Hibernia College PMEP - Stick it out?

jarasanew · 06-11-2018 5:17pm #1

Try asking Hibernia College how many NQTs (newly qualified teachers) they graduate every year. Try asking how many drop out, or what is the employment rate for graduates one year later. This information is readily available from most universities eg UCC (carer destinations on their website) But Hibernia? No. I struggled to find solid information before I started this course and now the reality is sinking in.

I am currently studying to be a primary school teacher with Hibernia College and I regret my decision to do so. I’m thinking of quitting. I have potential in many other areas where prospects seem to be far better. Any advice from those that have gone before me?

I am in a class of 500 students (Autumn 2018 intake). There was another intake in April of this year so that means potentially 1000 NQTs graduating in 2020 with me. Plus those graduating in other teacher training colleges. Do not be fooled by media hype. There is no shortage of primary school teachers out there. (secondary teachers in maths, science and Irish? Yes. But Primary? No.) You may hear stories of Principals finding it difficult to find substitute teachers but the fact that there is not a glut of qualified teachers out there sitting by the phone hoping for one days work here or there does not equate to a shortage of qualified teachers. I have been reliably informed by a principal that there will be 100s applying for any full time position that she may advertise. Maybe the lads in my class will have better luck (yes, we constantly hear the male bias is real) but I’m not very confidant about my future job prospects. The only reason I’m continuing with this is because of the huge sum of money that I have invested in it. I understand, Hibernia College is a private business. My fees are €15000 for the two year course. Multiply that by the amount of students in my class = €7.5m (and that’s just the Autumn intake – in the primary teaching dept.). Would be students must also consider that the compulsory Gaeltacht course costs €1500 and the vast majority of people will not be able to work while completing this course after teacher placements start – 8 months in so you must factor in costs to support yourself also.
I think that the course does not offer good value for money. Online seminars (Webinars) involve lecturers reading through their power point slides. They will usually then take questions. But with 500 people in a conference call and poor quality sound this usually turns into a noisy mess. We then log into online learning sessions in our own time. In one of these (Socioloy of Education) there was a link to a website that had been changed two years ago!
All emails from tutors are sent from a ‘noreply’ email address. So any queries have to go through a centralised student admin email address. Three months in and most of us have given up on this route due to bland generic answers or none at all. Indeed the college seems to openly suggest that we should seek guidance from our fellow students rather than from teaching staff. We are directed to online forums and told to set up our own Whatsapp groups. Saying that, some of the teachers that they contract in to teach us on face to face days have been great.
I’m sure that there will be people who will respond to this saying “great place to study, hard work but worth it in the end – I’m in a full time job now” and I’m sure there are people who have found jobs afterwards – I’ve met a few myself in advance of signing up. But this does not tell the whole story. I apologise if this post is a bit all over the place. I’m stressed with the ridiculous amount of work being thrown at me. And I’m not afraid of hard work. I’m in my late 30s and have two degrees and a masters in other areas.

CraftySue · 06-11-2018 6:00pm

OMG, they take 1000 students on a year. I think the primary teaching colleges take about 400 a year. Hibernia was set up to deal with the lack of supply of primary teachers, pre recessionary times, nowadays there definitely contributing to an oversaturation, which only leads to poor working condition for teachers, and devaluing the teaching profession as a whole.

byhookorbycrook · 06-11-2018 7:02pm

Please don't take this the wrong way, but surely some of the issues you outline above would have been avoided if you had looked into the whole story more closely?
Trainee teachers in other colleges can't work at all, so again, you should have been more aware that placements would require you to be available to actually do them and not work elsewhere. The Gaeltacht course is a DES requirement.

Hibernia exists to make profit, they are a business, so will take every chance to save money on lectures etc. You are not the first to complain about the training from Hibernia. It's often the reason many principals would prefer the training given in the traditional colleges.

jarasanew · 06-11-2018 7:19pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Please don't take this the wrong way, but surely some of the issues you outline above would have been avoided if you had looked into the whole story more closely?

Hi. Yes I accept what you are saying. However it was really difficult to get a realistic picture of the course and the job situation in advance. It was my experience that past students were not inclined to speak much about the negative aspects of the course - maybe for reasons of not belittling their qualification. As for the job situation, I did attempt to try to hear a variety of views. Media tells us that there is a massive teacher shortage. Ex students who complained of being jobless were dismissed by others as grudge bearers or unemployables. I'm not totally down on the whole thing. We face bigger challenges in life. I just wish I had met the current me before embarking on this route. I would advise others to look into other options.

jarasanew · 06-11-2018 7:21pm

CraftySue wrote: »

OMG, they take 1000 students on a year.

This is an approximate figure. I could only deduce this from looking at log-in numbers on my online tutorials. I was unable to find an official figure from the college or elsewhere.

dory · 07-11-2018 8:22pm

That's shocking. I've heard similar stories before unfortunately. I guess anything set up for proft isn't going to be student-teacher centered. Hopefully it'll work out and you'll be one of the ones to get a job. Anyone I've known who has come out the other end of that course and gotten a job had something that made them stand out - great Irish, good on an instrument, big GAA player, volunteer work etc. Could you do any of those to improve your chances?

Ferris_Bueller · 08-11-2018 11:25am

I'm also doing this course at the moment and in the same cohort as yourself, it does feel like a large group but I think I heard someone along the line say this was a particularly big cohort this year, I know for our regional groups over the past few weeks most of the contracted lecturers said it was the biggest group they had seen in our region (we have about 32). You're probably right that the course doesn't represent good value, €15k + €1.5k for the Gaeltacht is a lot of money but they can probably charge whatever they like because most students on the course probably wouldn't have got accepted onto or been able to commit financially to another postgrad in Primary Teaching. When you do the maths it is a bit scary how much money they are making every year.

In fairness to them though I have found the course pretty good, all of the lecturers we have had for the face to face classes have been brilliant and honest with us. I have found most of the online lectures pretty good as well although lately they have been swamping us with the amount to get through which is a bit of a shock to the system. Personally I probably would have preferred doing a full time course for 2 years in Maynooth or wherever but financially I wouldn't have been able to take two years out of work (currently plan on working up until the first TP in April). Not sure if it will make any difference to you, but as far as I know you can sign on for jobseekers benefit or allowance while doing this course because it is an online course and you are still available to work full time (outside of teaching practice weeks).

Getting a job at the end of it is a bit of a worry with the numbers that graduate every year but it's a roll of the dice we were willing to take when we signed up to the course I guess. One of the lectures we had for an onsite was a principal in a local school, he said that over the summer he advertised a full time position and only got two applications. So maybe it depends on what part of the country you are in, most primary school teachers I know have found work fairly easily and a few of them are even principals/vice principals already despite being well under 35.

My biggest gripe with the course was how vague they were at the start about it being a full time or part time course, I guess they knew if they said it was a full time course they wouldn't get as many people signing up if it meant having to quit their job, but I would not be recommending anyone does this course and tries to juggle a full time job as it would be very difficult. Overall though I am happy enough with it, so sorry to hear you are not finding it the same.

balliali · 08-11-2018 8:02pm

OK, I'm not a teacher, (I work in a school) but here's my tuppence worth. Firstly you want to be a teacher, Hibernia, despite the cost, offers you that chance part time. It's tough, but a means to an end. Don't give up before you have started, if you have already paid a chunk of money, chin up and give it your best shot. Also depending on what you work at, you may be able to fit in part time hours. Think longer term, you feel you can be a good teacher, go for it!
Firstly, go and find your schools for all your placements - the last thing you need down the line is not being able to find a school under pressure - do that now. And don't just email, walk into the schools and get your name out there. In a year you will probably be qualified to sub - wouldn't it be great to know a school and they know you...and the wages and experience would help.
Get organised in every way, so that when you have tutorials and webinars you are ready for them. Also there's lots written online on all aspects of teaching and learning and psychology, it's bound to help. Keep up to date with your assignments - deadlines are tough when a few are due together, keep positive and be good to yourself, mind your mental health with exercise, peer support, and good friends.
Be careful about deadlines - they MUST be adhered to, and be careful uploading - be sure you have done exactly what Hibernia needs - they can be dreadful to deal with (and there's a fine for almost everything).
Don't worry yet about unemployment - many people go through college with one focus, and end up with an even better or different job, so don't be defeated before you start, depending on the area you live in there might be loads of opportunities and lots of choice.
I post this from experience as an adult learner (in my forties), I loved every minute of the opportunities it gave me, the friends I made, the tears I shed, and the pride of getting a 3rd level qualification, and an award in the graduation ceremony too.....take any support you are offered - someone to help, someone to listen, someone to keep you "grounded", and sometimes someone to cook you a meal while you cram an extra bit of study in. My advice is GO FOR IT!

jarasanew · 09-11-2018 12:39am

Thank you both for your replies. Your words are a great source of encouragement!

user9797 · 09-11-2018 4:18pm

Im repeating Irish as i want to be a primary teacher and hibernia is the only college that will allow me to start nect year rather than waiting till 2020 to start, the thought of online study doesnt appeal to me much as it sounds kind of lonely, is it difficult to make friends in hibernia seeing as most of it is done online? I would rather go to traditional college but don't want to have to wait another year to get my degree, and advice?

evolving_doors · 09-11-2018 4:54pm

user9797 wrote: »

Im repeating Irish as i want to be a primary teacher and hibernia is the only college that will allow me to start nect year rather than waiting till 2020 to start, the thought of online study doesnt appeal to me much as it sounds kind of lonely, is it difficult to make friends in hibernia seeing as most of it is done online? I would rather go to traditional college but don't want to have to wait another year to get my degree, and advice?

First time in college for degree you make good friends and social life etc. Second time it was a case of get in and get out. I made a few acquaintances but never really went out.
Find a few like minded spirits and form a WhatsApp group.

jarasanew · 09-11-2018 8:53pm

user9797 wrote: »

Im repeating Irish as i want to be a primary teacher and hibernia is the only college that will allow me to start nect year rather than waiting till 2020 to start, the thought of online study doesnt appeal to me much as it sounds kind of lonely, is it difficult to make friends in hibernia seeing as most of it is done online? I would rather go to traditional college but don't want to have to wait another year to get my degree, and advice?

If you live in an urban area you will be grouped with others for regional meet-ups and so you will meet others and be able to form friendships (through student initiated whatsapp groups). However, if you are applying to Hibernia you will alreday have a primary degree and be a bit older than the usual undergrad student. Most of your classmates at Hibernia will have busy lives outside of college and not have time for friend-making in the usual sense. Additionaly, it is very lonely in terms of having to figure out everything for yourself (convoluted assignment questions, where and how to seek school placements, etc etc). The college seem to have a 'figure it out yourself' attitude and 'if stuck, ask your fellow students, not us'. As another poster says, you meet some great tutors at the onsite days where you can ask questions in real time, just like a regular college course, but these days are a tiny fraction of the course. I showed my assignment questions to an ex hibernia student and he told me that the complexity level has gone up quite a few notches since it turned into a masters course. I guess they are trying to justify their high fees. If I had the chance again I would definitely do the regular college option even if it meant waiting a year. (and I'd say I am a lot older than you:) But speak to as many current students as you can. (maybe you are a recent college graduate and well practiced in academic research and it may be easier for you to do this alone). And be wary of taking on board advice (both positive and negative) from people who have not done the course.

Ferris_Bueller · 09-11-2018 11:39pm

user9797 wrote: »

Im repeating Irish as i want to be a primary teacher and hibernia is the only college that will allow me to start nect year rather than waiting till 2020 to start, the thought of online study doesnt appeal to me much as it sounds kind of lonely, is it difficult to make friends in hibernia seeing as most of it is done online? I would rather go to traditional college but don't want to have to wait another year to get my degree, and advice?

This was something I wondered before the course started but everyone is my regional group gets along really well, considering were only 2 months into it I'm surprised at how close the group is already! You get to know each other well at the on site days because it's very practical and a lot of group work. But the others are right in that people are busy and have lives going on outside of the course so it's not quite the same as an undergrad. Feel free to send a PM if you have any questions on the course.

rainbowtrout · 10-11-2018 3:30am

jarasanew wrote: »

I showed my assignment questions to an ex hibernia student and he told me that the complexity level has gone up quite a few notches since it turned into a masters course. I guess they are trying to justify their high fees.

The complexity of the assignments has nothing to do with the fees. Hibernia fees were always high, it's a private college. The complexity of the assignments has more to do with the fact that it's a masters course rather than a diploma. That part is beyond their control.

To be honest, it just sounds like you didn't investigate teaching very much before you signed up. A quick trawl through a few forums and a look at the number of jobs advertised would give some idea of what the job situation is like regardless of how many people are enrolled in Hibernia.

evolving_doors · 10-11-2018 4:51pm

Id say the online aspect has opened up possibilities for schools in rural extremities too (I'm thinking of Kerry and Donegal). So say someone down in Kerry doesnt have to pay rent in Dublin for 2 years to get qualified. My cousin said she wouldn't have been able to get qualified as a teacher if it weren't for the online opportunity.
The Hibernia vs regular route probably annoys people who have a choice moreso than those which don't.

Might be good for schools in rural areas too to get in a local PME into the local school.

That old chestnut of 'my former college was the best' has been going on for yonks (Yale vs Harvard, Oxford vs Cambridge), you'd be doing yourself out of potentially good candidates if you discriminate before an interview.

thequarefellow · 10-11-2018 11:45pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I

My biggest gripe with the course was how vague they were at the start about it being a full time or part time course,

I too am doing this course at the moment, I am in the same cohort and I agree with the sentiments above. Everyone that I have spoken to who was hoping to work part time reckons they will have to scrap that plan very soon. The workload is huge, and counter productive, I think, as there is little time for reflection or proper learning of any new concepts. Is the course good value for money? Well, if one gets a job at the other side then I suppose it is. But the high cost of the course is not reflected in teaching quality, resources or learning support. (But again, I agree with another poster that tutors at onsites - mainly practitioners in the field - have been excellent)

College is about what you make of it more than the esteem of the college or the quality of its teaching staff and I have no doubt that Hibernia will churn out, for the most part, excellent teachers - because the guys and girls I am studying with are, for the most part, excellent individuals.

That being said, I am really struggling with an aspect of the course at the moment and if there are any recent graduates of the PMEP reading this I would really appreciate a pm to discuss.

Many thanks in advance

slingerz · 12-11-2018 5:13pm

i am looking into doing the secondary teaching with Hibernia. I need to stay earning so online is the only option for me. As a back to education candidate the online option does not intimidate me nor too the workload. For me it is a means to an end. Fast forward two years and i have qualified then the hardship wont matter as much to me

fed_u · 13-11-2018 9:27pm

Completed the post primary course with Hibernia. Would not recommend - simply because they don't care - they are a business at the end of the day! Zero support or assistance and they take an age to reply and are so inconsistent with what they tell you!!
If you think they're bad for ye on primary they are twice as bad for secondary. Numbers are much lower on post primary.
OP if you have come this far - stick at it, it is a massive amount of money that you have spent to get this far. If you decide to go into a different field once finished so be it.. Stick at it and as mentioned above you get out what you put in. Give it your best shot - you'd never know!

user12345_ed · 15-11-2018 4:48pm

hi everyone,

I completed the PME in Primary and have to say I wasn't really won over by the quality of the college.Anyone considering Primary teaching needs to do their homework. They don't have to report their numbers to the department but I would reckon that they would have 1200 students doing primary alone in any two years. Anyoe who thinks that they could get 1-on-1 attention or anyone who struggles won't be taken care of.

I came from a normal college but I did an Msc which was online. The difference was the amount of attnetion and contact I got from my lecturers. It is a huge amount of money now. It used to be around 12k or so when I did it and seems to have jumped to 15k with no valid reasons except that they are money makers. They might even jump it higher in the future.

One thing that really stood out to me was how you got to see full time staff at the first day but then they disappear into the background. You might get a letter sent to you from a head of XYZ (they all seem to change their titles daily) but you don't deal with them. A lot of them seem to be out of touch with what is happening to their students and when I told them of a personal issue that was affecting my studies they told me to reach out to friends and family when all I needed was an extension.

What bothers me is this - you are payin high fees for low standards. When I fly with Ryanair I expect to be stranded cause I paid a tenner for the flight, but when I fly Aer Lingus and they lose my baggage and then tell me they are paying for it to be found is what my experience was like.

user12345_ed · 15-11-2018 4:50pm

fed_u wrote: »

Completed the post primary course with Hibernia. Would not recommend - simply because they don't care - they are a business at the end of the day! Zero support or assistance and they take an age to reply and are so inconsistent with what they tell you!!
If you think they're bad for ye on primary they are twice as bad for secondary. Numbers are much lower on post primary.
OP if you have come this far - stick at it, it is a massive amount of money that you have spent to get this far. If you decide to go into a different field once finished so be it.. Stick at it and as mentioned above you get out what you put in. Give it your best shot - you'd never know!

My friend just finished the post primary course after I recommended it. She said their main lecturers left and no one replaced them leaving them to deal with administrators who weren't teacher.s

fed_u · 15-11-2018 6:12pm

user12345_ed wrote: »

My friend just finished the post primary course after I recommended it. She said their main lecturers left and no one replaced them leaving them to deal with administrators who weren't teacher.s

Staff turn over was fairly obvious which I think tells a lot... Also the price seems to increase each year with no reason - I didn't even so much as get a pen from them when I was on the course!! Also they are very vague on the details / info when you apply to the course as no one knows what they are signing up for in the beginning...

evolving_doors · 15-11-2018 6:38pm

user12345_ed wrote: »

My friend just finished the post primary course after I recommended it. She said their main lecturers left and no one replaced them leaving them to deal with administrators who weren't teacher.s

Are you saying the administrators delivered the course material?

user12345_ed · 15-11-2018 6:53pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Are you saying the administrators delivered the course material?

No, they drafted in people but remember that the course material is mostly pre-recorded. There was no one there to talk to fulltime from what i could tell

mesagiulia3 · 27-11-2018 4:21pm

jarasanew wrote: »

Try asking Hibernia College how many NQTs (newly qualified teachers) they graduate every year. Try asking how many drop out, or what is the employment rate for graduates one year later.

Hi, as you are now in Hibernia have you been able to ascertain more information about the course? I am considering it next year and I would like to find out more but I agree they are pretty tight with the information. I would like to know about lecturing staff, numbers of yearly graduates, prospects for graduates etc. Any info or direct me to it?

thanks

byhookorbycrook · 27-11-2018 7:22pm

Had a look at their site , the Primary is looking for the following tutors which strikes me as a huge number:
History of Education
Philosophy of Education
Sociology of Education
Psychology of Education
Curriculum Studies
Music
Drama
Visual arts
Physical Education
Irish
English
Maths
ICT
Religion Education
Theology
Early Childhood Education
Social Personal and Health Education
History
Geography
Science
Development Education

This is the Mary I Vacancy page, by contrast:
http://www.mic.ul.ie/vacancies/Pages/default.aspx

amacca · 27-11-2018 9:35pm

They shouldn't be allowed operate like that at all......way to many graduates looking for way too few positions.

Race to the bottom stuff ... its lowering standards in the job might eventually get too

evolving_doors · 28-11-2018 4:20am

amacca wrote: »

They shouldn't be allowed operate like that at all......way to many graduates looking for way too few positions.

Race to the bottom stuff ... its lowering standards in the job might eventually get too

If there's more people coming out then wouldnt you think schools have a broader range of candidates to choose from?
Or conversely are you saying less people entering the profession would mean a higher standard!

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chance.

evolving_doors · 28-11-2018 11:06am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Had a look at their site , the Primary is looking for the following tutors which strikes me as a huge number:
History of Education
Philosophy of Education
Sociology of Education
Psychology of Education
Curriculum Studies
Music
Drama
Visual arts
Physical Education
Irish
English
Maths
ICT
Religion Education
Theology
Early Childhood Education
Social Personal and Health Education
History
Geography
Science
Development Education

This is the Mary I Vacancy page, by contrast:
http://www.mic.ul.ie/vacancies/Pages/default.aspx

I think that might be an error as there are a lot of secondary subjects there. I know a few of those tutors and... they haven't left! Probably they are updating a reserve panel in case a tutor is sick or leaves. I saw a similar call for tutors back in 2014, it was an online thing with dropdown boxes of many subjects. Not great to be advertising as actual vacancies though.

Mary I is probably a real job.

user12345_ed · 28-11-2018 12:55pm

mesagiulia3 wrote: »

Hi, as you are now in Hibernia have you been able to ascertain more information about the course? I am considering it next year and I would like to find out more but I agree they are pretty tight with the information. I would like to know about lecturing staff, numbers of yearly graduates, prospects for graduates etc. Any info or direct me to it?

thanks

As they are a private college they don't have to publish numbers like the other training colleges do. You won't find direct info online about numbers or drop out rates. If you were to google DCU's drop out rate you'd find it.

In most colleges you would expect a 10% drop out rate after year 1 which can be down to various reasons like financial, illness, incapability with the course, family issues and such.

evolving_doors · 28-11-2018 4:06pm

user12345_ed wrote: »

As they are a private college they don't have to publish numbers like the other training colleges do. You won't find direct info online about numbers or drop out rates. If you were to google DCU's drop out rate you'd find it.

In most colleges you would expect a 10% drop out rate after year 1 which can be down to various reasons like financial, illness, incapability with the course, family issues and such.

Total of DCUs dropout rate... or the PME dropout rate?

amacca · 28-11-2018 5:48pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

If there's more people coming out then wouldnt you think schools have a broader range of candidates to choose from?
Or conversely are you saying less people entering the profession would mean a higher standard!

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chance.

No I personally wouldn't look at it like that.

To me there's a lot of problems with that approach for teachers and student.

1) It appears to be yellow packing teacher training if its as described in previous posts......the object of the exercise is about getting in as many people as possible in order to Hoover up fees. It shouldn't be primarily profit driven imho. It should be about providing good training that has a good chance of leading to good quality employment for the candidate I think.

2) way more candidates than there are positions has knock ons like more and more teachers getting piecemeal hours, higher staff turnover and the perceived desirability of the profession going down. Which ultimately will lead to a lower quality candidate and a poorer quality education system. News item today says that teachers since a certain year (2011 maybe) are now drawn from a broader percentile of academic achievment (e.g. top 12% estimate as ive forgotten exact figures rather than top 5%) ...there of course wiĺl be individual exceptions to this drawn from within the cohort but ultimately overall the quality of teacher will decline over time if keeps going that way imho

3) it gives govt a lever to put more pressure on the profession to it's detriment and it leaves NQT s afraid to say boo and probably unfairly treated

None of that is ultimately good for students either and it won't be long until average length of stay in the career can be measured on the digits of one hand and teaching is seen as a stepping stone or all you could get.

byhookorbycrook · 28-11-2018 8:09pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think that might be an error as there are a lot of secondary subjects there. I know a few of those tutors and... they haven't left! Probably they are updating a reserve panel in case a tutor is sick or leaves. I saw a similar call for tutors back in 2014, it was an online thing with dropdown boxes of many subjects. Not great to be advertising as actual vacancies though.

Mary I is probably a real job.

I wouldn't say that there are secondary subjects in that list, all would be part of primary teacher training.

evolving_doors · 28-11-2018 8:18pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I wouldn't say that there are secondary subjects in that list, all would be part of primary teacher training.

Music
Drama
Visual arts
Physical Education
Irish
English
Maths
ICT
Religion Education
Theology
Early Childhood Education
Social Personal and Health Education
History
Geography
Science

A lot of secondary subjects there! But accepting that, I get that they are typical parts of the primary curriculum. Is it normal for other colleges to hire all those individual tutors with those specialisims?

James Bond Junior · 28-11-2018 8:29pm

I am a MIC graduate and have had quite a few students through my room at this stage. There is no comparison between the MIC students and Hibernia in quality of the training. The expecatations laid upon the MIC students seems to be much higher than the Hibernias in every respect. Hibernia is doing it's students no favours, they are focusing on quantity over quality every time.

evolving_doors · 29-11-2018 12:27am

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I am a MIC graduate and have had quite a few students through my room at this stage. There is no comparison between the MIC students and Hibernia in quality of the training. The expecatations laid upon the MIC students seems to be much higher than the Hibernias in every respect. Hibernia is doing it's students no favours, they are focusing on quantity over quality every time.

Ah that old chestnut... I to X College and I find the students from there are far superior to College Y, is as old as the hills. I've heard this snobbery from Principals/Deputies/teachers who went to...
UL
TCD
Mary I
St Pats
Mater Dei
UCD
DCU

...all maintaining that the quality of all other graduates was never quite as good as the ones where they 'coincidentally' went to college.
Similarly I've heard criticisms from student who went to those colleges also.

So maybe if we pick it apart a bit.

There is no comparison between the MIC students and Hibernia in quality of the training.

What exactly do you mean by quality, could you provide an example?

The expecatations laid upon the MIC students seems to be much higher than the Hibernias in every respect.

What do you mean by higher expectations?

Hibernia is doing it's students no favours, they are focusing on quantity over quality every time.

That's a bit of hyperbola saying it's 'every time' as if you've measured it 'every time'. Yes they do take in significant numbers compared to other courses. But when I did my 'HDIP' (not in Hibernia) I remember the lecture theatres jam packed too. But maybe you're criticising the actual lectures themselves, or the content you'll have to expand a bit more on what you mean.

Notorious · 29-11-2018 1:29am

mesagiulia3 wrote: »

Hi, as you are now in Hibernia have you been able to ascertain more information about the course? I am considering it next year and I would like to find out more but I agree they are pretty tight with the information. I would like to know about lecturing staff, numbers of yearly graduates, prospects for graduates etc. Any info or direct me to it?

thanks

I finished the HDip (second level) in Hibernia five years ago and I walked into a full time job after I graduated. Part of that was luck and being in the right place at the right time. I also graduated with a good result.

Initially when I started the course I thought the idea of an upfront payment with no chance of a refund to be quite daunting. I wanted to get out of the industry I was in and the part-time nature of Hibernia suited me.

It's hard to say what prospects for graduates are in any discipline. At the moment it seems like there is a demand for teachers and with a growing population that should continue. The college that you attend won't influence this.

As for Hibernia, most of the lecturers were current teachers or members of school management (year heads, principals, deputies). I found all of them to be good. One or two were outstanding (the subject lecturers). As for the course, I rarely attended online lectures as they didn't suit my work schedule. I also struggled to make some of the Saturday classes. Instead of attending, I'd study the material hard and make sure to do required reading. All video lectures were made available online after the lecture, so you could re-watch them if you wanted to.

IMO the college side of teacher training is a load of pot. We learned about psychologists from the early days of education, the history of education in Ireland etc. Most of it isn't relative to teaching today, and all of the colleges taught those topics at the time. My best learning and the most relative to my career today was all done on the job, either through placement or after graduating. Don't get into the "which college is better?" debate, because it just results in irrelevant nonsense about why X is better than Y. Choose the college that suits you.

I've spoken to a lot of current MA students from various colleges, and they've all told me that the second year of their course seems very much tacked on. One of the UCD lads has no lectures after January and feels that the few months of work in year two is just a repeat of year one.

TLDR; Hibernia's course is as good as the next. If distance learning suits you, go for it. Just make sure to motivate yourself to put in the hard work and you won't have an issue. IMO it doesn't matter what college you go to, as long as you get the piece of paper at the end of the day.

James Bond Junior · 29-11-2018 10:21am

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ah that old chestnut... I to X College and

What exactly do you mean by quality, could you provide an example?

What do you mean by higher expectations?

I'll start with higher expectations. The MIC inspectors demand more of the students eg in their planning, detail of lesson plans and in fact general planning, they are subjected to a more vigorous inspection by the inspector when in the classroom. I have seen MIC inspectors go through every page of an MIC students planning folder and nitpick. I've never witnessed this with Hibernia inspectors. MIC inspectors come unannounced meaning the pressure to deliver high quality lessons is ever present. Hibernia students know when their inspectors are coming. Any MIC inspector I have had in my room will ask the teacher for their opinion on the student, I have never had the same from a Hibernia inspector.

Moving on to quality, for a start the OP states that lectures are online on a type of conference call style where it is very hard to hear. That is poor in any mans language. It is hard to argue with a lecture present in the room with 50 students where questions can be asked and answered. Speaking to my last student, I asked had they done much for SESE science. A one day workshop and that was it in the whole 2 year programme. An MIC student will get at least 2 modules on this. I have had colleagues in the past whom are simply not fit to teach but have degrees from Hibernia. Any teacher worth their salt should know what a CVC is, I have had a Hibernia colleague ask me what this was. How you can go through 2 years of teacher training and come out not knowing this is beyond comprehension. In the traditional colleges these people would have been encouraged to explore other options at an early stage of their training. I know this as a small number of my classmates in MIC had this happen and they were all the better for it. I know I may sound very anti Hibernia and in many ways I am but there are many people whom are fantastic teachers whom have gone down the Hibernia route so it is not fair to tar everybody with the same brush but I will part on the words a Hibernia trained colleague whom was originally a secondary school teacher, "Hibernia is a joke of a college compared to the rest."

user12345_ed · 29-11-2018 3:03pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ah that old chestnut... I to X College and I find the students from there are far superior to College Y, is as old as the hills. I've heard this snobbery from Principals/Deputies/teachers who went to...
UL
TCD
Mary I
St Pats
Mater Dei
UCD
DCU

...all maintaining that the quality of all other graduates was never quite as good as the ones where they 'coincidentally' went to college.
Similarly I've heard criticisms from student who went to those colleges also.

You can compare Mary I and St Pat's graduates and SP grads saying they might be some how better than MI. When it comes to Hibernia it is a different story completely. Because they allow in anyone who applies they are going to have much weaker and much more mediocre students compared to the public- funded bodies. I remember in my cohort that it was full of people who shouldn't have been on the course. Some of them shouldn't even have had their undergraduate degrees imho. One of my colleagues thought Africa was a country and another didn't know how to count in Irish. When you have a bigger group of students and low standards you are going to find many more weaker students that is just pure statistics.

Boeing777 · 29-11-2018 6:38pm

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I'll start with higher expectations. The MIC inspectors demand more of the students eg in their planning, detail of lesson plans and in fact general planning, they are subjected to a more vigorous inspection by the inspector when in the classroom. I have seen MIC inspectors go through every page of an MIC students planning folder and nitpick. I've never witnessed this with Hibernia inspectors. MIC inspectors come unannounced meaning the pressure to deliver high quality lessons is ever present. Hibernia students know when their inspectors are coming. Any MIC inspector I have had in my room will ask the teacher for their opinion on the student, I have never had the same from a Hibernia inspector.

Moving on to quality, for a start the OP states that lectures are online on a type of conference call style where it is very hard to hear. That is poor in any mans language. It is hard to argue with a lecture present in the room with 50 students where questions can be asked and answered. Speaking to my last student, I asked had they done much for SESE science. A one day workshop and that was it in the whole 2 year programme. An MIC student will get at least 2 modules on this. I have had colleagues in the past whom are simply not fit to teach but have degrees from Hibernia. Any teacher worth their salt should know what a CVC is, I have had a Hibernia colleague ask me what this was. How you can go through 2 years of teacher training and come out not knowing this is beyond comprehension. In the traditional colleges these people would have been encouraged to explore other options at an early stage of their training. I know this as a small number of my classmates in MIC had this happen and they were all the better for it. I know I may sound very anti Hibernia and in many ways I am but there are many people whom are fantastic teachers whom have gone down the Hibernia route so it is not fair to tar everybody with the same brush but I will part on the words a Hibernia trained colleague whom was originally a secondary school teacher, "Hibernia is a joke of a college compared to the rest."

I have just recently graduated from the PME Primary with Hibernia. I can categorically state that Hibernia inspections are incredibly rigorous. During every inspection I received across the three placements, my folder was always checked very closely and lessons from previous weeks were commented on etc. I distinctly remember an inspector going through a series of past lesson plans and asking me to justify my use of some words within learning objectives etc. This experience was similarly shared by classmates in different schools with different inspectors.

As for knowing when inspections were happening, not once during my 10 inspections did I have any idea that the inspector was coming to me. Even the very first inspection of the first teaching practice is unannounced. I'm sure individual inspectors differ in the amount of hints they might provide a student with, however, it is the college policy that all inspections are unannounced. Also, Hibernia very often send grade moderators and academic staff around to visit students and provide additional checks on folders, resources etc. Three of my friends received these visits.

While I am not a fan of the Hibernia model and how it conducts its business, I feel it is necessary to provide an insight from the point of view of a student who has recently gone through the process.

James Bond Junior · 29-11-2018 7:30pm

Boeing777 wrote: »

I have just recently graduated from the PME Primary with Hibernia. I can categorically state that Hibernia inspections are incredibly rigorous. During every inspection I received across the three placements, my folder was always checked very closely and lessons from previous weeks were commented on etc. I distinctly remember an inspector going through a series of past lesson plans and asking me to justify my use of some words within learning objectives etc. This experience was similarly shared by classmates in different schools with different inspectors.

As for knowing when inspections were happening, not once during my 10 inspections did I have any idea that the inspector was coming to me. Even the very first inspection of the first teaching practice is unannounced. I'm sure individual inspectors differ in the amount of hints they might provide a student with, however, it is the college policy that all inspections are unannounced. Also, Hibernia very often send grade moderators and academic staff around to visit students and provide additional checks on folders, resources etc. Three of my friends received these visits.

While I am not a fan of the Hibernia model and how it conducts its business, I feel it is necessary to provide an insight from the point of view of a student who has recently gone through the process.

The unannounced visits are a recent development then because this was clearly not the case 3 years ago when I had my second last Hibernia student, nor was it the case when I completed my final MIC placement at the same time as a Hibernia student. As it happens we compared folders at the time and the difference in expectations leveled upon me by my inspector compared to theirs was stark. My last student submitted their plans in order for me to use them for my Cuntas Míosúil and in my opinion had I submitted them to an MIC inspector I would have been hauled over the coals. This was this time last year. I have another Hib student soon, I will be happy to be stood corrected but in my experience the expectations just don't match.

Boeing, I am sure you are more than capable to teach a class but I have seen it from the otherside of the desk. The problem doesn't lie with the people completing the course, it lies with Hibernia being a business and their indifference. Ive never heard of a Hibernia student failing TP, cant say the same for other colleges. Can you?

user12345_ed · 29-11-2018 7:54pm

Just wanted to quickly point out that all of my visits were unannounced and I did my training a number of years ago. We had a regional group WhatsApp group so it was fairly easy to figure out where the teaching practice supervisor was and when to expect them tbh. It didn't feel unannounced to me.

Hibernia College has made some great teachers not because of the course but in spite of it. My time in school and with my class teacher was of more benefit than the out of date online lectures and webinars. There are great people working for them as well but its mission is clear; make a lot of money and watch standards slipping across the board.

James Bond Junior · 29-11-2018 8:53pm

user12345_ed wrote: »

Just wanted to quickly point out that all of my visits were unannounced and I did my training a number of years ago. We had a regional group WhatsApp group so it was fairly easy to figure out where the teaching practice supervisor was and when to expect them tbh. It didn't feel unannounced to me.

Hibernia College has made some great teachers not because of the course but in spite of it. My time in school and with my class teacher was of more benefit than the out of date online lectures and webinars. There are great people working for them as well but its mission is clear; make a lot of money and watch standards slipping across the board.

Nail on the head. I work with some fantastic teachers and they are a product of Hibernia but as you say in spite of it.

Notorious · 29-11-2018 9:51pm

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Boeing, I am sure you are more than capable to teach a class but I have seen it from the otherside of the desk. The problem doesn't lie with the people completing the course, it lies with Hibernia being a business and their indifference. Ive never heard of a Hibernia student failing TP, cant say the same for other colleges. Can you?

All colleges are treated like a business JB Jr. You'd be a fool to think otherwise.

A friend's ex-girlfriend failed Hibernia TP, and I know of another guy who failed at UCD. The HDip/PME is not difficult and you'd want to be a special case to fail TP. I know too may people who got a 2.1 with ease and we all work with terrible teachers who got by.

I honestly don't think you can say one course is better than another. It's just petty IMHO. All have their pros and cons. I've never met a teacher who has told me their time in college made them.

James Bond Junior · 29-11-2018 11:09pm

Notorious wrote: »

All colleges are treated like a business JB Jr. You'd be a fool to think otherwise.

A friend's ex-girlfriend failed Hibernia TP, and I know of another guy who failed at UCD. The HDip/PME is not difficult and you'd want to be a special case to fail TP. I know too may people who got a 2.1 with ease and we all work with terrible teachers who got by.

I honestly don't think you can say one course is better than another. It's just petty IMHO. All have their pros and cons. I've never met a teacher who has told me their time in college made them.

I am well aware that all colleges are run as businesses thank you. However MIC et al are not businesses. Hibernia is a business. Money comes first, all too often at the expense of the student as far as I can see.

I feel I am qualified to say one course is better than the other without being petty. I have double figures in years of teaching experience at this stage and have had a student teacher nearly every year I have been in the classroom so I have a made real world observations on students from all institutions and the fact is that Hibernia students are not prepared to the same level nor standard as the traditional training colleges. That is not their fault, if you are a good teacher you will be a good teacher but Hibernia need to rise up and start implementing higher standards for not only entry selection but also the quality of their pedagogy. And that comes from the mouth of more than one Hibernia colleague, not mine.

cloud1969 · 29-11-2018 11:27pm

I will shortly be starting my last school placement with Hibernia and can 100% confirm that, certainly for the primary teacher training, all inspector visits are unannounced.
All of my last four inspectors have gone through my planning folder, resource folders, assessment notebooks with a fine toothcomb so much so that teachers in the school commented that some of the questions and level of checking was more akin to a WSE approach than a student teacher inspection.
As far as I am aware the other training colleges do not have to provide lesson plans the night before each teaching day. Hibernia students must upload all lesson plans by midnight the night before and you have no idea what lesson you will be inspected in. I believe students from other colleges can have one or two fail safe lessons stored to be produced when inspected but if I'm wrong in this I apologise.
The volume of paperwork is immense during TP with Hibernia. Students from other colleges on TP at the same time couldn't believe what was required by Hibernia.
It's also untrue that Hibernia do not fail students on TP, I know of two personally who did fail.

evolving_doors · 30-11-2018 12:03am

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I am well aware that all colleges are run as businesses thank you. However MIC et al are not businesses. Hibernia is a business. Money comes first, all too often at the expense of the student as far as I can see.

I feel I am qualified to say one course is better than the other without being petty. I have double figures in years of teaching experience at this stage and have had a student teacher nearly every year I have been in the classroom so I have a made real world observations on students from all institutions and the fact is that Hibernia students are not prepared to the same level nor standard as the traditional training colleges. That is not their fault, if you are a good teacher you will be a good teacher but Hibernia need to rise up and start implementing higher standards for not only entry selection but also the quality of their pedagogy. And that comes from the mouth of more than one Hibernia colleague, not mine.

I'd defer to your experience of some Hibernia students and their alleged 'deficient' college practices (although others have countered it with theirs).

But if you've had so many disappointments with the college and their students, then why do you continue to let them in the door, What benefit are they to your school?

James Bond Junior · 30-11-2018 12:41am

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd defer to your experience of some Hibernia students and their alleged 'deficient' college practices (although others have countered it with theirs).

But if you've had so many disappointments with the college and their students, then why do you continue to let them in the door, What benefit are they to your school?

I am not in school management so the choice is not mine to be made.

I know I have pointed out a lot of deficiencies as I see and interpret them as a professional but I will stand over my posts, they were all of the argument that the standards applied in the Hibernia course are not, IMO, to the same levels as the traditional teaching colleges. Hibernia can produce quality teachers, there is no denying that however as several other posters whom have completed Hibernia courses have said, the quality of tuition nor the level of student support is not always as good as it can be. There is also a view amongst many that Hibernia is the option you take if you can't get into MIC or Pat's PME courses as they are more likely to take anyone. I will stand corrected on the unannounced visit's but this was not always the procedure, of that I am certain. MIC, Pat's et al have their faults it has to pointed out but it is my opinion that the very nature of Hibernia delivering courses for profit first and teaching second can only have a detrimental effect on the teaching and learning.

missy_t · 30-11-2018 8:33pm

cloud1969 wrote: »

I will shortly be starting my last school placement with Hibernia and can 100% confirm that, certainly for the primary teacher training, all inspector visits are unannounced.
All of my last four inspectors have gone through my planning folder, resource folders, assessment notebooks with a fine toothcomb so much so that teachers in the school commented that some of the questions and level of checking was more akin to a WSE approach than a student teacher inspection.
As far as I am aware the other training colleges do not have to provide lesson plans the night before each teaching day. Hibernia students must upload all lesson plans by midnight the night before and you have no idea what lesson you will be inspected in. I believe students from other colleges can have one or two fail safe lessons stored to be produced when inspected but if I'm wrong in this I apologise.
The volume of paperwork is immense during TP with Hibernia. Students from other colleges on TP at the same time couldn't believe what was required by Hibernia.
It's also untrue that Hibernia do not fail students on TP, I know of two personally who did fail.

This was my exact experience of Hibernia when I completed the course 10 years ago. I have never been out of work since I graduated and became permanent a few years ago. All visits were unannounced and I also got grade moderators. Everything was checked very thoroughly. I know a few people who have failed the course, likewise I know of trainees from other colleges who were also failed. Other teachers often commented that my notes and plans were expected to be much more detailed than theirs had been (they had went the traditional route)

One thing I will say is that the teachers who went the traditional route seemed to have a more in depth knowledge of the subjects. Sometimes I felt actual teaching methodologies were ignored during the onsites. Also I remember on my first TP we hadn't had any Geography lessons, yet were expected to teach it! Most of my learning came from teaching practice which I would say is the same with all courses.

Also, not everyone gets accepted into Hibernia (unless it has changed). You need to meet the Irish requirements and then sit quite difficult English and Irish interviews. I did Hibernia because I would have had a 2 hour commute each way to go to Dublin, and it wouldn't have been possible for me to move. At the time the course was only 18 months and I managed to work for the first 6 months so it suited me perfectly.

I don't see a huge difference between the colleges, except for snobbery surrounding certain ones. I've had excellent TP students in my class from all the colleges and I've had rubbish ones from all of them also.

Notorious · 30-11-2018 9:34pm

James Bond Junior wrote:

..it is my opinion that the very nature of Hibernia delivering courses for profit first and teaching second can only have a detrimental effect on the teaching and learning.

I don't think I'm being cynical when I say that money comes first with every college or university from Hibernia to UCD. I've never heard any decent teacher crediting their success to the college they attended. I'd argue that every college teaches for profit first, so I'd disagree with your perception that Hibernia's nature has a detrimental effect on teaching and learning.

I feel I am qualified to say one course is better than the other without being petty. I have double figures in years of teaching experience...

If I had a euro for every time I've heard a senior teacher quoting their years in the job as a way to qualify their opinion, I'd be a rich man.

Olivia Pope · 01-12-2018 4:57pm

OP have things improved any bit for you?

A friend of mine who is a principal said to me recently that there are a lot of permanent teachers taking career breaks to go traveling/save a deposit or to have children. She said that some principals are starting to look more favorable at older Hibernia graduates as they are less likely to need all or any of these. Thought it was interesting.

byhookorbycrook · 01-12-2018 8:51pm

Older graduates may have been putting off having a family until they finished. Any younger teachers that I know who have gone abroad are generally not in a permanent position. The "career break" tourist thing is a bit of spin from the DES to shift blame on to teachers for those leaving the profession. I know of three jobs for the rest of the year for which no-one even applied.

Hibernia College PMEP - Stick it out?

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