Cities around the world that are reducing car access

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553268#Comment_120553268

No it doesn’t as that is a commercial service.

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553233#Comment_120553233

I agree with the criticism of not including the leap card cap, but I'm glad some attention is drawn to the perverse idea of regressive taxation via the TaxSaver scheme. It is bizarre how we subsidise public transport the most for the people who can pay the most for it. I've yet to come across such a system internationally. Is there anywhere in the world which has a comparable system, I'd be curious to know?

I also appreciate that an easy to understand ranking from a large organization is (rightly IMO) drawing attention to how poor public transport is in Dublin even if the objective comparisons are not perfect.

This bit is nothing more than my own 2 cents but I haven't been to any similar sized cities across continental Europe which has been a worse experience than Dublin for public transport, even if the leap card implementation is definitely better than the ticketing arrangements some other cities have.

magicbastarder

are there any easily available figures for the cost (i.e. tax foregone) of the taxsaver scheme?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553701#Comment_120553701

I'm glad some attention is drawn to the perverse idea of regressive taxation via the TaxSaver scheme. It is bizarre how we subsidise public transport the most for the people who can pay the most for it.

Many of the same issues exist with the BTW scheme. A makeover of that is badly needed to make it more equitable

magicbastarder

a removal of VAT on bikes would be more equitable than the BTW scheme. though as is often pointed out, one of the benefits of that scheme, even for lower paid workers, is that it'd often spread the cost of the bike over 12 months for them, thus removing the upfront cost.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553701#Comment_120553701

I suppose that when the scheme was originally designed, there was a recognition that the people least likely to be tempted to get out of their cars and use public transport tended to be those paying the higher tax rates, and this was an incentive to try and change their habits.

Also, the vast majority of people use just one mode of transport to commute, so the capping will be less than EUR 32 per week.

Monthly and annual bus/rail/LUAS tickets are available from any Irish Rail station for anyone to buy, but they won’t get the benefit of the tax reduction.

plodder

Is anyone really disputing that Dublin is the worst capital for public transport though? I didn't realise that the Swords Express isn't covered by the cap. That is typical of how things have improved a small bit but not really as much as it might seem. The new bus stops are excellent btw, and the TFI app is good too.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553838#Comment_120553838

Why would you expect that a commercial service that operates purely for the operator to generate profit for themselves, would be included in the LEAP capping and then effectively be subsidised?

I would understand it if the service were PSO but it isn’t!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553838#Comment_120553838

Not really. I'm sure it's up there, but the "report" makes a fairly dreadful case for that viewpoint. It focuses on the wrong things and is not particularly logically self-consistent.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553926#Comment_120553926

I'd put it the other way round. Why is a commercial service getting the benefit of TFI branding and infrastructure such as LEAP if it's not fitting into their fare structure?

If the answer is that this is some kind of transitional arrangement and that is the way things are moving then that's fine. But, the point stands that we aren't as far along as I thought.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554014#Comment_120554014

They only get the use of the card as a method of payment - it’s up to them what fares to apply.

I would also imagine that they are paying a charge to the NTA for that privilege.

As I said, it’s a commercial service - other operators such as Wexford Bus, Matthews also offer LEAP as a payment method.

I don’t see anything transitional about it - the caps will only apply to PSO services.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553701#Comment_120553701

This is a strangely Irish phenomenon. Also most retail banks in Ireland, if you don't deposit at least €2.5k per month they impose a penalty on you. Effectively its a tax on being poor.

loyatemu

yeah, arguing about the finer details of Leap or Taxsaver is pointless, can anyone honestly name a European capital they'd say has worse PT than Dublin?

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554737#Comment_120554737

That's disappointing in my view, and kind of fits in with the outcome of that survey. Dublin public transport tickets are complicated, ad-hoc and non-transparent. I don't think public transport users want to be bothered about whether a route is PSO or not. I took a look at the Leapcard app there and I see some bus routes are flagged as PSO, but Irish Rail and Luas aren't (which are subject to the cap I think?). Different issue but I also notice two different charges for the same PSO bus journey on different days. We've an awful long way to go before we get a reasonably transparent, easy to use system in Dublin imo.

And wouldn't private operators be better off using debit cards anyway? Why bother with Leap at all, if they aren't fully integrated in the fare system

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557800#Comment_120557800

Nicosia, Valetta, Reykjavik, Luxembourg (free and useless), Istanbul, Ljubljana all have objectively worse PT. Most of these are a lot smaller than Dublin ofc and Istanbul is part of the developing world so probably no reasonable comparison. Worst in out class of city but deffo not the worst European capital

cgcsb

Also Dublin PT has improved a lot in recent years and I'm not sure why people are complaining about fare structure? It's a flat €2 with discounted fares for the young and free for the old and sick. Seems fairly simple to me. There are private operators outside of that, as standard in most cities. We should have debit card payments though

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557885#Comment_120557885

Unfortunately EU competition legislation makes the differential between publicly funded and commercial services a real thing that cannot be ignored.

Swords Express are a commercial operator who happen to take LEAP as a payment method. That’s all. What method of payment they accept is really up to them.

The only services that capping apply to are the following PSO services:

• Dublin city bus services operated by Dublin Bus and Go Ahead Ireland
• Iarnrod Éireann services within the Short Hop Zone
• LUAS services

The LEAP website explains capping quite clearly: https://about.leapcard.ie/fare-capping

What’s the PSO fare difference on different days that you mention?

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558109#Comment_120558109

Looking at my Leap account I can see my local journey (the same journey) sometimes costs €1.25 and sometimes €1.80. I understand why it happens. You can't expect the bus driver to know all the fares, and they are bound to get it wrong sometimes. The Swords Express journeys seem to be €4.20. Is there somewhere you can see all the fares specified in one place? Okay, I see the link to the capping page. That is useful. I think the individual fares themselves should be specified in one place as well.

I realise now that Swords Express is "private" and not really part of the TFI brand. Maybe it's useful to include it in the journey planner app, but it should be flagged as subject to a different fare structure imo. I know they have their own livery but I'm not sure if the buses include TFI logos (they really shouldn't).

Also not sure I get the point about EU competition law. The TFI branding, Leap system and fare structure should be a single unified system that people can understand. At least that is what we should be aiming for imho.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558271#Comment_120558271

I'm not sure where the 1.80 and 1.25 come from?

The 90 minute fare is €2 or €1.30 for a short hop on DB only. Private operators have their own fares. Free for over 65s and special discounts for under 23s. Seems one of the simplest and cheapest fare structures I know of.

In London you can get a £4 bus fair and who knows what fare on the Private commuter rail operators

Edit, I see London have recently reduced their fares between 2 and 3 pounds. Still very expensive and complex tables of fares

LXFlyer

What operator are you referring to when you mention being charged different fares by the driver? They aren’t Dublin City bus fares?

Swords Express have their own website which details their fares https://www.swordsexpress.com/

The LEAP Website has some info on PSO fares here: https://about.leapcard.ie/about/fares-discounts

It has info on which private operators take LEAP card for payments here: https://about.leapcard.ie/private-operators

The EU competition legislation sets out clear rules that require PSO services and commercial services to be separated financially.

Hence Bus Éireann’s Expressway services (which are commercial and non-subsidised) are completely separated from their PSO services, for example.

It also explains why commercial operators aren’t included in fare capping.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558372#Comment_120558372

No, it was a Go Ahead route. Do they have different fares compared to DB?

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558495#Comment_120558495

Yes, the 197 is under a different fare structure. It's a PSO route, but doesn't fall under the "Dublin city bus services" bracket. It's the same case with the 139. They really should be within the same bracket, mind you.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558495#Comment_120558495

As above, that route and the 139 are not a Dublin city bus routes and are outside the city bus fare structure and caps.

The ticket machine should be telling the driver what to charge though, based on the location of the bus.

JohnC.

So at the end of the day, people are saying it's simple, apart from all the exceptions which you have to visit several different websites to see.

See the problem now?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561384#Comment_120561384

I don’t see the issue, as buses to Ashbourne and Naas have never been anything to do with the city bus services, nor have private operator services. Some people are over-complicating things.

I think that the premise of fare capping applying across all Dublin Bus & GAI city bus routes, LUAS and Irish Rail services within the Short Hop Zone is pretty straightforward.

Also, the LEAP card website has all the information about fares, daily & weekly capping and card validity on one single website.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561525#Comment_120561525

Yeah, it's common enough to have problems between fare types the further out that you go, for example, in London, you can get on a train to one of the airports with an Oyster card, but when you get out there, they'll tell you that oyster was not acceptable and fine you.

magicbastarder

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/06/the-hague-introduces-50-flat-fee-for-parking-to-deter-drivers?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

...

.

CatInABox

https://twitter.com/JanetPHorner/status/1655603551500943360

Some changes being made to College Green, some of them no brainers that should have been done years ago.

The Bus Gate is 24 hours now.

Taxi rank being reduced at Foster place, although they'll be increased at College Green? Bit unusual, probably got a threat from the taxi group that they'd complain about it.

Disabled parking to be kept at Foster Place.

BlueSkyDreams

Are there any plans to repave or gentrify Capel Street since it was pedestrianised?

Now its that way for good, Id have thought DCC would put a bit of life into it and spruce it up.

College Green would be great if they could only ban the buses as well.

Twas a busy road with cars, soon it will be a busy road with buses.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572951#Comment_120572951

Indeed there is, work starting in June on one end of it. It looks good, the link was put up here a while back.