The rise of fascism in the 21st Century

Try_harder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk

Following the election of a far right leader in Brazil, and Trump and Farage's behaviour, even boards displays it, is fascism on the rise, I say so.

Plumbthedepths

It amuses me to see people use terms, phrases and labels they clearly have no idea the meaning of...... Oh and considering the relaxed level of moderation in AH it's laughable to suggest this is a hotbed of Fascism.

Try_harder

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

It amuses me to see people use terms, phrases and labels they clearly have no idea the meaning of...... Oh and considering the relaxed level of moderation in AH it's laughable to suggest this is a hotbed of Fascism.

It allows fascist views to be aired with little evidence required.

Richard Hillman

You know how actual fascism can get in through the door? When you describe everybody that isn't a socialist as "Far-Right" and overuse the word "fascist" to the extent that nobody pays attention to it.

Then you get a scenario like in Brazil where this guy actually could be a Fascist and nobody pays attention to the shrieking.


Anyway we'll see how it works out. It's a bit of Ying to the Yang of recent decades. Societies got way too liberal and "progressive". The pendulum is going back and will eventually level itself out

Try_harder

Richard Hillman wrote: »

. Societies got way too liberal and "progressive". The pendulum is going back and will eventually level itself out

Could you give me examples of a too liberal society?

What laws were too liberal?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Fascism has,as a basic tenant, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy. I'm not convinced the OP's examples meet that mark.

Try_harder

Dillon Stocky Butter wrote: »

Fascism has,as a basic tenant, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy. I'm not convinced the OP's examples meet that mark.

Can you not see this beginning to happen across the world, Putin meets your definition

Plumbthedepths

Try_harder wrote:

It allows fascist views to be aired with little evidence required.

I've read a few threads here recently where the words racist and bigot were thrown about. When the posters using these words were asked for examples of same...thumbleweed. Maybe you can provide a few examples of this fascist commentary?

Grayson

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You know how actual fascism can get in through the door? When you describe everybody that isn't a socialist as "Far-Right" and overuse the word "fascist" to the extent that nobody pays attention to it.

Then you get a scenario like in Brazil where this guy actually could be a Fascist and nobody pays attention to the shrieking.


Anyway we'll see how it works out. It's a bit of Ying to the Yang of recent decades. Societies got way too liberal and "progressive". The pendulum is going back and will eventually level itself out

To be fair you don't see people calling your average right winger far right or fascist. It's not like anyone's said that about Theresa May. There's a huge difference between her and yer man in Brazil.

Then again, even amongst right wingers who are extremists, fascist might not be that correct description.

Take these guys, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/29/ku-klux-klan-incident-at-islamic-prayer-centre-newtownards-hate-say-belfast-police

they're not fascists but they would be racists/bigots.

We need a new name for it. It's definitely a populist phenomenon of our time, just as fascism was something specific to the 1920s/30s/40s.

Today, fascism is just a lazy catch-all word, largely because everything awful/extreme/far right is dismissed as "fascist" - it could just as easily be the far more enduring "imperialist" but understandably that might be a bit too close to the bone for English speakers in England so calling it "fascist" serves a convenient political deflection, too.

mammajamma

You an call it populism, fascism, authoritarianism, nationalism, whatever.

The only word that truly describes it is "revolt"

The next closest descriptor is "reaction".

People just have a seriously difficult time realising that idealism is an impossibility. That's why it is idealism. It can only pretend to exist in times of plenty.

The world at large is very rapidly learning that not only is idealism an unaffordable luxury that cant happen, it is an increasingly expensive and damaging ideology. We don't have plenty, and there are scarcer days ahead for jobs, health, stability, security. Rich are getting richer, poor poorer. A lot of people have nothing to share, and maybe not enough for themselves already. Its tribalism time, the protection of your group against growing adversity and competition.

The reaction of the world was always going to be this. And always has been. The winds of change are blowing and the childish outcries of some people aren't going to make one iota of difference.

Strap in.

Try_harder

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I've read a few threads here recently where the words racist and bigot were thrown about. When the posters using these words were asked for examples of same...thumbleweed. Maybe you can provide a few examples of this fascist commentary?

Must be recent, you only pegged this month

Try_harder

Try_harder wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk

Following the election of a far right leader in Brazil, and Trump and Farage's behaviour, even boards displays it, is fascism on the rise, I say so.

One must try harder.

Plumbthedepths

Try_harder wrote:

Must be recent, you only pegged this month

So no answer to my question, grand so.

relegated8

relegated8 wrote: »

1488

An astute observation, will you be staying for supper?

Try_harder

Deleted User wrote: »

One must try harder.

that's original

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Try_harder wrote: »

Can you not see this beginning to happen across the world, Putin meets your definition

Having lived in 8 decades, there's nothing brewing now that I haven't seen several times before. Indeed, I've lived through the real threat of fascism and worse. I see no reason for panic as yet.

Try_harder

Try_harder wrote: »

that's original

One must try one's best, under trying circumcisions.

Omackeral

Being critical of something these days is akin to being a Nazi in some circles. Questioning immigration policies and border control makes one a fascist according to some. Pointing out researched crime statistics equals bigotry. The words fascism, bigotry and racism are beginning to lose meaning these days.

Try_harder

Dillon Stocky Butter wrote: »

Having lived in 8 decades, there's nothing brewing now that I haven't seen several times before. Indeed, I've lived through the real threat of fascism and worse. I see no reason for panic as yet.

Not panic, but awareness and alertness, Putin's undermining of the EU because of the freedoms and liberties it gives its citizens. Trump and Farage using fascist iconography (the streams of people poster during brexit)

mammajamma

This pretty much sums it up. A person may be fooled by the inundation of media that everything is rosey, but many, many people without the luxury of mass media on their side, never liked the others ideas and never will.

Try_harder

Omackeral wrote: »

Being critical of something these days is akin to being a Nazi in some circles. Questioning immigration policies and border control makes one a fascist according to some. Pointing out researched crime statistics equals bigotry. The words fascism, bigotry and racism are beginning to lose meaning these days.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Pac1Man

You push too far left you'll get a right leaning reaction.

If there wasn't a recent push for unrealistic global inclusion while ignoring the obvious flaws that comes with that, everything would be grand.

Try_harder

Pac1Man wrote: »

You push too far left you'll get a right leaning reaction.

If there wasn't a recent push for unrealistic global inclusion while ignoring the obvious flaws that comes with that, everything would be grand.

Who, what pushed too far left?

Wibbs

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Oh and considering the relaxed level of moderation in AH...

Thank Christ. Yes that can lead to some daft shite being posted, but far better IMHO than the sometimes overzealous "moderation" of before. Let people talk I say. If they're talking shite on any matter, enough people will be along to point it out. It also reduces the risk of an echo chamber. Something that is gaining pace in the online world. In other discussion areas like Arsebook or Twatter or Dredit dissenting opinions are either down voted or never get invited into the mix in the first place. It's one reason why old style linear posting forums are in decline. They show more diverse opinions and sadly more and more folks seem to want to live in a bubble of what they believe. Consider this if you will: I have seen Boards and AH being described as too Left wing and too Right wing. That suggests it's more balanced over time than most places out there.

Try_harder wrote: »

It allows fascist views to be aired with little evidence required.

To be fair TH, it allows all views to be aired with little evidence required. Though that's another issue in online discourse of late, evidence is ignored if it undermines people's existing opinions and worldview. EG a while back on the subject of immigration from war torn Syria, another poster claimed with no evidence that local Middle Eastern states were pulling their weight in helping. I replied with a post, with evidence in the form of links from local reporters and the like on the ground that showed this was largely a nonsense. In some cases the very opposite was the case. Even after that, the original post got more thanks, because it seems "evidence" if it doesn't square with preexisting beliefs is ignored. The oul "Links or GTFO" is also in decline.

hill16bhoy

Franklin D. Roosevelt said this in 1938.

"Unhappy events abroad have retaught us two simple truths about the liberty of a democratic people. The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any other controlling private power."

I think it's unarguable that many places have already passed this rubicon, and it's even arguable that Ireland meets this definition.

Umberto Eco lists 14 characteristics of fascism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto_Eco

It really is pretty astonishing how many Trump embodies.

Omackeral

Try_harder wrote: »

Correlation does not equal causation.

Riiiiiiight. Well listen, if there are fascists running around on boards I'd suggest you report them. Actually, link their posts to me and I'll report them myself. If there's any out there in real life (real ones now), you should inform the Gardai.

Some would have you believe we're living in an some alt-right dystopia. We really are not. We're about as moderate as you can get over here but just that seems to spurn on certain types to cry out even more. I'd love to see them to go to actual racist or fascist societies and try it. Maybe picket a Saudi embassy or something...

Omackeral

Wibbs wrote: »

Arsebook or Twatter or Dredit

Does that make this Boreds?

Richard Hillman

Try_harder wrote: »

Could you give me examples of a too liberal society?

What laws were too liberal?

Most of Europe.

We wanted to stop immigration and they opened the doors.

We wanted law and order and we ended up with the police being afraid of losing their jobs and courts trying to "reform" as opposed to punish.

We wanted welfare reform and ended up with generations of people unable to provide for themselves

We wanted to preserve our cultures and we had them eroded to suit our guests and the globalists.


Then there is all this nonsense about so called "Hate speech", LBGTXYZ issues, "Diversity", imaginary wage gaps, OTT human rights, EU/UN interference in national issues etc.

It artificially went too far, we're going back to the way things were. They have their 2-3 decades in the sun and now we're heading back to how we've being doing things for millennia. Strongman leaders, alphamales, that lead, that don't bow down, that don't apologize, that will protect the pack

Try_harder

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Most of Europe.

We wanted to stop immigration and they opened the doors.

We wanted law and order and we ended up with the police being afraid of losing their jobs and courts trying to "reform" as opposed to punish.

We wanted welfare reform and ended up with generations of people unable to provide for themselves

We wanted to preserve our cultures and we had them eroded to suit our guests and the globalists.


Then there is all this nonsense about so called "Hate speech", LBGTXYZ issues, "Diversity", imaginary wage gaps, OTT human rights, EU/UN interference in national issues etc.

It artificially went too far, we're going back to the way things were. They have their 2-3 decades in the sun and now we're heading back to how we've being doing things for millennia. Strongman leaders, alphamales, that lead, that don't bow down, that don't apologize, that will protect the pack

Who is we?

I don't want that. Alphamale leaders//? Do they protect the incels?

Pac1Man

Try_harder wrote: »

Who, what pushed too far left?

Everyone did.

Trial by Twitter

27 genders and their associated pronouns.

Requiring a certain number of gender or ethnic representation in certain positions regardless of ability.

The bandwagon jumping during the #metoo movement.

Mass immigration across Europe without consideration.

The enabling of 'white privilege' and similar phrases throughout mainstream media without reason.

Omackeral

Pac1Man wrote: »

Requiring a certain number of gender or ethnic representation in certain positions regardless of ability.

Which, in itself is racism/sexism really.

dr.fuzzenstein

Try_harder wrote: »

Who is we?

I don't want that. Alphamale leaders//? Do they protect the incels?

It's a windup dude. Written for comedy value.
I must admit he had me till alpha males.

Try_harder

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's a windup dude. Written for comedy value.

I'm not laughing.

hill16bhoy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Strongman leaders, alphamales, that lead, that don't bow down, that don't apologize, that will protect the pack

It's hard to do anything but laugh wryly when you read lines like this.

One suspects there's a sort of repressed homo-eroticism beneath this kind of utter rot.

dr.fuzzenstein

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It's hard to do anything but laugh wryly when you read lines like this.

One suspects there's a sort of repressed homo-eroticism beneath this kind of utter rot.

It's either very subtle comedy or a person desperately in need of a hug/shag/help.

mammajamma

Try_harder wrote: »

Who, what pushed too far left?

When you don't "fit in" with society at large, and cannot/don't want to adapt, you seek out to change the society itself. A natural reaction.

Therefore certain small but dedicated elements took hold within educational and media institutions. Fringe elements that would grow and seek to alter the majority to the requirements of the minority.

It is perfectly clear that "the left" has entirely welded itself to the "minority". The only reason it has managed to last this long is due to its infiltration into, and vast over-representation within, media and education. Its lasted about as long as it could, and now its coming to an end.

It has led a merry chase, sometimes even getting the majority to go along for the ride, but the inevitability of a tiny group trying to control a huge group is knocking on the door.

RandomName2

Try_harder wrote: »

Who, what pushed too far left?

Politicians, academia and media are full of very left wing people. They generally mean best, but their means are to belittle their opponents and try and stifle their freedom of expression.

There are some left wing people that hate their country, society, and culture. Some far-left people are even racist or sexist. While these are a small minority, because of the polarization brought about by recent developments - particularly online - these people get put to the fore. The failing of the moderate left is to not treat these people of the far left with the same scrutiny and ridicule as they would those on the far-right. This has had an effect of further polarizing people of course.

Take even the recent event with Paul Casey. Instead of debating whether or not the things he said had any merit, politicians and the media uniformly said that those sort of things should not be discussed, and anybody who agrees with him are lower class ignoramuses. The left is then surprised when there is a negative reaction to an intellectually bankrupt position such as this. 'Morally correct positions' trump evidence based arguments, but who is writing the rules on what's morally correct?

Rather than attempt to win the center and right to their side, more recent tactics have involved shaming individuals (both public and private), boycotting them, blackmailing, and character assassination. The rule of law is seen as expendable, the general will is seen as an obstacle, and the end justifies any means. They might even say that everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fascist. OP.

To answer your question.

1800_Ladladlad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEwlLF5v1IQ

Calhoun

Be interesting to see what happens in Europe with Merkel on the way out. The right is on the rise for sure they haven't got in yet but they are closer than they have been since before WW2.

Hopefully we will nip it in the butt in time but the only way to seriously do this is for people to move away from the edges and back to centre.

What is the best way to shut up a loon ? You let then speak and dismantle their argument piece by piece respectfully with fact and let them hang themselves.

What don't you do ? You don't try and shut them down, silence them or destroy their character if they are as bad as they are they will do it themselves.

You also need to understand not everyone you disagree with is your enemy, they just have a different point of view to you. You will stop people moving to the extreme edges if their is conversation, understanding and compromise.

Finally we need to move away from labeling and demonization of groups, throwing out labels only shuts down conversation and leaves people feeling frustrated and less willing to discuss.

RandomName2

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We wanted to stop immigration and they opened the doors.

It is interesting to see that the AFD in Germany (the far-right) were collapsing in popularity before Angela Merkel made her infamous announcement that Germany would be accommodating a million and a half migrants. Since then, with the bombings, shootings, and rapes, that party has gone from strength to strength, all the while she has refused to see that she has done anything wrong. The fact that the SPD is determined to prop her up and cling onto power has also sealed their demise.

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Strongman leaders, alphamales, that lead, that don't bow down, that don't apologize, that will protect the pack

Strongmen aren't benevolent. They aren't looking out for the nation, they look to put themselves in positions of power. If their will to power threatens democracy, freedom of speech, or rule of law they shouldn't be blindly followed by sheep, but rigorously opposed.

manual_man

Totalitarianism is the threat. Shutting down opposing speech, making people afraid of "consequences" if they don't adopt the strict party line. Introduction of otherizing language in to the mainstream (think "white privilege") as a means to divide and conquer. Makes you wonder

PapaOscar

OP username checks out.

P_1

Aye, saw someone on Twitter earlier highlight the fact that someone mocked the chap who is now president of Brazil on TV a few years back and that's now why we have him as president of the place now.

The worlds gone feckin mad lads

Calhoun

manual_man wrote: »

Totalitarianism is the threat. Shutting down opposing speech, making people afraid of "consequences" if they don't adopt the strict party line. Introduction of otherizing language in to the mainstream (think "white privilege") as a means to divide and conquer. Makes you wonder

Yah it's crazy it goes beyond that just in the past 6 months a game developer called cdProjekt red has had employees doxxed because they made mistake on the social media account.

First time it was a joke on did you assume my gender, not sure what it was the second time but the crime doesn't fit the punishment.

um7y1h83ge06nx

In today's society if you don't conform or if you dare challenge the views of media and political parties it is very easy to be called a fascist.

Almost a badge of honour these days.

sabat

It's because the far-right is perhaps the only true political grouping still in existence. It's not "lefties" or "political correctness" that has created the vacuum the right are filling, but the bland, PR, focus group led, non-entities that have come to dominate politics since the Clinton/Blair era. You could swap Macron, Trudeau, Varadkar, Cameron, Renzi etc around and it would make zero difference-they are all just semi-sentient management types unwittingly serving the perpetual GDP growth demon.

Kermit.de.frog

This is fascism OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btWFHjjqrs

As distasteful the people you mention are they are not fascist.

(Not sure about the Brazilian guy)

piplip87

Here's my theory on the rise of the right.

Some people may not agree with uncontrolled immigration, same sex marriage, they may also be fed up of all these sexualities, the toxic brand of feminism we see daily, They genuinely voice Thier concerns and are branded islamaphobic, homophobic, transphobic, mysogist amoung other names.

These people feeling silenced start to listen to people like Tommy Robinson, now he is an intelligent man who sucks people into supporting him but then he is silenced, him and his followers and people who may not agree with everything he says are pushed further to the right.

To defeat the rise of the far right we need to let them speak be taken on in debates in public. Genuine concerns of people who do not share the leftist narritive must be listened to.


Stop silencing people who may have different views from the SJWs in this world and they will not need to drift to the right.

Try_harder

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is fascism OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btWFHjjqrs

As distasteful the people you mention are they are not fascist.

(Not sure about the Brazilian guy)

I said leading to fascism. Putin certainly displays traits of fascism, as does trump and farage to a lesser extent

Try_harder

piplip87 wrote: »

Here's my theory on the rise of the right.

Some people may not agree with uncontrolled immigration, same sex marriage, they may also be fed up of all these sexualities, the toxic brand of feminism we see daily, They genuinely voice Thier concerns and are branded islamaphobic, homophobic, transphobic, mysogist amoung other names.

These people feeling silenced start to listen to people like Tommy Robinson, now he is an intelligent man who sucks people into supporting him but then he is silenced, him and his followers and people who may not agree with everything he says are pushed further to the right.

To defeat the rise of the far right we need to let them speak be taken on in debates in public. Genuine concerns of people who do not share the leftist narritive must be listened to.


Stop silencing people who may have different views from the SJWs in this world and they will not need to drift to the right.

Tommy Robinson was only silenced for breaking a court order. He has been given a lot of air time in the media and is omnipresent online