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Hibernia College PMEP - Stick it out?

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  • I think that might be an error as there are a lot of secondary subjects there. I know a few of those tutors and... they haven't left! Probably they are updating a reserve panel in case a tutor is sick or leaves. I saw a similar call for tutors back in 2014, it was an online thing with dropdown boxes of many subjects. Not great to be advertising as actual vacancies though.

    Mary I is probably a real job.
    I wouldn't say that there are secondary subjects in that list, all would be part of primary teacher training.




  • I wouldn't say that there are secondary subjects in that list, all would be part of primary teacher training.

    Music
    Drama
    Visual arts
    Physical Education
    Irish
    English
    Maths
    ICT
    Religion Education
    Theology
    Early Childhood Education
    Social Personal and Health Education
    History
    Geography
    Science

    A lot of secondary subjects there! But accepting that, I get that they are typical parts of the primary curriculum. Is it normal for other colleges to hire all those individual tutors with those specialisims?




  • I am a MIC graduate and have had quite a few students through my room at this stage. There is no comparison between the MIC students and Hibernia in quality of the training. The expecatations laid upon the MIC students seems to be much higher than the Hibernias in every respect. Hibernia is doing it's students no favours, they are focusing on quantity over quality every time.




  • I am a MIC graduate and have had quite a few students through my room at this stage. There is no comparison between the MIC students and Hibernia in quality of the training. The expecatations laid upon the MIC students seems to be much higher than the Hibernias in every respect. Hibernia is doing it's students no favours, they are focusing on quantity over quality every time.

    Ah that old chestnut... I to X College and I find the students from there are far superior to College Y, is as old as the hills. I've heard this snobbery from Principals/Deputies/teachers who went to...
    UL
    TCD
    Mary I
    St Pats
    Mater Dei
    UCD
    DCU

    ...all maintaining that the quality of all other graduates was never quite as good as the ones where they 'coincidentally' went to college.
    Similarly I've heard criticisms from student who went to those colleges also.

    So maybe if we pick it apart a bit.
    There is no comparison between the MIC students and Hibernia in quality of the training.

    What exactly do you mean by quality, could you provide an example?
    The expecatations laid upon the MIC students seems to be much higher than the Hibernias in every respect.

    What do you mean by higher expectations?
    Hibernia is doing it's students no favours, they are focusing on quantity over quality every time.

    That's a bit of hyperbola saying it's 'every time' as if you've measured it 'every time'. Yes they do take in significant numbers compared to other courses. But when I did my 'HDIP' (not in Hibernia) I remember the lecture theatres jam packed too. But maybe you're criticising the actual lectures themselves, or the content you'll have to expand a bit more on what you mean.




  • Hi, as you are now in Hibernia have you been able to ascertain more information about the course? I am considering it next year and I would like to find out more but I agree they are pretty tight with the information. I would like to know about lecturing staff, numbers of yearly graduates, prospects for graduates etc. Any info or direct me to it?

    thanks

    I finished the HDip (second level) in Hibernia five years ago and I walked into a full time job after I graduated. Part of that was luck and being in the right place at the right time. I also graduated with a good result.

    Initially when I started the course I thought the idea of an upfront payment with no chance of a refund to be quite daunting. I wanted to get out of the industry I was in and the part-time nature of Hibernia suited me.

    It's hard to say what prospects for graduates are in any discipline. At the moment it seems like there is a demand for teachers and with a growing population that should continue. The college that you attend won't influence this.

    As for Hibernia, most of the lecturers were current teachers or members of school management (year heads, principals, deputies). I found all of them to be good. One or two were outstanding (the subject lecturers). As for the course, I rarely attended online lectures as they didn't suit my work schedule. I also struggled to make some of the Saturday classes. Instead of attending, I'd study the material hard and make sure to do required reading. All video lectures were made available online after the lecture, so you could re-watch them if you wanted to.

    IMO the college side of teacher training is a load of pot. We learned about psychologists from the early days of education, the history of education in Ireland etc. Most of it isn't relative to teaching today, and all of the colleges taught those topics at the time. My best learning and the most relative to my career today was all done on the job, either through placement or after graduating. Don't get into the "which college is better?" debate, because it just results in irrelevant nonsense about why X is better than Y. Choose the college that suits you.

    I've spoken to a lot of current MA students from various colleges, and they've all told me that the second year of their course seems very much tacked on. One of the UCD lads has no lectures after January and feels that the few months of work in year two is just a repeat of year one.

    TLDR; Hibernia's course is as good as the next. If distance learning suits you, go for it. Just make sure to motivate yourself to put in the hard work and you won't have an issue. IMO it doesn't matter what college you go to, as long as you get the piece of paper at the end of the day.


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  • Ah that old chestnut... I to X College and




    What exactly do you mean by quality, could you provide an example?



    What do you mean by higher expectations?
    I'll start with higher expectations. The MIC inspectors demand more of the students eg in their planning, detail of lesson plans and in fact general planning, they are subjected to a more vigorous inspection by the inspector when in the classroom. I have seen MIC inspectors go through every page of an MIC students planning folder and nitpick. I've never witnessed this with Hibernia inspectors. MIC inspectors come unannounced meaning the pressure to deliver high quality lessons is ever present. Hibernia students know when their inspectors are coming. Any MIC inspector I have had in my room will ask the teacher for their opinion on the student, I have never had the same from a Hibernia inspector.



    Moving on to quality, for a start the OP states that lectures are online on a type of conference call style where it is very hard to hear. That is poor in any mans language. It is hard to argue with a lecture present in the room with 50 students where questions can be asked and answered. Speaking to my last student, I asked had they done much for SESE science. A one day workshop and that was it in the whole 2 year programme. An MIC student will get at least 2 modules on this. I have had colleagues in the past whom are simply not fit to teach but have degrees from Hibernia. Any teacher worth their salt should know what a CVC is, I have had a Hibernia colleague ask me what this was. How you can go through 2 years of teacher training and come out not knowing this is beyond comprehension. In the traditional colleges these people would have been encouraged to explore other options at an early stage of their training. I know this as a small number of my classmates in MIC had this happen and they were all the better for it. I know I may sound very anti Hibernia and in many ways I am but there are many people whom are fantastic teachers whom have gone down the Hibernia route so it is not fair to tar everybody with the same brush but I will part on the words a Hibernia trained colleague whom was originally a secondary school teacher, "Hibernia is a joke of a college compared to the rest."




  • Ah that old chestnut... I to X College and I find the students from there are far superior to College Y, is as old as the hills. I've heard this snobbery from Principals/Deputies/teachers who went to...
    UL
    TCD
    Mary I
    St Pats
    Mater Dei
    UCD
    DCU

    ...all maintaining that the quality of all other graduates was never quite as good as the ones where they 'coincidentally' went to college.
    Similarly I've heard criticisms from student who went to those colleges also.

    You can compare Mary I and St Pat's graduates and SP grads saying they might be some how better than MI. When it comes to Hibernia it is a different story completely. Because they allow in anyone who applies they are going to have much weaker and much more mediocre students compared to the public- funded bodies. I remember in my cohort that it was full of people who shouldn't have been on the course. Some of them shouldn't even have had their undergraduate degrees imho. One of my colleagues thought Africa was a country and another didn't know how to count in Irish. When you have a bigger group of students and low standards you are going to find many more weaker students that is just pure statistics.




  • I'll start with higher expectations. The MIC inspectors demand more of the students eg in their planning, detail of lesson plans and in fact general planning, they are subjected to a more vigorous inspection by the inspector when in the classroom. I have seen MIC inspectors go through every page of an MIC students planning folder and nitpick. I've never witnessed this with Hibernia inspectors. MIC inspectors come unannounced meaning the pressure to deliver high quality lessons is ever present. Hibernia students know when their inspectors are coming. Any MIC inspector I have had in my room will ask the teacher for their opinion on the student, I have never had the same from a Hibernia inspector.



    Moving on to quality, for a start the OP states that lectures are online on a type of conference call style where it is very hard to hear. That is poor in any mans language. It is hard to argue with a lecture present in the room with 50 students where questions can be asked and answered. Speaking to my last student, I asked had they done much for SESE science. A one day workshop and that was it in the whole 2 year programme. An MIC student will get at least 2 modules on this. I have had colleagues in the past whom are simply not fit to teach but have degrees from Hibernia. Any teacher worth their salt should know what a CVC is, I have had a Hibernia colleague ask me what this was. How you can go through 2 years of teacher training and come out not knowing this is beyond comprehension. In the traditional colleges these people would have been encouraged to explore other options at an early stage of their training. I know this as a small number of my classmates in MIC had this happen and they were all the better for it. I know I may sound very anti Hibernia and in many ways I am but there are many people whom are fantastic teachers whom have gone down the Hibernia route so it is not fair to tar everybody with the same brush but I will part on the words a Hibernia trained colleague whom was originally a secondary school teacher, "Hibernia is a joke of a college compared to the rest."


    I have just recently graduated from the PME Primary with Hibernia. I can categorically state that Hibernia inspections are incredibly rigorous. During every inspection I received across the three placements, my folder was always checked very closely and lessons from previous weeks were commented on etc. I distinctly remember an inspector going through a series of past lesson plans and asking me to justify my use of some words within learning objectives etc. This experience was similarly shared by classmates in different schools with different inspectors.

    As for knowing when inspections were happening, not once during my 10 inspections did I have any idea that the inspector was coming to me. Even the very first inspection of the first teaching practice is unannounced. I'm sure individual inspectors differ in the amount of hints they might provide a student with, however, it is the college policy that all inspections are unannounced. Also, Hibernia very often send grade moderators and academic staff around to visit students and provide additional checks on folders, resources etc. Three of my friends received these visits.

    While I am not a fan of the Hibernia model and how it conducts its business, I feel it is necessary to provide an insight from the point of view of a student who has recently gone through the process.




  • Boeing777 wrote: »
    I have just recently graduated from the PME Primary with Hibernia. I can categorically state that Hibernia inspections are incredibly rigorous. During every inspection I received across the three placements, my folder was always checked very closely and lessons from previous weeks were commented on etc. I distinctly remember an inspector going through a series of past lesson plans and asking me to justify my use of some words within learning objectives etc. This experience was similarly shared by classmates in different schools with different inspectors.

    As for knowing when inspections were happening, not once during my 10 inspections did I have any idea that the inspector was coming to me. Even the very first inspection of the first teaching practice is unannounced. I'm sure individual inspectors differ in the amount of hints they might provide a student with, however, it is the college policy that all inspections are unannounced. Also, Hibernia very often send grade moderators and academic staff around to visit students and provide additional checks on folders, resources etc. Three of my friends received these visits.

    While I am not a fan of the Hibernia model and how it conducts its business, I feel it is necessary to provide an insight from the point of view of a student who has recently gone through the process.

    The unannounced visits are a recent development then because this was clearly not the case 3 years ago when I had my second last Hibernia student, nor was it the case when I completed my final MIC placement at the same time as a Hibernia student. As it happens we compared folders at the time and the difference in expectations leveled upon me by my inspector compared to theirs was stark. My last student submitted their plans in order for me to use them for my Cuntas Míosúil and in my opinion had I submitted them to an MIC inspector I would have been hauled over the coals. This was this time last year. I have another Hib student soon, I will be happy to be stood corrected but in my experience the expectations just don't match.

    Boeing, I am sure you are more than capable to teach a class but I have seen it from the otherside of the desk. The problem doesn't lie with the people completing the course, it lies with Hibernia being a business and their indifference. Ive never heard of a Hibernia student failing TP, cant say the same for other colleges. Can you?




  • Just wanted to quickly point out that all of my visits were unannounced and I did my training a number of years ago. We had a regional group WhatsApp group so it was fairly easy to figure out where the teaching practice supervisor was and when to expect them tbh. It didn't feel unannounced to me.

    Hibernia College has made some great teachers not because of the course but in spite of it. My time in school and with my class teacher was of more benefit than the out of date online lectures and webinars. There are great people working for them as well but its mission is clear; make a lot of money and watch standards slipping across the board.


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  • Just wanted to quickly point out that all of my visits were unannounced and I did my training a number of years ago. We had a regional group WhatsApp group so it was fairly easy to figure out where the teaching practice supervisor was and when to expect them tbh. It didn't feel unannounced to me.

    Hibernia College has made some great teachers not because of the course but in spite of it. My time in school and with my class teacher was of more benefit than the out of date online lectures and webinars. There are great people working for them as well but its mission is clear; make a lot of money and watch standards slipping across the board.

    Nail on the head. I work with some fantastic teachers and they are a product of Hibernia but as you say in spite of it.




  • Boeing, I am sure you are more than capable to teach a class but I have seen it from the otherside of the desk. The problem doesn't lie with the people completing the course, it lies with Hibernia being a business and their indifference. Ive never heard of a Hibernia student failing TP, cant say the same for other colleges. Can you?


    All colleges are treated like a business JB Jr. You'd be a fool to think otherwise.

    A friend's ex-girlfriend failed Hibernia TP, and I know of another guy who failed at UCD. The HDip/PME is not difficult and you'd want to be a special case to fail TP. I know too may people who got a 2.1 with ease and we all work with terrible teachers who got by.

    I honestly don't think you can say one course is better than another. It's just petty IMHO. All have their pros and cons. I've never met a teacher who has told me their time in college made them.




  • Notorious wrote: »
    All colleges are treated like a business JB Jr. You'd be a fool to think otherwise.

    A friend's ex-girlfriend failed Hibernia TP, and I know of another guy who failed at UCD. The HDip/PME is not difficult and you'd want to be a special case to fail TP. I know too may people who got a 2.1 with ease and we all work with terrible teachers who got by.

    I honestly don't think you can say one course is better than another. It's just petty IMHO. All have their pros and cons. I've never met a teacher who has told me their time in college made them.

    I am well aware that all colleges are run as businesses thank you. However MIC et al are not businesses. Hibernia is a business. Money comes first, all too often at the expense of the student as far as I can see.

    I feel I am qualified to say one course is better than the other without being petty. I have double figures in years of teaching experience at this stage and have had a student teacher nearly every year I have been in the classroom so I have a made real world observations on students from all institutions and the fact is that Hibernia students are not prepared to the same level nor standard as the traditional training colleges. That is not their fault, if you are a good teacher you will be a good teacher but Hibernia need to rise up and start implementing higher standards for not only entry selection but also the quality of their pedagogy. And that comes from the mouth of more than one Hibernia colleague, not mine.




  • I will shortly be starting my last school placement with Hibernia and can 100% confirm that, certainly for the primary teacher training, all inspector visits are unannounced.
    All of my last four inspectors have gone through my planning folder, resource folders, assessment notebooks with a fine toothcomb so much so that teachers in the school commented that some of the questions and level of checking was more akin to a WSE approach than a student teacher inspection.
    As far as I am aware the other training colleges do not have to provide lesson plans the night before each teaching day. Hibernia students must upload all lesson plans by midnight the night before and you have no idea what lesson you will be inspected in. I believe students from other colleges can have one or two fail safe lessons stored to be produced when inspected but if I'm wrong in this I apologise.
    The volume of paperwork is immense during TP with Hibernia. Students from other colleges on TP at the same time couldn't believe what was required by Hibernia.
    It's also untrue that Hibernia do not fail students on TP, I know of two personally who did fail.




  • I am well aware that all colleges are run as businesses thank you. However MIC et al are not businesses. Hibernia is a business. Money comes first, all too often at the expense of the student as far as I can see.

    I feel I am qualified to say one course is better than the other without being petty. I have double figures in years of teaching experience at this stage and have had a student teacher nearly every year I have been in the classroom so I have a made real world observations on students from all institutions and the fact is that Hibernia students are not prepared to the same level nor standard as the traditional training colleges. That is not their fault, if you are a good teacher you will be a good teacher but Hibernia need to rise up and start implementing higher standards for not only entry selection but also the quality of their pedagogy. And that comes from the mouth of more than one Hibernia colleague, not mine.

    I'd defer to your experience of some Hibernia students and their alleged 'deficient' college practices (although others have countered it with theirs).

    But if you've had so many disappointments with the college and their students, then why do you continue to let them in the door, What benefit are they to your school?




  • I'd defer to your experience of some Hibernia students and their alleged 'deficient' college practices (although others have countered it with theirs).

    But if you've had so many disappointments with the college and their students, then why do you continue to let them in the door, What benefit are they to your school?

    I am not in school management so the choice is not mine to be made.

    I know I have pointed out a lot of deficiencies as I see and interpret them as a professional but I will stand over my posts, they were all of the argument that the standards applied in the Hibernia course are not, IMO, to the same levels as the traditional teaching colleges. Hibernia can produce quality teachers, there is no denying that however as several other posters whom have completed Hibernia courses have said, the quality of tuition nor the level of student support is not always as good as it can be. There is also a view amongst many that Hibernia is the option you take if you can't get into MIC or Pat's PME courses as they are more likely to take anyone. I will stand corrected on the unannounced visit's but this was not always the procedure, of that I am certain. MIC, Pat's et al have their faults it has to pointed out but it is my opinion that the very nature of Hibernia delivering courses for profit first and teaching second can only have a detrimental effect on the teaching and learning.




  • cloud1969 wrote: »
    I will shortly be starting my last school placement with Hibernia and can 100% confirm that, certainly for the primary teacher training, all inspector visits are unannounced.
    All of my last four inspectors have gone through my planning folder, resource folders, assessment notebooks with a fine toothcomb so much so that teachers in the school commented that some of the questions and level of checking was more akin to a WSE approach than a student teacher inspection.
    As far as I am aware the other training colleges do not have to provide lesson plans the night before each teaching day. Hibernia students must upload all lesson plans by midnight the night before and you have no idea what lesson you will be inspected in. I believe students from other colleges can have one or two fail safe lessons stored to be produced when inspected but if I'm wrong in this I apologise.
    The volume of paperwork is immense during TP with Hibernia. Students from other colleges on TP at the same time couldn't believe what was required by Hibernia.
    It's also untrue that Hibernia do not fail students on TP, I know of two personally who did fail.


    This was my exact experience of Hibernia when I completed the course 10 years ago. I have never been out of work since I graduated and became permanent a few years ago. All visits were unannounced and I also got grade moderators. Everything was checked very thoroughly. I know a few people who have failed the course, likewise I know of trainees from other colleges who were also failed. Other teachers often commented that my notes and plans were expected to be much more detailed than theirs had been (they had went the traditional route)

    One thing I will say is that the teachers who went the traditional route seemed to have a more in depth knowledge of the subjects. Sometimes I felt actual teaching methodologies were ignored during the onsites. Also I remember on my first TP we hadn't had any Geography lessons, yet were expected to teach it! Most of my learning came from teaching practice which I would say is the same with all courses.

    Also, not everyone gets accepted into Hibernia (unless it has changed). You need to meet the Irish requirements and then sit quite difficult English and Irish interviews. I did Hibernia because I would have had a 2 hour commute each way to go to Dublin, and it wouldn't have been possible for me to move. At the time the course was only 18 months and I managed to work for the first 6 months so it suited me perfectly.

    I don't see a huge difference between the colleges, except for snobbery surrounding certain ones. I've had excellent TP students in my class from all the colleges and I've had rubbish ones from all of them also.




  • ..it is my opinion that the very nature of Hibernia delivering courses for profit first and teaching second can only have a detrimental effect on the teaching and learning.

    I don't think I'm being cynical when I say that money comes first with every college or university from Hibernia to UCD. I've never heard any decent teacher crediting their success to the college they attended. I'd argue that every college teaches for profit first, so I'd disagree with your perception that Hibernia's nature has a detrimental effect on teaching and learning.
    I feel I am qualified to say one course is better than the other without being petty. I have double figures in years of teaching experience...

    If I had a euro for every time I've heard a senior teacher quoting their years in the job as a way to qualify their opinion, I'd be a rich man.




  • OP have things improved any bit for you?

    A friend of mine who is a principal said to me recently that there are a lot of permanent teachers taking career breaks to go traveling/save a deposit or to have children. She said that some principals are starting to look more favorable at older Hibernia graduates as they are less likely to need all or any of these. Thought it was interesting.




  • Older graduates may have been putting off having a family until they finished. Any younger teachers that I know who have gone abroad are generally not in a permanent position. The "career break" tourist thing is a bit of spin from the DES to shift blame on to teachers for those leaving the profession. I know of three jobs for the rest of the year for which no-one even applied.


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  • Byhookorcrook, where were those jobs. Does that mean all teachers are working if nobody applied.




  • It probably means they either couldn't afford to move to the area the jobs where, have went to other countries , or have a shortage subject.




  • It means that no-one wanted to come to rural Leinster for a job where they couldn't do their Dip (primary)




  • The snobbery in this is bizarre and seems to be a very Irish thing, the only outcome that matter are for the children being educated. There is no guarantee of a job the same with any masters, 14k is a lot of money, in todays society information is very accessible.
    Anyone doing the course know what they are getting in to and if they have paid out 14k and did not realist how many are doing the course, did not fully comprehend it was largely self-directed learning and the amount of work involved, did not fully realise that Hibernian is a money making business, not a traditional college, though they would have no trouble getting a job straight away then they need far more help than an internet discussion site could give them.

    I know someone doing the course they are well aware it could be years of subbing before they get a job.

    Education is never a waste.




  • OP have things improved any bit for you?

    Hi.
    Yes, things have improved a bit. I've learned to weed out the important parts of the course and see what is necessary and what is isn't. I tend to agree with a poster here that all colleges will have graduates from poor to excellent in spite of the college so I hope that the 'these graduates are better than those graduates' argument will discontinue. I did a placement (observation) in a school and my contact and experience with actual teachers in the job was very informative. I think I was stressing too much under the pressure of the initial weight of demands of the course. So I wish to thank posters for words of encouragement. I am still very critical of Hibernia College and the way they run the course (and yes I have directed criticisms to them directly) but I will manage this.




  • mariaalice wrote: »
    Anyone doing the course know what they are getting in to and if they have paid out 14k and did not realist how many are doing the course, did not fully comprehend it was largely online and the amount of work involved, did not fully realise that Hibernian is a money making business, not a traditional college, though they would have no trouble getting a job straight away then they need far more help than an internet discussion site could give them.

    No, my point was that I didn't fully know what I was getting into. I tried my best to find out as much as I could about the course in advance. They do not publish student numbers etc. so I had to go on second hand information about this and other details - some of which proved to be incorrect. I never said I that I didn't comprehend that it was online. And I never claimed to expect a "job straight away". And again, no, you are wrong: I received all the help I required on this issue from "an internet discussion site" thank you very much.
    If this discussion can highlight some of the details about Hibernia of which I was unable to ascertain then maybe it will be of some help to other prospective students also. And it was 15k not 14.




  • jarasanew wrote: »
    No, my point was that I didn't fully know what I was getting into. I tried my best to find out as much as I could about the course in advance. They do not publish student numbers etc. so I had to go on second hand information about this and other details - some of which proved to be incorrect. I never said I that I didn't comprehend that it was online. And I never claimed to expect a "job straight away". And again, no, you are wrong: I received all the help I required on this issue from "an internet discussion site" thank you very much.
    If this discussion can highlight some of the details about Hibernia of which I was unable to ascertain then maybe it will be of some help to other prospective students also. And it was 15k not 14.

    It's the general discussion, not you, and it's not just this course lots seem to be perplexed that having done an education course it does not get them where they want, and it's not what they thought.

    The most sensible comment I heard was from a nursing student who is just finished their degree. They said its a good degree and they are going to use it as the basis for doing something else after they earn some money.




  • mariaalice wrote: »
    The snobbery in this is bizarre and seems to be a very Irish thing, the only outcome that matter are for the children being educated. There is no guarantee of a job the same with any masters, 14k is a lot of money, in todays society information is very accessible.
    Anyone doing the course know what they are getting in to and if they have paid out 14k and did not realist how many are doing the course, did not fully comprehend it was largely self-directed learning and the amount of work involved, did not fully realise that Hibernian is a money making business, not a traditional college, though they would have no trouble getting a job straight away then they need far more help than an internet discussion site could give them.

    I know someone doing the course they are well aware it could be years of subbing before they get a job.

    Education is never a waste.
    I don't see any snobbery here? As to numbers doing the course, how is someone to know- the poster has said this information was not available. €14,000 for "largely self-directed learning" is too much to pay to a private entity .




  • I don't see any snobbery here? As to numbers doing the course, how is someone to know- the poster has said this information was not available. €14,000 for "largely self-directed learning" is too much to pay to a private entity .

    I think there was someone a few posts back extolling the superior quality of MIC.


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  • I think there was someone a few posts back extolling the superior quality of MIC.

    I was indeed on what I believe to be a better training course from a learning point of view. Snobbishness wasn't really a factor as such.


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