Peter Casey's beliefs of Travellers' ethnicity Part II

Doctor Jimbob

tayto lover wrote: »

So why all the furore?
As I see it Casey brought it up and it resonated with people, particularly those who see traveller "culture" in action on a regular basis AND no other politicians raise their concerns.

I honestly have no idea. People were talking about these issues long before Casey came on the scene. There's talk of no representation from politicians, but that's still the case as well - Casey isn't a politician, and I don't get the impression he has or had any real intentions of becoming one.

It's not as if people don't know there are issues with a large amount of the traveler community. This isn't something that had been swept under the rug until the brave Casey took a stand against it.

I don;t even personally think what he said is particularly controversial. I'm just baffled by the fact that expressing a popular opinion for votes is being interpreted as taking a brave stand.

PlaneSpeeking

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I honestly have no idea. People were talking about these issues long before Casey came on the scene. There's talk of no representation from politicians, but that's still the case as well - Casey isn't a politician, and I don't get the impression he has or had any real intentions of becoming one.

It's not as if people don't know there are issues with a large amount of the traveler community. This isn't something that had been swept under the rug until the brave Casey took a stand against it.

I don;t even personally think what he said is particularly controversial. I'm just baffled by the fact that expressing a popular opinion for votes is being interpreted as taking a brave stand.

To quote Orwell - "In a Time of Universal Deceit — Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act"

May not have seemed brave to say it but people have lost careers for less these days. It's insane. I've been told "you can't think that" - in relation to my saying Margaret Cash was a criminal.

She has criminal convictions, ergo..... but apparently the approved groupthink is that she's a "poor, victimised single mother trying to the best for her kids". Which is clearly bollocks.

Good on Casey for actually standing by what he said.

Phoebas

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I've yet to have anyone give me a satisfactory explanation as to why one white person born in Dublin is somehow a different ethnic background to a different white person born in Dublin.

I think maybe you're conflating ethnicity with nationality.

the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition

.

I don't think anyone would argue that travellers don't have distinct cultural traditions. Whether those traditions are valuable these days or even important anymore to many travellers is another question.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

Funny that you held the opposite view with the 50/50 bread man.
You called that a rant too.
Flip flop Francie.

I simply believed that the evidence re: the bread incident did not support the idea that somebody became a vicious sectarian thug 20 years after working hard for the peace.

The evidence supports my theory that somebody used the tactic of 'hate speech' to rouse a previously unheard from rabble of approx 10% of the population.

Casey's further performances (not his past) further convinces me of that. Because as of yet he has entirely failed to validate what he is saying or present any solution acceptable to democrats.

PlaneSpeeking

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I simply believed that the evidence re: the bread incident did not support the idea that somebody became a vicious sectarian thug 20 years after working hard for the peace.

The evidence supports my theory that somebody used the tactic of 'hate speech' to rouse a previously unheard from rabble of approx 10% of the population.

Casey's further performances (not his past) further convinces me of that. Because as of yet he has entirely failed to validate what he is saying or present any solution acceptable to democrats.

Well there's common ground with a few of the anti-PC posters here then!

And the last part - what is the solution to stop Traveller criminality ?

tayto lover

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I honestly have no idea. People were talking about these issues long before Casey came on the scene. There's talk of no representation from politicians, but that's still the case as well - Casey isn't a politician, and I don't get the impression he has or had any real intentions of becoming one.

It's not as if people don't know there are issues with a large amount of the traveler community. This isn't something that had been swept under the rug until the brave Casey took a stand against it.

I don;t even personally think what he said is particularly controversial. I'm just baffled by the fact that expressing a popular opinion for votes is being interpreted as taking a brave stand.

I don't believe he said it for votes. He said it because he believed it.
I don't think Casey has the brains to say it to get votes actually. It seemed more like hitting on something by accident while telling the truth as he saw it.

FrancieBrady

freshpopcorn wrote: »

They are as much Irish as I am. – Kevin O’Keeffe

I believe we live in a republic where all our citizens should have equal rights and equal responsibilities. – Robert Troy

I wouldn’t see the point in singling them out as any different. They are the same as any human being. – Michael Collins

A case has not been convincingly made for the designation of a distinct ethnic status for the Travelling community. – Mattie McGrath

Dig further and you will find plenty of councillors expressing those views as well.

The glamour of a Presidential election certainly provoked a certain section of Muddle Ireland.
They are busy mythmaking about Casey.

FrancieBrady

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I've yet to have anyone give me a satisfactory explanation as to why one white person born in Dublin is somehow a different ethnic background to a different white person born in Dublin.

Travellers are Irish. Workshy, entitled and antisocial with a disproportional criminality issue yeah, but as Irish as you and I.

You object to giving them ethnicity, because you believe their is nothing distinct about them then you go on to generalise and make a 'distinction'.

Do you guys ever read back what you write???? :D:D:D

DChancer

tretorn wrote: »

I believe it was unconstitutional to bestow this status in the first place

Well if your that certain of your legal position head on up to the Supreme Court and challenge it.
Otherwise the expression "put up or shut up" comes to mind!

PlaneSpeeking

Whoever invented the ignore button should be up there with Einstein, Franklin and Jenner (not that one!)

Phoebas

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Maiming extended family members at sacred events is no more a "distinct cultural tradition" than FGM or marrying an 8 year old.

True enough, but if that's as far as you can reach when you think about traveller's traditions then I can't blame you for disagreeing with them getting ethnic minority status.

PlaneSpeeking

Phoebas wrote: »

True enough, but if that's as far as you can reach when you think about traveller's traditions then I can't blame you for disagreeing with them getting ethnic minority status.

I've already covered the stealing, aversion to work, animal cruelty, misogyny and domestic violence elsewhere.

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I simply believed that the evidence re: the bread incident did not support the idea that somebody became a vicious sectarian thug 20 years after working hard for the peace.

The evidence supports my theory that somebody used the tactic of 'hate speech' to rouse a previously unheard from rabble of approx 10% of the population.

Casey's further performances (not his past) further convinces me of that. Because as of yet he has entirely failed to validate what he is saying or present any solution acceptable to democrats.

Same answer as I gave earlier. Casey isn't clever enough to plan it the way it happened. His traveller remarks came out in reply to a question he was asked. He simply said what he believed and what many more believed and became a target for it. It did certainly help his cause as he reaped the reward in 347k votes but it happened entirely by accident.
That is the same as my view on the bread man if you want to check that particular thread. Happened by accident. So I fail to see how one can be "hate speech" and the other not, as you deem it to be.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You object to giving them ethnicity, because you believe their is nothing distinct about them then you go on to generalise and make a 'distinction'.

Do you guys ever read back what you write???? :D:D:D

We share the same DNA, transient existence is traced back to the era of Cromwell. In terms of societal norms, a significant majority of travellers engage in nefarious activities - there's your distinction.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

Same answer as I gave earlier. Casey isn't clever enough to plan it the way it happened. His traveller remarks came out in reply to a question he was asked. He simply said what he believed and what many more believed and became a target for it. It did certainly help his cause as he reaped the reward in 347k votes but it happened entirely by accident.
That is the same as my view on the bread man if you want to check that particular thread. Happened by accident. So I fail to see how one can be "hate speech" and the other not, as you deem it to be.

Because the evidence as I see it supports my belief in both cases?

Casey was at 1-2% in the polls, had never mentioned the issue as being of importance in the previous publication of manifesto/pitches. And suddenly he shoehorns a rant on SEMS and equality into a conversation about the homelessness crisis facing us at the moment. Of which the Tipp issue is a tiny tiny proportion.

He then doubled down on it after taking a 'weekend' off. A weekend when he was composing an article for the Sunday Indo in which he played the victim. Something his supporters are still primarily focussed on rather than him expanding on what would make him a Taoiseach.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

We share the same DNA, transient existence is traced back to the era of Cromwell. In terms of societal norms, a significant majority of travellers engage in nefarious activities - there's your distinction.

I leave the DNA stuff to experts.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because the evidence as I see it supports my belief in both cases?

Casey was at 1-2% in the polls, had never mentioned the issue as being of importance in the previous publication of manifesto/pitches. And suddenly he shoehorns a rant on SEMS and equality into a conversation about the homelessness crisis facing us at the moment. Of which the Tipp issue is a tiny tiny proportion.

He then doubled down on it after taking a 'weekend' off. A weekend when he was composing an article for the Sunday Indo in which he played the victim. Something his supporters are still primarily focussed on rather than him expanding on what would make him a Taoiseach.

Can't agree there at all. We will have to differ.
I don't see Casey as a tactical genius at all.
The man told the truth as he saw it and many agreed with him.

DChancer

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And the last part - what is the solution to stop Traveller criminality ?

The same as it is for all criminality.
Lets look at the last few days , two men dead in knife attacks, over €4 million in cocaine seized, a Father sentenced to 15 years for raping his daughter, a guy jailed for 14 years for raping a Spanish student and 3 people including a woman jailed for murder.

And not a Traveller in sight.

Crime is not some unique thing that only Travellers are involved in, indeed there are many parts of Dublin and other cities where the rate of convictions and imprisonment among settled people are inordinately high.

Is criminality an issue that Travellers need to address within their community certainly, but it is also an issue that society in general need to address with wider society.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I leave the DNA stuff to experts.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

Genetic mutation after excessive inbreeding, well I never.

riffmongous

sydthebeat wrote: »

Can't believe this thread actually made it to 10,000 posts



Seems there's a lot more interest in Peter Casey views than some will admit

About 3000 of them came from just 13 people...

Plumbthedepths

Rather amusing that the poster on this thread with the most posts, majority of which are attacking Casey is an ardent supporter of the political wing of an organisation that was involved in the murder of thousands of people. How did the Sinn Fein candidate fair again, must have been terrible for the SF supporters to see Casey from nowhere wipe the floor with their candidate.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

Can't agree there at all. We will have to differ.
I don't see Casey as a tactical genius at all.
The man told the truth as he saw it and many agreed with him.

Nothing 'genius' about it. One of the oldest political tricks in the book, curiously very popular and successful for various heads around the world.

Plumbthedepths

riffmongous wrote:

About 3000 of them came from just 13 people...

Nearly 1000 from just 1 poster

FrancieBrady

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Rather amusing that the poster on this thread with the most posts, majority of which are attacking Casey is an ardent supporter of the political wing of an organisation that was involved in the murder of thousands of people. How did the Sinn Fein candidate fair again, must have been terrible for the SF supporters to see Casey from nowhere wipe the floor with their candidate.

The SF candidate the 'ardent supporter of SF' wasn't supporting? :rolleyes:

tretorn

DChancer wrote: »

The same as it is for all criminality.
Lets look at the last few days , two men dead in knife attacks, over €4 million in cocaine seized, a Father sentenced to 15 years for raping his daughter, a guy jailed for 14 years for raping a Spanish student and 3 people including a woman jailed for murder.

And not a Traveller in sight.

Crime is not some unique thing that only Travellers are involved in, indeed there are many parts of Dublin and other cities where the rate of convictions and imprisonment among settled people are inordinately high.

Is criminality an issue that Travellers need to address within their community certainly, but it is also an issue that society in general need to address with wider society.

But there just the crimes that the Gardai have investigated.

We dont have access to the statistics relating to burglary in the rural community and even when the most serious of these burglaries is reported we arent told whether the ethnic minority are involved or not.

Even in cases of insurance fraud where travellers are involved we can be pretty sure they are travellers once we see the surname but crime reporters wont say they are travellers.

Is anyone recording information relating to traveller criminality or is it illegal to record what background criminals are from.

I would be all for giving travellers ethnic status if that status could be used by Gardai and insurance companies and Revenue etc to keep detailed records relating to travellers. They cant have it all ways, ie clamour for ethnic status and then whine when this description is put on travelling gangs terrorising elderly people in their homes. Many of these elderly people are terrified by travellers and they wouldnt report the burglaries so these crimes wouldnt feature in any records kept.

riffmongous

Deleted User wrote: »

Genetic mutation after excessive inbreeding, well I never.

Do you recognise Slovaks, Ukrainians? Do Austrians exist or are they just Germans?

Plumbthedepths

FrancieBrady wrote:

The SF candidate the 'ardent supporter of SF' wasn't supporting?

Just seems odd the highest post count of anyone attacking Casey also happens to be a SF supporter who defends the indefensible on a regular basis. Of course you didn't support the SF candidate, never claimed you did ; -)

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you recognise Slovaks, Ukrainians? Do Austrians exist or are they just Germans?

Apples and oranges, citizens within were effective prisoners of geography for vast tracts of the 20th century. But are conclusively ethnically distinct from say, Russians or Czechs.

riffmongous

Deleted User wrote: »

Apples and oranges, citizens within were effective prisoners of geography for vast tracts of the 20th century. But are conclusively ethnically distinct from say, Russians or Czechs.

How are they distinct? Slovaks especially.. What about Croats and Serbs?

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

How are they distinct? Slovaks especially.. What about Croats and Serbs?

I won't follow you down that rabbit hole.