Will the housing issue be solved?

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2018 07:47PM

mammajamma wrote: »

I agree with the "radical" part. And that's the problem with extremes, who knows what form it will take?!

But I think we can agree that current direction is heading into oblivion!

That said, I think its too easy to blame one side of a political ideology, especially when the waters are so muddied as to what is left and right when it comes to our current government and opposition. If anything, they come across as a monolith, neither left or right, but simply "their own thing"

On that basis, I think its fair to say that no matter what happens, it certainly isn't going to be current political climate that provides answers.

Fair points. When I say "right wing ideology", I mean specifically the idea that the free market matters more than individual quality of life, and that the government does not have a role in the upkeep of individual quality of life like it had in the 20th century.

Spanish Eyes · 12-11-2018 07:51PM

Sir Oxman wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/remembering-herbert-simms-the-man-who-rebuilt-dublin-1.3447370?fbclid=IwAR2PWMwZSgr-EZZgOGlU967ZMKZFvEfUtdXl7rjOZblE-2uy8qGmfsyneYQ

Heard some of his flat complexes are being demolished in order to provide better accommodation.

But for whom?

Those who work in the city, or those who live in Council properties without working?

Seems to me that social housing should only be provided within the Canals for those working and contributing.

Does it make sense that flat complexes in Dublin are provided to those who will never work or contribute, some exceptions are there I know. Inherited tenancies maybe.

I am not trying to be inflammatory (although some may think so!), but I really think that social housing in the City should only be allocated to those working, under the HAP or whatever. Those not working may have to move outside the M50 ring eventually. It is just not right that those who are working have to commute for hours every day, whilst those who do not, can live in the city centre for differential rent.

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 07:58PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Heard some of his flat complexes are being demolished in order to provide better accommodation.

But for whom?

Those who work in the city, or those who live in Council properties without working?

Seems to me that social housing should only be provided within the Canals for those working and contributing.

Does it make sense that flat complexes in Dublin are provided to those who will never work or contribute, some exceptions are there I know. Inherited tenancies maybe.

I am not trying to be inflammatory (although some may think so!), but I really think that social housing in the City should only be allocated to those working, under the HAP or whatever. Those not working may have to move outside the M50 ring eventually. It is just not right that those who are working have to commute for hours every day, whilst those who do not, can live in the city centre for differential rent.

Pretty much agree. Theres plenty of ghost estates and empty houses being turned down all over the country that are suitable for families.

It makes sense if they have no record or intention of working to locate them to these areas. Its an everybody wins situation. These areas have a new population supplying small local businesses with customers. Schools in the areas will be given extra resources with the incresed population, family has a place to live and the housig list is shortened taking people put of hotels costing the govenment.

The_Kew_Tour · 12-11-2018 07:59PM

Sadly not in the short term, for whole host of reasons.

James Brown · 12-11-2018 08:10PM

mammajamma wrote: »

Following on from the thread where yet another all-time record has been smashed in rental prices, does anyone seriously think that this is going to be solved?

Combine the years upon years of the government waffling about "tackling" it, with records being consistently broken, and then to add fuel to the fire, this is the very first "key point" from the national planning framework for 2040...

"Guide the future development of Ireland, taking into account a projected 1 million increase in our population, the need to create 660,000 additional jobs to achieve full employment and a need for 550,000 more homes by 2040"

The great "vision" can be read here http://npf.ie/draft-of-ireland-2040/

I mean, are they literally laughing at us behind closed doors? This is so preposterous its surely a joke?

Fine Gael and their friends are making a killing with property. They've no will to 'solve' it. Also it helps the economy too, so joe soap can go get f***ed.

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2018 08:14PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Heard some of his flat complexes are being demolished in order to provide better accommodation.

But for whom?

Those who work in the city, or those who live in Council properties without working?

Seems to me that social housing should only be provided within the Canals for those working and contributing.

Does it make sense that flat complexes in Dublin are provided to those who will never work or contribute, some exceptions are there I know. Inherited tenancies maybe.

I am not trying to be inflammatory (although some may think so!), but I really think that social housing in the City should only be allocated to those working, under the HAP or whatever. Those not working may have to move outside the M50 ring eventually. It is just not right that those who are working have to commute for hours every day, whilst those who do not, can live in the city centre for differential rent.

Why does it have to be a zero sum game though? We should be building enough that we don't have to choose between who gets to live in their hometown and who doesn't.

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 08:17PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why does it have to be a zero sum game though? We should be building enough that we don't have to choose between who gets to live in their hometown and who doesn't.

And who builds it for how much?
Land, resources etc. Is a zero sum game.

Assetbacked · 12-11-2018 08:25PM

One big problem in Dublin is the increase in jobs. The vast majority of development the past few years has been office space and more and more companies are expanding but not actually adding any housing.

For example, last week Facebook announced plans to move to a 5,000 campus in Dublin 4 but have no plans to build a few thousand apartments there. Alternatively, stop allowing office space to be built. The government needs to step in, declare the situation an emergency and get the apartments built in Dublin. Unfortunately Fine Gael have zero appetite for this so we will need to vote a government that has the balls to do it.

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2018 08:27PM

pablohoney87 wrote: »

And who builds it for how much?
Land, resources etc. Is a zero sum game.

The state already has those resources, it is just criminally misusing them. We should be building public housing to a higher density and for a much wider category of clients, not just those on the very margins of society. Imagine a high density development like Ballymun, but with a mixed residency and infrastructure? We should be building things like that all over the place IMO. And those who commit crimes and make them unpleasant to live in should be evicted from them and re-housed in prison, where they belong.

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2018 08:30PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

One big problem in Dublin is the increase in jobs. The vast majority of development the past few years has been office space and more and more companies are expanding but not actually adding any housing.

For example, last week Facebook announced plans to move to a 5,000 campus in Dublin 4 but have no plans to build a few thousand apartments there. Alternatively, stop allowing office space to be built. The government needs to step in, declare the situation an emergency and get the apartments built in Dublin. Unfortunately Fine Gael have zero appetite for this so we will need to vote a government that has the balls to do it.

This is definitely an issue. And a very basic one at that, IMO - hell, if anyone remembers playing the game Sim City in the 1990s, having an imbalance of commercial and industrial developments versus residential developments was the easiest way to instantly lose and have to start the game over. It's by no means a head scratcher. And the fact that it's such simple logic would imply that the councils, with responsibility for zoning and for building social housing, are motivated by something other than actually serving the people who elected them. Who'd have thought it?

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 08:35PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The state already has those resources, it is just criminally misusing them. We should be building public housing to a higher density and for a much wider category of clients, not just those on the very margins of society. Imagine a high density development like Ballymun, but with a mixed residency and infrastructure? We should be building things like that all over the place IMO. And those who commit crimes and make them unpleasant to live in should be evicted from them and re-housed in prison, where they belong.

Agree wih much of that. But FG and FF are pretty devoted to the open market. So as long as they are there the problem will remain.

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2018 08:41PM

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Agree wih much of that. But FG and FF are pretty devoted to the open market. So as long as they are there the problem will remain.

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

FishOnABike · 12-11-2018 08:43PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The only solution, over time, is to weaken the strength of Dublin as the hub of everything.

The former General Sec at DFinance said it a few years ago, I am sorry his name escapes me, (Moran maybe) but he mentioned Limerick (well he would he's from there!), but his thoughts were good.

Dublin is creaking at the seams. That is because a lot of people want to live and work there, it is the capital, so there we are.

Anyway I think another crash will sort it out, not that I want that to happen at all, but short of Government policy incentivising industries outside of Dublin near other Airports and such, it will only get worse.

And the lack of vision regarding public transport in Dublin is also an issue, possibly for another thread, but it does impact on people's quality of life hugely too.

We did have a national spatial strategy at one time which would have helped in addressing the over concentration of development in Dublin and encouraged more balanced regional development but it fell by the wayside, largely due to political gombeenism.

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 08:44PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

We have nobody really promoting the system of norway/denmark/finland who are among some of the few nations above us on freedom/wealth/happiness indices. I really think these are the countries to appropriately strike the balance of government control/taxation and private industry.

Wheeliebin30 · 12-11-2018 08:46PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

The fact there is no real appetite for a radical left party in Ireland shows the overwhelming majority are quite happy with how things are going in the country.

Sounds harsh but it’s true.

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 08:47PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The fact there is no real appetite for a radical left party in Ireland shows the overwhelming majority are quite happy with how things are going in the country.

Sounds harsh but it’s true.

A big issue though is that a centrist party like is so popular in scandanavia isnt radically left. Its centrist but people are so easily swayed now that everyone left of FF/FG is radically left.

Wheeliebin30 · 12-11-2018 08:47PM

pablohoney87 wrote: »

We have nobody really promoting the system of norway/denmark/finland who are among some of the few nations above us on freedom/wealth/happiness indices. I really think these are the countries to appropriately strike the balance of government control/taxation and private industry.

You know Norway and Denmark have more homeless people than Ireland?

Seems they can’t even crack the great housing and homeless issue.

Spanish Eyes · 12-11-2018 08:47PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I meant by radical political change. Someone needs to start up a genuine left-wing party akin to the pre-Reagan/Thatcher political mainstream of "new labour" style centrism, and force the two dominant parties into opposition.

NO, sorry Left Wing and Liberal thought has led us to this pass.

Do not question anything, just pay for it for everyone else. You have no voice, if you rebel you will be denied a voice. We have seen this over the last few months regarding many issues. Silenced.

If anything, the working person, commuting for hours, paying a mortage, and another one for childcare needs is not allowed a voice at all. They should be able to moan and complain and rightly so.

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 08:54PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You know Norway and Denmark have more homeless people than Ireland?

Seems they can’t even crack the great housing and homeless issue.

Norways is less and denmarks is slightly more per capita.

And they are handling it significantly better from what ive seen/heard and at least seem to be taking action rather than having a plan for 2040

Wheeliebin30 · 12-11-2018 08:58PM

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Norways is less and denmarks is slightly more per capita.

And they are handling it significantly better from what ive seen/heard and at least seem to be taking action rather than having a plan for 2040

The plan for 2040 is because our population is growing.

Do you want them to have no plan for this??

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 09:02PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The plan for 2040 is because our population is growing.

Do you want them to have no plan for this??

No i would like a legit plan for the government to build social housing or a compitent effort at decentralisation.

Because attenpts at both in the past have failed down to a trust or dependence on the private market or outright incompetence from the government failing to attract investiment to the midlands and west of ireland.

Spanish Eyes · 12-11-2018 09:02PM

Those in inner City flat complexes will not complain. Why would they?

Ironically the inner city flats in other capital cities are only the preserve of the very rich.

Go figure now.

Idbatterim · 12-11-2018 09:13PM

Populations all over the world are flocking to cities. We only have one of any scale !

Spanish Eyes · 12-11-2018 09:19PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Populations all over the world are flocking to cities. We only have one of any scale !

It is the subsidised housing for those who do not work is the issue really. Isn't it?

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 09:22PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is the subsidised housing for those who do not work is the issue really. Isn't it?

The problem arises though when too much industry is near too little housing and propert becomes too expensive for unskilled workers which are still needed in these industries. Cleaners, warehouse workers, catering etc. The jobs are there but the people cant afford to live there

12-11-2018 09:29PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Salaries are stagnant, you’ll lose over half of any pay rise etc over 34,000 ish.

still raving eh

you dont lose it. you pay taxes.

you have suggestions about how a govt will function without taxation, do you?

what party you think should be running things

whats yr vision for solving any of these issues

spittle

Spanish Eyes · 12-11-2018 09:31PM

pablohoney87 wrote: »

The problem arises though when too much industry is near too little housing and propert becomes too expensive for unskilled workers which are still needed in these industries. Cleaners, warehouse workers, catering etc. The jobs are there but the people cant afford to live there

But people who do not work can still avail of prime properties in the City Centre. I do realise it is not a good theme, but still, it is not good for the working person either who cannot avail of it.

pablohoney87 · 12-11-2018 09:37PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But people who do not work can still avail of prime properties in the City Centre. I do realise it is not a good theme, but still, it is not good for the working person either who cannot avail of it.

I think the issue is bigger than people demanding their social housing in certain locations, but yes, it is a factor. Building of affordable housing near urbam areas is still going to be necessary while wages are stagnant.

suicide_circus · 12-11-2018 09:39PM

too many people rely on homelessness for their livelihoods so I doubt that will ever be "solved".

jay0109 · 12-11-2018 09:49PM

In response to the OPs' question, no, it will never be solved. Not just of r Ireland but for any prosperous western nation.

Ireland is a small country with much of the economy based around Dublin. When Ireland is going well, hundreds of thousands can come here unannounced from within the EU. And we still somehow manage to import hundreds of thousands more from Asia, Africa, Sth America.
So in a boom we're a housing shortage, high rents, high sale prices.

When we have a downturn and jobs dry up, not many non-nationals who come here actually leave but most of the inward migration dries up. This economic downturn usually coincides with high housing completions meaning an oversupply. This leads to mortgage defaults and bank difficulties, a fall in rents and landlords getting into arrears etc etc.

So how can any Govt plan accurately for it's country's housing needs when they have an open border and especially when that country is very small. It's impossible and we're destined to have ongoing housing issues as the World becomes more and more globalised

Will the housing issue be solved?

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