn't.

pablohoney87

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why does it have to be a zero sum game though? We should be building enough that we don't have to choose between who gets to live in their hometown and who doesn't.

And who builds it for how much?
Land, resources etc. Is a zero sum game.

Assetbacked

One big problem in Dublin is the increase in jobs. The vast majority of development the past few years has been office space and more and more companies are expanding but not actually adding any housing.

For example, last week Facebook announced plans to move to a 5,000 campus in Dublin 4 but have no plans to build a few thousand apartments there. Alternatively, stop allowing office space to be built. The government needs to step in, declare the situation an emergency and get the apartments built in Dublin. Unfortunately Fine Gael have zero appetite for this so we will need to vote a government that has the balls to do it.

hatrickpatrick

pablohoney87 wrote: »

And who builds it for how much?
Land, resources etc. Is a zero sum game.

The state already has those resources, it is just criminally misusing them. We should be building public housing to a higher density and for a much wider category of clients, not just those on the very margins of society. Imagine a high density development like Ballymun, but with a mixed residency and infrastructure? We should be building things like that all over the place IMO. And those who commit crimes and make them unpleasant to live in should be evicted from them and re-housed in prison, where they belong.

hatrickpatrick

Assetbacked wrote: »

One big problem in Dublin is the increase in jobs. The vast majority of development the past few years has been office space and more and more companies are expanding but not actually adding any housing.

For example, last week Facebook announced plans to move to a 5,000 campus in Dublin 4 but have no plans to build a few thousand apartments there. Alternatively, stop allowing office space to be built. The government needs to step in, declare the situation an emergency and get the apartments built in Dublin. Unfortunately Fine Gael have zero appetite for this so we will need to vote a government that has the balls to do it.

This is definitely an issue. And a very basic one at that, IMO - hell, if anyone remembers playing the game Sim City in the 1990s, having an imbalance of commercial and industrial developments versus residential developments was the easiest way to instantly lose and have to start the game over. It's by no means a head scratcher. And the fact that it's such simple logic would imply that the councils, with responsibility for zoning and for building social housing, are motivated by something other than actually serving the people who elected them. Who'd have thought it?

pablohoney87

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The state already has those resources, it is just criminally misusing them. We should be building public housing to a higher density and for a much wider category of clients, not just those on the very margins of society. Imagine a high density development like Ballymun, but with a mixed residency and infrastructure? We should be building things like that all over the place IMO. And those who commit crimes and make them unpleasant to live in should be evicted from them and re-housed in prison, where they belong.

Agree wih much of that. But FG and FF are pretty devoted to the open market. So as long as they are there the problem will remain.

hatrickpatrick

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Agree wih much of that. But FG and FF are pretty devoted to the open market. So as long as they are there the problem will remain.

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

FishOnABike

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The only solution, over time, is to weaken the strength of Dublin as the hub of everything.

The former General Sec at DFinance said it a few years ago, I am sorry his name escapes me, (Moran maybe) but he mentioned Limerick (well he would he's from there!), but his thoughts were good.

Dublin is creaking at the seams. That is because a lot of people want to live and work there, it is the capital, so there we are.

Anyway I think another crash will sort it out, not that I want that to happen at all, but short of Government policy incentivising industries outside of Dublin near other Airports and such, it will only get worse.

And the lack of vision regarding public transport in Dublin is also an issue, possibly for another thread, but it does impact on people's quality of life hugely too.

We did have a national spatial strategy at one time which would have helped in addressing the over concentration of development in Dublin and encouraged more balanced regional development but it fell by the wayside, largely due to political gombeenism.

pablohoney87

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

We have nobody really promoting the system of norway/denmark/finland who are among some of the few nations above us on freedom/wealth/happiness indices. I really think these are the countries to appropriately strike the balance of government control/taxation and private industry.

Wheeliebin30

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

The fact there is no real appetite for a radical left party in Ireland shows the overwhelming majority are quite happy with how things are going in the country.

Sounds harsh but it’s true.

pablohoney87

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The fact there is no real appetite for a radical left party in Ireland shows the overwhelming majority are quite happy with how things are going in the country.

Sounds harsh but it’s true.

A big issue though is that a centrist party like is so popular in scandanavia isnt radically left. Its centrist but people are so easily swayed now that everyone left of FF/FG is radically left.

Wheeliebin30

pablohoney87 wrote: »

We have nobody really promoting the system of norway/denmark/finland who are among some of the few nations above us on freedom/wealth/happiness indices. I really think these are the countries to appropriately strike the balance of government control/taxation and private industry.

You know Norway and Denmark have more homeless people than Ireland?

Seems they can’t even crack the great housing and homeless issue.

Spanish Eyes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

NO, sorry Left Wing and Liberal thought has led us to this pass.

Do not question anything, just pay for it for everyone else. You have no voice, if you rebel you will be denied a voice. We have seen this over the last few months regarding many issues. Silenced.

If anything, the working person, commuting for hours, paying a mortage, and another one for childcare needs is not allowed a voice at all. They should be able to moan and complain and rightly so.

pablohoney87

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You know Norway and Denmark have more homeless people than Ireland?

Seems they can’t even crack the great housing and homeless issue.

Norways is less and denmarks is slightly more per capita.

And they are handling it significantly better from what ive seen/heard and at least seem to be taking action rather than having a plan for 2040

Wheeliebin30

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Norways is less and denmarks is slightly more per capita.

And they are handling it significantly better from what ive seen/heard and at least seem to be taking action rather than having a plan for 2040

The plan for 2040 is because our population is growing.

Do you want them to have no plan for this??