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Reloading

  • 05-11-2018 10:47am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 Kandjen


    Any updates regarding reloading? As in, any sign of being allowed to reload at home?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Don't hold your breath.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    It's allowed at home...Provided you can meet all the requirements of manufacturing ammo under commercial legislation and to the satisfaction of your local council and fire chiefs saftey reviews. And can figure some way of getting powder and primers imported at very reasonable cost from NI or the Uk/EU.
    An Irish solution to an Irish problem...It is legal to do, just make it as difficult and finacinally unrewarding as to be not worth the game.:rolleyes:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    This is where I'm getting confused. The 1875 explosives act gave expressed exemption for storage for private uses. That meant that private ownership was not controlled up to a certain weight. Now I see that the DOJ have a printed guide to the actual explosives act in which the state on page 6 that a person may keep up 10lb of explosives for private use once written Garda permission is obtained.
    This possession it seems is entirely separated from a registered premises, a magizine or a factory.

    The order is quoted as "Order in council No 12" under the heading 'Keeping of explosives for private use and not for sale'

    Maybe there is more detail in this 'Order in council no 12' document but I haven't seen it yet.. has anyone else seen it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭ tac foley


    There are a few members here from the Republic who DO reload, and I'm hoping that they will join in the conversation and clarify the requirements [again].

    Take just one step over the border and you'll find that any gun owner can reload for the calibres that he or she has 'on ticket'. But that's another country, with different laws.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    This is where I'm getting confused. The 1875 explosives act gave expressed exemption for storage for private uses. That meant that private ownership was not controlled up to a certain weight. Now I see that the DOJ have a printed guide to the actual explosives act in which the state on page 6 that a person may keep up 10lb of explosives for private use once written Garda permission is obtained.
    This possession it seems is entirely separated from a registered premises, a magizine or a factory.

    The order is quoted as "Order in council No 12" under the heading 'Keeping of explosives for private use and not for sale'

    Maybe there is more detail in this 'Order in council no 12' document but I haven't seen it yet.. has anyone else seen it?

    Correct on all points.HOWEVER there is national legislation that seems to work in conjunction or superceeds this 1875 explosive act.And this is what the Govt and national bodies work on.
    THIS is what will catch you out.I made a point of trying to apply for a liscense for reloading a few years ago as a normal civvie to see how far I could get.When I got to the requirements of the building modifications and the fire alarm costs.Buying quality match ammo and importing it in bulk was a cheaper option!

    And they don't care if you make or reload five deer rounds or 500k worth of ammo under the legislation.THIS is what we have to work under in law.This is legislation that makes sense if you are setting up an ammo factory,not reloading 100 rounds for deer season or a rifle match.
    They do understand what we are about too,but it would take an Oireachtas act to change this primary legislation, Its compounded with difficulties now with EU and UN!legislation on explosive transport,and everyone in officaldom is going to be paranoid about doing this as the rules of ABC CYA will kick in on this big time.


    Section 15-20 of Explosives Act and the Stores for Explosives Order
    2007 - S.I. No. 804 of 2007 (Note this Order replaced Stores for
    Explosives Order 1955 – S.I. No 42 of 1955) deal with licensing and
    regulation of stores by the local authority. Any person may apply for a
    licence with the local authority and the application fee is fixed by the local
    authority within the limit set in the Act. The Application Form and Order
    is available on DJE website www.justice.ie .
    ii) The local authority shall not grant the licence unless satisfied that the fire
    officer and a Garda have inspected the store and confirmed that it meets
    their requirements. Prior to the granting of a licence, the applicant must
    ensure that a risk assessment on possible fire and explosion hazards is

    GD 6/2010
    Guidance Notes for Public on Explosives Legislation
    Last revision 14 July 2014
    7 of 24
    carried out and that the store is at all times operated under the supervision
    of a competent person.
    I]No definition in law as to who or what qualifications[/IThe licence may be granted for a period of up to 5
    years. Construction requirements for the store are also detailed in the
    Order. Additional guidance on Fire Safety aspects of local authority stores
    is available from Department of Environment, the local authority, or from
    the DJE website.
    [A fire alarm that cost back then 3,500 eurs]

    iii) In this Order, for the purposes of storage, explosives are divided into four
    hazard types and the maximum quantity of explosives (of any hazard type)
    permitted to be stored in a local authority store is 2,000Kgs. The explosive
    limit is determined by the available separation distances. Comprehensive
    tables showing the separation distances required to be kept between a store
    and any other infrastructure for each hazard type and quantity of
    explosives are contained in Schedule 4 to the S.I. There are some
    exemptions from separation distances for the storage of small arms
    ammunition provided for in the S.I, once certain conditions are met.
    Controlled substances, (including ammonium nitrate, sodium chlorate,
    nitrobenzene, potassium nitrate, sodium nitrate and emulsion matrix) up to
    a maximum quantity of 50,000Kgs, may also be stored in a local authority
    store subject to certain conditions.
    c) Registered Premises
    i) Sections 21-29 of Explosives Act 1875 (and Appendix F of Guide to
    Act) deal with registration of premises for storage of explosives with the
    local authority and the regulation of the premises. Any person can apply to
    the local authority and if the fee1 is paid (equivalent to one shilling) and if
    the general rules are observed, then the local authority registers the
    premises to permit the storage (Application Form on DJELR website). The
    registration must be renewed annually. There are two modes of storage,
    each with different limits and sub-divided into three Groups:


     Mode A : A substantial building (constructed of brick, iron, stone or
    concrete or an excavation in solid rock) or a securely constructed fireproof
    safe detached from a dwelling at a safe distance from a street or public
    place. General limit = 90.72 kg (200lbs) mixed explosives.
    Mode B: A substantial receptacle or safe inside a dwelling house or public
    room. General limit = 22.68kg (50lbs) or double this if kept in a fireproof
    safe.
    1


    THe most revelant form and part to us

    d) Keeping of Explosives for private use and not for sale
    Order in Council No 12 provides for a person to apply for a Garda Certificate 2
    that he is a fit person, to keep for private use, up to 10 lbs of an authorised
    explosive, for any industrial, agricultural, sporting or other special purposes, (as
    specified on the certificate). The certificate is valid for up to one year from
    date of issue.
    2 This certificate is known in the Garda Siochana as a “C49” form.


    Trouble is AGS will not issue and haven't issued C49s since 2006!

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 Kandjen


    Appreciate the replies and feedback. Not to sound like I'm trying to re-hash everything said in other threads related to the same topic but I find it crazy in this day and age that this is still an issue. I have experience reloading with a friend for his .308 when I lived in the UK and it's no big deal over there.

    I mean now a days, this country is ment to be progressive and has changed laws on same sex marriage and abortion but yet the idea of reloading for those who wish to seems a real sore spot...wtf?

    Surely, a body like the NARGC or some other body can mount some sort of repeal against antiquated laws in this area....?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    Fair play to ye grizz.
    A lot of effort there.
    I recently seen a TV show which covered gun powder manufacturers in Ireland. In this show a limerick man loaded a musket with black powder and discharged it for demonstration purposes. He was not a scientist but instead a rare breed know a a gun enthusiast.... he declared this if I remember correctly.
    This all occoured recently and within Irish jurastiction too. So it would seem that some are allowed reload or at least have access to powder and percussion caps...?!?!

    I seem to remember being told of a time when 30cal rifles were banned in all practical terms but there was still those who could obtain them. I have it from a fairly reliable source within the gun trade that he knew of several instances of this happening and the lucky holders of such firearms were apparently warned to not to divulge knowledge of their possession of such items as this would see the licence for such items being revoked forthwith.


  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭ solarwinds


    All you have to do is get the snowflakes and keyboard warriors to think shooting is cool and trendy. You might see some change then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭ tac foley


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Fair play to ye grizz.
    A lot of effort there.
    I recently seen a TV show which covered gun powder manufacturers in Ireland. In this show a limerick man loaded a musket with black powder and discharged it for demonstration purposes. He was not a scientist but instead a rare breed know a a gun enthusiast.... he declared this if I remember correctly.
    This all occoured recently and within Irish jurastiction too. So it would seem that some are allowed reload or at least have access to powder and percussion caps...?!?!

    I seem to remember being told of a time when 30cal rifles were banned in all practical terms but there was still those who could obtain them. I have it from a fairly reliable source within the gun trade that he knew of several instances of this happening and the lucky holders of such firearms were apparently warned to not to divulge knowledge of their possession of such items as this would see the licence for such items being revoked forthwith.


    Demonstration using black powder firearms of the kind in use when Cromwell was in Ireland, and later, used to be a popular part of any re-enactment scenario of that period.

    However, all this is now history, to coin a phrase, after one shooter of a musket of some kind inadvertently left the ramrod in the barrel, and the blank charge had sufficient oomph [a technical term, I'm told] to launch it many metres into the ether. In a safe direction, of course, but a terble worry for the organisers, nonetheless.

    So the whole deal was deemed unsafe by the PTB, and live-firing of replicas of two or three-hundred-year old musketry or arquebuserie, using blank loads, is no longer permitted in the Republic. Perhaps the organisers wave a large flag bearing the words 'volley fire!!!' at the appropriate time - who knows?

    Does this cover the midday gun at Spike Island? Do they wave a flag bearing the word 'BOOOOM!!'

    Curious minds wish to know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Wasn't reloading offered to the shooting community, and it was turned down by a shooting org ? Afraid it would dent the revenue of their trade members perhaps ?

    I do envy the lads in the uk, on some of the forums, they buy a new hunting rifle, and instead of buying a heap of different ammo, they buy a set of dies, primers, powder, cases and bullets and off they go, no problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭ tac foley


    As I bleeve I pointed out at the time, gun store revenue for reloading supplies is more than equal to the amount spent on factory ammunition.

    Why should that be?

    Simple to explicate. The more you reload, the more you CAN shoot if you want to. Those who buy maybe one of two boxes of factory ammuntion a year continue to do so - obviously reloading is not for them. However, those of us with multiple calibres, or users of different loads for different purposes, WILL shoot more, and will spend our hard-earned money in our LGS on the consumables. It also means that the acquisition of ammunition is not a post-code lottery - how many posts here are shooters asking who has what and where is it?

    I'm not going to discuss the laws here except to say that they are the laws, and have to be lived with, and obeyed or else. Over here in mainland UK we look at you in the Republic with great envy. Not only can you have a handgun that still looks like a handgun, but you can participate in any competition that employs a .22cal standard pistol, unlike us here, for whom that has been prohibited since 1997. You can also have semi-auto centre-fire rifles and carbines, again something that we cannot have, and that's since 1987.

    If you are serious about reloading for target rifle shooting, then joining the appropriate section of target shooters based at the Midlands NSC may help you move forwards in your ambition. This has been covered in great detai over the years since 2011 by Cass.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 Kandjen


    Yeah I've gone back through 99% of the reloading threads and hence why I brought it up again because nothing seems to change.

    Perhaps a petition of sorts to have some sort of amendment or "meet us half way" sort of thing.... I know, I know.... not gonna happen, but progression can only happen if theres movement and some movement is better than nothing at this stage.

    For me, travelling to the midlands rifle range would be too far to reload rounds and the membership fee is pricey, not to say it's not a great facility, I have shot there before but for an average Joe looking to reload, it shouldn't be as ridiculous as it is...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Kandjen wrote: »
    A

    Surely, a body like the NARGC or some other body can mount some sort of repeal against antiquated laws in this area....?

    They were offered it in 2008,but a certain individual or individuals in that body refused it for hunters.As "their members wouldn't be interested in that".Along with throwing IPSC and cowboy action shooting to the wolves.:mad:
    So I doubt very much NARGC would be the first port of call on this.

    Can I point out a mentality of Irish politicians and minority groups? It's also one of the reasons Ireland also lost sits fishing grounds to the EU.An FF politician was once asked about this and the reply was" Shure if you cant get us enough votes in the shooting crowd, what good are ye to us? We dumped the fishing lot as well as they couldn't get us enough votes together to get a man voted to the Dail." IOW are there more farmers than fishermen in Ireland?So who will vote for you?

    The "Aul Vote" is their be all and end all, and we are too dispersed to be able to vote anyone in en bloc.No one is going to tamper with the levers of power in the Dail for the betterment of us.Its get power for power's sake and let the EU make the big boys decisions for Ireland. So no one is going to stick their heads around the corner for us on this and say "Lads the gun laws and reloading laws here are an almighty clusterfuk.Hers a bill to modernise and consolidate them out of 50 different acts in Irish law."

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭ Pkiernan


    So annoying.

    I loaded hundreds of 12 gauge Hevi shot loads when I lived in California.
    No bother at all and saved about $3a round.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    They were offered it in 2008,but a certain individual or individuals in that body refused it for hunters.As "their members wouldn't be interested in that".Along with throwing IPSC and cowboy action shooting to the wolves.:mad:
    So I doubt very much NARGC would be the first port of call on this.

    Supreme stupidty again :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I don't normally reply to these threads anymore because i said it umpteen times and people may be sick of hearing it, however once more for the LOLs.

    The simple fact is this, and it relates directly to this:
    Kandjen wrote: »
    Surely, a body like the NARGC or some other body can mount some sort of repeal against antiquated laws in this area....?
    They ALL refused reloading. Not just the NARGC, but the NASRPC, NTSA, etc. etc..

    Every single shooting body refused reloading. It was such a surprise the DoJ allowed an additional three/six months for groups to apply for it, and none did.

    One group did eventually apply AFTER the closing date, but failed in their attempt not due to time, but i'd imagine because they had no range, no grounds, IOW, no chance.

    So why the hell everyone was, and still gets, so upset because they didn't get or don't have reloading when it was slapped away when offered to them still baffles me.

    BTW the invitation was also open to individuals and had more people applied for it perhaps we'd be in a different situation now, but the mass refusal of it showed the Doj that pretty much everyone wasn't bothered.

    You might think it unfair to those not associated to a group, range or club, and you're right, but the DoJ don't talk to smaller groups and most definitely not to individuals so they rely on the larger associations to represent the whole community. It's why i've screamed from the fecking roof tops to contact the various groups, whether you're a member or not and let them know your thoughts and what you think of their actions.

    The reloading issue is just another example of people being pissed off at the wrong people over something they could have had but decided not to be involved with until it was taken away from them and then it's too late.

    Now none of this applies to you, or to the majority of lads that knew nothing about the goings on committee level, but that is another example of how the other groups have let down the shooting community.

    Never has anything shooting related being repealed or reversed so once it's gone, it's gone.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Kandjen wrote: »
    .......... and the membership fee is pricey, ..............

    €300 a year, pricey?

    I know the first year comes with an administration/joining fee but every club has that, and it's a form of protectin for any club/range that imposes it. Stops people joining simply to get a license for a firearm they normally wouldn't be able to get and never attending the range. The yearly fee is among the cheapest in the country compared to most other ranges, and the cheapest when you compare it to any other range for facilities.

    It's also many times cheaper than ranges in Dublin with a fraction of the facilities. My old club in Dublin is now charging in the region of €800 per year, every year, for a single rimfire range and adjoining pistol range..

    Reloading should be available for everyone. It's not going to save you money but will provide you with some serious;y accurate ammo. However with refusal of it by 99% of the groups, and a staunch anti firearm Government we have little chance.

    The other side is we want to be careful trying to shine a light on it, because change to the laws may come, but i've never seen any that have been even close to what we want, and usually it's more restrictive than we'd like.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭ DogfoxCork


    sorry to ressurect an old thread, but was there ever any development on this or anything that could be done? sounds like utter madness 😫



  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Midlands was the only range that put their hand up and said they wanted it, so still today it is the only place where you can do it.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban

    2023 Gun Ban - Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭ civdef


    So, suppose there was a group like an Irish Ammunition Development Society - a non-profit that would work to develop training courses and safety advice for members with a view to developing the ability to optimise/ develop / reload rifle ammuniton - would there be interest in such group?



  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭ DogfoxCork


    I'd guess there would be great uptake with that if it came to be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 513 ✭✭✭ tonysopprano


    Why only rifle?, why not pistol and shotgun as well?.

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭ civdef


    I suppose no reason really - whatever the interest is there for.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    It already exists, in the Midlands. Anyone can join, learn, develop and practice. Start there and perhaps it might move out from the Midlands.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Because while we throw the name Midlands around it wasn't the Midlands but the NRAI that was granted permission to reload for F-class shooting. The Midlands was simply the venue where the facilities were built.

    A subtle distinction but an important one.

    As the NRAI only deal with NRAI disciplines that is what the scheme was limited to. It's also why not everyone can reload even being a member of the range. You must partake in F-class shooting.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ BSA International


    In Ireland ........ 1st item on agenda ..... "The Split", 2nd item "who's gonna make the dosh from the spurious courses?" ..... and item 3 "another split among those hoping to make easy money from said courses...." etc etc

    🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭ Zxthinger


    The reality of it that reloading is something that should be done in a private setting with no distractions etc..

    The whole idea of accepting that which was proposed as a suitable solution was really only people get crumbs from the table and walking was satisfied

    Also..

    As far I know you can only reload if the outlet has the products and hear that no one is currently able to obtain products via this soul club.? Is that the case still..

    Also, I explored the idea of reload for a somewhat obscure cartridge but I was told that it was limited to 223 and 308..

    I see in the north, they have F Class and FTR and one of them permits and cartridge below a prescribed maximum


    It’s no wonder that people regularly give up on shooting here as a pastime..



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Fun fact! You can reload ammo in Ireland, and you don't have to be a member of anywhere or have any qualifications either.

    You just have to fulfil ALL of the 2007 SI Storage of Explosives order.[Forget about that 1875 act which is basically playing a second fiddle to the aforementioned on this topic] that deals with making ammo in Ireland, and figuring out where and how you will get your powder and primers from either NI, the UK or EU into Ireland, which doesn't cost the Earth in specialised transport by road and ferry.

    An Irish solution to an Irish problem in the DOJ's eyes. They are also only too happy to help us out too in any shape or form, but it has to be done by the book to the last dotted I and crossed T, and as Midlands was the only project done so far.

    Every Govt dept involved was in utter CYA& ABC mode, as this was a 1st off and it, unfortunately, set the precedent for requirements to be followed by others wishing to reload ammo.

    The SI is perfect and logical if you were going to open an ammo factory/explosives plant somewhere, and a lot harks back to what caused the explosion in the Kynoch ammo plant in Arklow in 1917 https://www.historyireland.com/arklows-explosive-history-kynoch-1895-1918/

    However, it is utter overkill for the likes of us who want to reload a dozen specialised rounds for the deer season or customise a load for our rifles. But as they classify reloading as "manufacturing" ammo, the above SI applies.

    So two choices; Go with the above SI, and if you have that sort of money, why not just open an ammo plant straight off?

    OR

    Get the legislation changed to allow home reloading. I'd give that option here a less than a snowball's chance in Hell.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,431 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    It’s no wonder that people regularly give up on shooting here as a pastime...

    Or just quit living here and move to the Kings part of Ireland to enjoy relative freedom to pursue their sport.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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