The rise of fascism in the 21st Century

Cato the Elder

Instead of discussing things with people you don't agree with, you label them racists and sexists and cry about them still being on boards. All it does is drive moderates and people with reasonable views and concerns into the arms of those who harbour extreme views.

The other thing which is clearly visible here it that many people see accurate observations of society, as support of these observations. It's really fascinating that someone sitting in the middle of it all pointing out what's going on ends up getting labeled themselves. Many of us have been predicting this shift for years.


Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

Dohnjoe

The reality is that the internet has turned out to be a bit of a double-edged sword, a great resource for communication and information - but critically on the other hand a source of mass disinformation and toxic communication

This manipulation of information empowers and validates fringes (like fascism)

Highly emotive non-issues are now regularly turned into significant issues that can pivot elections. It's all pretty grim.

Goodshape

mammajamma wrote: »

Group-think, of course, is an issue. But you cant simply fool people to that extent without some strong foundational evidence, usually of the kind that is seen day to day.

What things do you actually see day to day to convince you that "the other side" ("left" vs "right") is to blame for any of your problems?

Or are you going by what you read and infer from the headlines and memes that are shared in the media (be it social or "main stream")?

Perhaps one way to put it is in terms of progress. Progress is the single largest part of happiness. Whereas people before (the "good old times", SOMETIMES misplaced) could get married, get a stable job with security, buy a home and have children without undue stress, these fundamentals of life have been scuppered.

I think you'd have to define what you mean by progress before I can agree or disagree that it's the largest part of happiness.

In a word, globalisation has screwed everything. Tied to globalisation is immigration, wealth distribution from previously rapidly improving countries to now-developing countries (Europe and USA to China and india for example) the staunch dogma of "minority above majority"

Hm. Is globalisation so wrong as a concept? Again you might need to define what you mean exactly before it's debatable. If it's corporations and the mega-rich exploiting developing "markets" to become super-richer at the expense of all of us, then I can see the problem.

But I'd have a hard time agreeing that the poor and down-trodden being a little less poor and down-trodden should affect our own happiness.

I'm not saying it doesn't but I don't see why it should and it's probably not "their fault" if it does. ****ting on these people is misdirected anger.

And, perhaps it's not something people want to think too much about, but the reality is that most people are either Indian or Chinese. It's hardly "minority above majority".

How long until tenements are back?!

That's alarmist nonsense.

What is happening is a kickback against all of it, every single part, whether it be actual immigrants themselves, politicians almost deifying minorities, international mega corporrations, increasing costs.....they'll all be attacked together. Because they have been all lauded together! That's the target now, literally set-up by its proponents in the first place. Its too late to try and sort out the good bits from the bad bits, it has earned the reputation of all bad.

I don't disagree – it's all being lumped together.

I am trying to suggest that perhaps it shouldn't be. Pick your battles and try not to be swayed by the rhetoric into kicking the people below you further down the ladder.

AndrewJRenko

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and casey has just proved that little old ireland is susceptible to this nonsense to, prepare for weird **** to occur

While it is a concern, I'm not so sure that this susceptibility will carry through to the general political environment or to the next general election.


Casey has proved his inability to work with anyone else in the days since the election. He would seem to be congenitally incapable of building a movement that depends on volunteer members, not paid employees. The chances of him building a movement, either a new party or a revitalised Renua or whatever, to achieve critical mass in the highly competitive environment of the next election are slim.

RandomName2

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It's ironic you mention conspiracy theorists since you appear to have the reasoning and rationale of one.

Was this reply meant for me? I asked for evidence of your assertion and you say that I sound like a conspiracy theorist.

Maybe your reply was meant for someone saying we are all being manipulated by media.. particularly online.. to be scared of imaginary foes, while individuals with no real significant power are dressed up as bogey men for us to focus our attention on, like George Soros, in order that the far-right can sweep into power and destabilize the world.

Because that is more what a a conspiracy theory sounds like. I'd even say that, like a lot of conspiracy theories, that it isn't entirely without merit.

Sand

RandomName2 wrote: »

Maybe your reply was meant for someone saying we are all being manipulated by media.. particularly online.. to be scared of imaginary foes, while individuals with no real significant power are dressed up as bogey men for us to focus our attention on, like George Soros, in order that the far-right can sweep into power and destabilize the world.

Because that is more what a a conspiracy theory sounds like. I'd even say that, like a lot of conspiracy theories, that it isn't entirely without merit.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories about Soros, but its clear he's a multi-billionaire, who has donated 80% of his wealth to his own charity, Open Society. Open Society extensively lobbies institutions, media, politicians and NGOs to achieve Soros's own goals. Its arguable that Soros billions of dollars had more influence on western elections over the last 20 years than any Russian facebook accounts. Yet people are collectively losing their minds over the latter, whilst ignoring the former.

Soros for the record considers himself to be a god.

"I fancied myself as some kind of god ..." he once wrote. "If truth be known, I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise they might get me in trouble."

When asked by Britain's Independent newspaper to elaborate on that passage, Soros said, "It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out."

Dohnjoe

RandomName2 wrote: »

Maybe your reply was meant for someone saying we are all being manipulated by media.. particularly online

Which is generally more of a conspiracy view not reflective of the (free) media in general. Ironically the individuals that hold these types of views tend to gravitate toward fringe/alarmist/state-controlled outlets anyway (which are at the end of the quality/truth spectrum)

TLDR; an alarming amount of people can't (or don't) discern between what's true and what is false. Confirmation bias > facts

Maxpfizer

hill16bhoy wrote: »

You've actually just given away the far right's strategy.

Forums such as this one are infested with people who are only too willing to defend the indefensible and utter endless inanities and debate-stoppers from the far right's cliche playbook, the old "snowflakes", "SJWs", "PC brigade gone mad", "liberalism is a mental disorder" and whatever you're having yourself.

The far right have an online presence in Ireland far in excess of their real number, and they are inexhaustible.

It would almost make you think they had no lives. Or are paid trolls. Probably a combination of both, actually.

Incredible lack of self awareness.

So let me get this right, the forum is infested with people who jump to snappy debate stoppers like "SJW" and "PC Gone Mad"...

Buuuuut...

...they also "have no lives" or are "paid trolls"?


Calling folks SJWs and snowflakes = an awful way to stifle debate

Calling folks paid trolls = just grand, nothing to see here

Haha.

"You've actually just given away the far right's strategy"

Weird how it's almost identical to your strategy though, isn't it?

AndrewJRenko

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Calling folks paid trolls = just grand, nothing to see here

There did seem to be a significant number of Casey supporters round here that were very recent registrations on boards. I'm not really one for conspiracy theories, and I'm not sure that Putin's trolling operations would be interested in the Irish presidential race, but there was something strange going on.

wakka12

The things said by brazils new president are not comparable to anything said by trump or farage, as much as some people wish, european and american people would go crazy for the drama created by a leader like jair bolsanaro

Zorya

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There did seem to be a significant number of Casey supporters round here that were very recent registrations on boards. I'm not really one for conspiracy theories, and I'm not sure that Putin's trolling operations would be interested in the Irish presidential race, but there was something strange going on.

Being a recently registered boardsie who may or may not have been here before at some past time, I just wish Putin would pay me a heck of a lot more - If you are listening I am fairly strapped for cash right now, Vlad, and the car needs taxing!

Franz Von Peppercorn

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Read this and tell me they'd still exist.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23471864/devin-nunes-family-farm-iowa-california/

Of course they would exist. Pay more and mechanise. That’s literally how we got out of the Malthusian trap to begin with. It does need strong Labour unions but that’s impossible, as Cesar Chavez and other American unions realised until the take over of leftism by liberalism, with mass immigration; particularly low skilled immigration.

Your arguments are the arguments of the business classes.

The reporter who wrote this article about undocumented labour on Iowa dairy farms was basically run out of the place by the owners of the farms.

One of the farms he wrote about is owned by none other than the family of Devin Nunes, one of Trump's biggest cheerleaders. Nunes is actually cheerleading the potential collapse of his own family's farm.

I doubt it very much.

Franz Von Peppercorn

hill16bhoy wrote: »

You've actually just given away the far right's strategy.

Forums such as this one are infested with people who are only too willing to defend the indefensible and utter endless inanities and debate-stoppers from the far right's cliche playbook, the old "snowflakes", "SJWs", "PC brigade gone mad", "liberalism is a mental disorder" and whatever you're having yourself.

The far right have an online presence in Ireland far in excess of their real number, and they are inexhaustible.

It would almost make you think they had no lives. Or are paid trolls. Probably a combination of both, actually.

You pretty much call anybody who disagrees with you far right. This name calling isn’t really conducive to sensible debate.

That said you aren’t really indistinguishable from an economic libertarian.

Goodshape

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course they would exist. Pay more and mechanise.

Playing devils advocate here a bit but if "they're taking our jobs" is really the source of anyone's pain then mechanising isn't going to make them any happier.

But someone is getting rich on the back of this setup. Evidently it's not the migrants. Probably it's not the farmer who needs this just to scrape by. And it certainly isn't the "libtard snowfalkes", the "fascists", or the "LGBTXYZs".

So the **** are we fighting each other for?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Goodshape wrote: »

Playing devils advocate here a bit but if "they're taking our jobs" is really the source of anyone's pain then mechanising isn't going to make them any happier.

There will be less competition for jobs so they won’t be automated out of jobs.

But someone is getting rich on the back of this setup. Evidently it's not the migrants. Probably it's not the farmer who needs this just to scrape by. And it certainly isn't the "libtard snowfalkes", the "fascists", or the "LGBTXYZs".

So the **** are we fighting each other for?

Probably is the farmer actually.

Goodshape

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There will be less competition for jobs so they won’t be automated out of jobs.

There'll be less competition for no jobs at all. Meanwhile, profit will go up.

Add to those that only those with the existing available capital or credit will be able to mechanise in the first place. The rest will be forced to sell to those who have.

Probably is the farmer actually.

The small, good natured, old-timey farmer? Very doubtful.

The "farmer", meaning whoever owns the land, the machines, the contracts, then yeah maybe.

Still has precious little to do with "leftists" or "fascists" or "snowflakes" or what gender pronoun you want to be called or simply can't stand calling someone else.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There did seem to be a significant number of Casey supporters round here that were very recent registrations on boards. I'm not really one for conspiracy theories, and I'm not sure that Putin's trolling operations would be interested in the Irish presidential race, but there was something strange going on.

Ahh the self awareness of an islander....so, you think the Russians got behind Caseys campaign...was it at the start of the campaign or after he made a statement about Travellers?

Do you think the Kremlin have a vested interest in a meaningless political office in a backwater like this place, altho, come to think of it the Russians have been accused of homophobia in the past....you could be on to something....go on...

jmayo

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Peter Casey's comments were endlessly discussed and, sadly, completely set the agenda for the last week of the Presidential campaign plus the post mortem.

Ever wonder why?

Would it have anything to do with fact that a lot of people actually liked the fact he went against the media and socially liberal driven consensus and actually in his own limited way articulated what a lot of people actually think about travellers and laterally the careerist social welfare spongers.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The Travelling Community is Ireland's most marginalised group, ethnic or otherwise. There are precisely no people who dispute that the undoubted issues within the Travelling Community should be debated. What reasonable people say is that these issues can and should be debated without resorting to crude generalisations and vilification of that community.

That's both the intellectually superior and morally superior position to take.

Why are they marginalised ?

The unvarnished inconvenient truth is they have got opportunities for education, for homes ala the prime example in Tipperary that sparked all of this, but they refuse to take the opportunities.
In the case of the homes it's that they didn't come with stables and grazing land.
FFS give us a break.

They withdraw their children from education and rather than have a go at them, people like you will claim it is the fault of the rest of society and demand even more taxpayers money is diverted, through no doubt another sponging NGO, to yet another initiative to get their kids to stay in school.

Likewise when we discuss the huge levels of criminality endemic in the traveller community you and your ilk will shout about how unfair we are, it is not all of them even if very very high and besides it is not their fault.
Well why don't you go down to Tipperary and tell the Corcoran family that it is their fault for being attacked, it wasn't the fault of the attackers.

And then tell that to all the other victims of traveller crime.
See how the honest decent people of the likes of Rathkeale spoke at the ballot box the other day.
They live with them and they are sick and tired of the shyte.

But of course all these people are racists and bigots to you.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Peter Casey did not attempt to do this whatsoever. He deliberately whipped up resentment and hatred against Travellers in order to get some cheap votes.

That's intellectual bankruptcy for you.

I haven't seen a single Casey supporter discuss or even acknowledge issues like why the rate of suicide among Travellers is seven times higher than among the settled community, or an acknowledgment that many employers (I've read as much as 70%) refuse to hire Travellers.

There is a very valid reason why people do not hire travellers.
Maybe when you have been continually visited by travellers scoping out what they can steal, then it is damn hard to put faith in another traveller, no matter how good they may be.
How many people have had elderly relatives harassed by travellers?

They have a reputation and it wasn't earned from nowhere.

Yes they have high suicide rates, they also have high rates of unemployment, high rates of criminality, high rates of young marriages.

They Ireland's Mississippi, they score high in anything bad and low in anything good.

And would any of it have anything at all to do with themselves ?

You are a typical modern leftie socially liberal character who actually excuses some groups bad behaviour and failures because you believe they are not at fault for them.
It's as if they are children and incapable of rational thought and to me that stinks of an arrogant superiority complex.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

We can guess why that is. It's likely because it would require a bit too much thinking.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that those who found Casey's comments disgustingp, such as myself, portrayed Casey supporters as "lower class ignoramuses", given that Casey's support came primarily from the middle classes, not the lower classes in socio-economic terms, the lower classes preferring Michael D. Higgins. His comments were certainly not aimed at lower class people, given that he vilified those on welfare as well as Travellers, and seems to have a problem with most sorts of welfare in general.

So there was definitely a lot of vilifying people as "lower class ignoramuses", except that pretty much all of it was coming from Peter Casey and those who supported him.

I suppose in non-socio-economic terms, you could call Casey and his supporters "low class ignoramuses", alright, but those terms are clearly not what you had in mind when you made your comment.

You really are playing to type here.
"Someone I disagree with and has a different opinion must of course be an idiot."
And then you wonder why people will turn to the right when this is what the left offers. :rolleyes:

Odhinn

jmayo wrote: »

..................


There is a very valid reason why people do not hire travellers.
Maybe when you have been continually visited by travellers scoping out what they can steal, then it is damn hard to put faith in another traveller, no matter how good they may be.
How many people have had elderly relatives harassed by travellers?

They have a reputation and it wasn't earned from nowhere.

Yes they have high suicide rates, they also have high rates of unemployment, high rates of criminality, high rates of young marriages.

They Ireland's Mississippi, they score high in anything bad and low in anything good.

And would any of it have anything at all to do with themselves ?

................

So if they don't work they're damned, if they try to get work they're damned already. Gas. No way that would trap them in a vicious cycle.

Maxpfizer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There did seem to be a significant number of Casey supporters round here that were very recent registrations on boards. I'm not really one for conspiracy theories, and I'm not sure that Putin's trolling operations would be interested in the Irish presidential race, but there was something strange going on.

It makes perfect sense, really, for a politician to have paid shills doing the rounds on the local messageboards or Facebook pages etc.

Casey did get 300k+ votes though so it's not inconceivable that some of the "supporters" are genuine? Unless Putin was paying people to actually go out and vote for Casey?

What kind of funding do people like Casey have versus how much is would cost to have 2 or 3 people sign an NDA and then pay them minimum wage to post stuff online for a couple of weeks.

The thing that's confused me is why it has to be Russians and ONLY Russians doing this?

Are the USA and the UK suddenly saying "sure, we'll play dirty usually but paying people to forward our interests and spread misinformation on the internet is where we draw the line"? I doubt it.

If it's really that easy and the Russians are doing it then it's safe to assume that everyone is doing it.

I mean, knowing what we know about history you probably have groups "playing both sides" to some extent. Like you'd have a bunch of bots posting stuff and another bunch of bots posting to complain about bots.

Even in the microcosm of Boards.ie I am sure you've once in a while seen posters who are deliberately trying to get thread deleted or locked etc?

So on a wider scale would there be people who have an interest in eroding people's trust in what they read online?

If you look at both sides of the political divide objectively then I think it's fair to say that both have developed ways to dismiss any opposition. "SJW". "Russian Bot". Etc etc.

Sometimes folks are even doing that in the exact same post.

How entrenched do you have to be to say "these people just try to shut down conversation by shouting about SJWs and Snowflakes" and then turn around in the very next sentence and call your opponents "Russian Trolls"?

RiseitekiMind

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It would almost make you think they had no lives. Or are paid trolls. Probably a combination of both, actually.

Yeah and 9/11 was an inside Job and the Jews control the white house.

But the horseshoe theory is just a logical fallacy right?

circadian

Goodshape wrote: »

Playing devils advocate here a bit but if "they're taking our jobs" is really the source of anyone's pain then mechanising isn't going to make them any happier.

But someone is getting rich on the back of this setup. Evidently it's not the migrants. Probably it's not the farmer who needs this just to scrape by. And it certainly isn't the "libtard snowfalkes", the "fascists", or the "LGBTXYZs".

So the **** are we fighting each other for?

Mostly people are fighting each other because that's how the people at the top want it. Trump is the prime example of this with Hsi divisive rhetoric. He cares as much about the working class GOP voter as he does a Dem voter. Divide and conquer, and it's working.

jmayo

Odhinn wrote: »

So if they don't work they're damned, if they try to get work they're damned already. Gas. No way that would trap them in a vicious cycle.

Yes it can be a vicious circle, but then again are you going to be one that takes a chance.

They trap themselves in a vicious circle by not bothering trying to educate themselves out of it.

If they did then smart people like yourself would probably be falling over themselves to hire them as analysts, programmers, etc.
Sure wouldn't it improve your ethnic profile.

BTW let me guess you are the one that welcomes them and gives them the job of tarmacing your driveway, painting your hay shed, replacing your gates, capping your roof, etc, etc :rolleyes:

Odhinn

jmayo wrote: »

Yes it can be a vicious circle, but then again are you going to be one that takes a chance.

They trap themselves in a vicious circle by not bothering trying to educate themselves out of it.

..............

But you already said

There is a very valid reason why people do not hire travellers.
Maybe when you have been continually visited by travellers scoping out what they can steal, then it is damn hard to put faith in another traveller, no matter how good they may be.

. so regardless of what they do, they're screwed. And thats as much to do with your hate and loathing as the ones in their community that act the bollocks.

jmayo

Odhinn wrote: »

But you already said
. so regardless of what they do, they're screwed. And thats as much to do with your hate and loathing as the ones in their community that act the bollocks.

How the fook is hate and loathing, it is a thing called cop on.

I have seen the work travellers have done so there is no fooking way I am going to be the gombeen that takes a chance on the next lot that turns up to do something.
It is my hard earned money that I am spending, not the taxpayers.

I would bet there is little chance you would hire a traveller that turns up at your door.
You are probably like the other 5 spoofers on the debate who claimed they would not mind a halting site next door to them.
Liars.

At least I am fooking honest.
But you will of course dress it up as usual as bigotry.

I spelled it out for you that education is the key, but they don't stay in it.
Why is that ?

And it is people like you that are their worst enemy because you excuse them and thus facilitate the circle continuing.

Odhinn

jmayo wrote: »

How the fook is hate and loathing, it is a thing called cop on.

I have seen the work travellers have done so there is no fooking way I am going to be the gombeen that takes a chance on the next lot that turns up to do something.
It is my hard earned money that I am spending, not the taxpayers.
.

There are jobs that don't involve "fixing gutters" etc.

jmayo wrote: »

I spelled it out for you that education is the key, but they don't stay in it.
Why is that ?

.

Key to what? You said you wouldn't give them a job regardless.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw9qJhvxytg

"They say America first, but they mean America next."

gw80

There's lots of label throwing going on , fascists, libtards, Looney left, nazis, why?
Europe is sick, America is even worse with it's rampant identity politics, every second person over there will list out their family lineage, "oh I'm one part Dutch, and one part French and two parts irish"or whatever your having. Mainly from Europeans.
Maybe we are all just searching for something, something we lost or was taken from us,but we are not quite sure what that something was.
I don't think fascism is the answer but neither is this constant liberal progression, some things are worth conserving.
I don't know, maybe I'm just in a funny mood.
Or am I just dog whistling?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Fintan O’Toole says we are all fascist.

https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1057179279321116673?s=21

Except Fintan, who is great.

It is behind a paywall but you get the idea. One of most welcoming country in the world for immigrants, with no major right anti immigrant right wing party, is fascist because of a concern about travellers. Except Fintan, and the readership of the IT who are living as far away from halting sites as possible. Something which, by the way, isn’t accidental.

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ahh the self awareness of an islander....so, you think the Russians got behind Caseys campaign...was it at the start of the campaign or after he made a statement about Travellers?

Do you think the Kremlin have a vested interest in a meaningless political office in a backwater like this place, altho, come to think of it the Russians have been accused of homophobia in the past....you could be on to something....go on...

Did you miss my reference to Putin?