Madeleine McCann

Spanish Eyes

bubblypop wrote: »

There is no evidence of anything, why do you think there was no abduction?

Why do you think there was an abduction? All views are valid here.

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Creol1 wrote: »

There's no smoking gun but my view is that the parents must have been responsible in some way for their daughter's disappearance/death, because, even though there is no conclusive evidence, it is too much of a stretch of credulity to believe anything else.

I completely disagree that it's a stretch of incredulity to believe anything else, I actually believe the theory of the parents doing it is the incredulous theory!

If we believe she was abducted by a stranger, then we have to believe that he managed to steal the child not only without being caught in a busy holiday resort, but that, critically, he did not even leave the merest trace of his own DNA evidence in the apartment; we have to believe that it was a coincidence that world-class cadaver dogs went through several different apartments and alighted on a cadaver odour in the cupboard of the apartment Madeleine had been in; that it was a coincidence that an independent witness testified that he had seen someone matching Gerry McCann's features with a child or the body of a child around the time of the disappearance; and that the professional instincts and judgement of the competent police authority were entirely misplaced and/or motivated by bad faith.

The crime scene was vastly contaminated. There were loads of people in and out of the apartment throughout that evening before it was sealed off for examination.

The independent witness's statement was discounted because Gerry was seen by many people at the Ocean Club; i.e, 10pm - when the alarm was initially raised. How could he be in two places at once?

I just can't swallow all of that, and the denigration of the Portuguese police is something that is particularly jarring and seems to have been a feature of the case from the very beginning in coverage in the English-language media. There seems to be a touch of xenophobia in the way the British tabloids treated the Portuguese police as a mere detail in the case at best and at worst a hostile force engaging in some kind of conspiracy to frame these decent English professionals. The police force are the professionals, are linked internationally to INTERPOL and EUROPOL, and whatever thesis they come to should automatically be the preferred theory, unless there is some clear and solid evidence of corruption or bias on their part. While the McCanns were never charged, it is clear that the police in Portugal formed the view, and have never disavowed the view, that they were the most likely culprits.

Competent Police Force, ok. Read up on the Joana Cipriano case and the subsequent trial of the Police officers involved, including Goncalo Amaral's involvement.

Some of the alternative theories are simply risible. Apparently one idea that was actually seriously pursued by the British police was that Madeleine wandered out of the apartment and fell into a manhole somewhere, thus disappearing without trace. As for the child-trafficking theory, that this young white girl was kidnapped by a dastardly gang of North African child traffickers, this might represent the type of fears that might seem plausible in the minds of a certain segment of the English population, but to anyone else it is fanciful to the point of comical.

It may be fanciful and comical to you, but did you see the section of the documentary that detailed the disappearance of the 11 year old Portuguese boy, Rui Pedro, who was found to have been abducted and trafficked by a paedophile ring? You only have to look at the website for the National Centre for Missing and Exploited children and then call it fanciful.

Involvement of her parents in her death seems to me the most likely explanation, but that's not the same as proof and if I were a member of a jury I wouldn't necessarily vote to convict her parents as probability isn't a high enough burden of proof. Even if they were responsible, Kate and Gerry McCann have built their lives around "searching" for their daughter and have probably reached they stage where they half-believe it; after this time lapse, I doubt they will ever confess, so I don't think we will ever know for sure what happened in that apartment.

If your explaination is so likely, explain how they did it in the timeline involved and how they've managed to get away with it so long?

dark crystal

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why do you care about what I say? It is a discussion, but I just wondered why you are seemingly so personal and kind of stalkerish about it.

Everyone has their theories. All are valid really given the lack of evidence for any theory.

There is really no need to personally target my posts. IMO.

Stalkerish? I'm on the same thread as you, how am I stalking you? Please!


I'm quoting your post, as you have quoted others - if you feel that is somehow targetting you personally, report it.

Spanish Eyes

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why do you think there was an abduction? All views are valid here.

I have already posted what I think based on most likely scenarios, you can go back & read my posts if you like

Spanish Eyes

dark crystal wrote: »

Stalkerish? I'm on the same thread as you, how am I stalking you? Please!


I'm quoting your post, as you have quoted others - if you feel that is somehow targetting you personally, report it.

Ah come on, there is no need to get too invested and personal. But in fairness, you did mention many other posts of mine!

Why not just discuss and post with facts (but there are none are there?). So on we go.

We are allowed to discuss things here, and I think the mods will decide who should be infracted.

Please do not get personal, it doesn't help anyone.

scamalert

Calltocall wrote: »

I agree it was not sensible or right to leave their children alone in an unlocked room they will have to live with that mistake and will be haunted by that forever, that being said an awful lot of this case has been focused on the moral actions of the parents etc which imo has taken the focus off the actual ****ing scumbag who abducted the child and all this back and forth arguing between police forces etc took the focus off him and allowed him to slip through the net.

How about getting story right from beginning before jumping to some bogey man that no one seen and there isn't any evidence off.


As seems your inclined their innocent but yet we have no clue why they made any of the most stupidest decisions leading to disappearing of their child, to which they contributed the most. Since past that its only fairy tales and made up stories that we can continue to speculate on someone taking child, yet events leading up to that is no interest to you as you deem its fault that shouldn't raise any questions, when its actually only solid proof that could been followed on.

Calltocall

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

scamalert wrote: »

How about getting story right from beginning before jumping to some bogey man that no one seen and there isn't any evidence off.


As seems your inclined their innocent but yet we have no clue why they made any of the most stupidest decisions leading to disappearing of their child, to which they contributed the most. Since past that its only fairy tales and made up stories that we can continue to speculate on someone taking child, yet events leading up to that is no interest to you as you deem its fault that shouldn't raise any questions, when its actually only solid proof that could been followed on.

What? I don’t follow you, I’ve said they gave the opportunity to someone with bad intent by leaving their room unlocked, that was their critical mistake, and do you know why they made those decisions?? Imo it was Because they were negligent, because they didn’t think there was someone waiting to abduct their child. They shouldn’t have done that but it doesn’t make them murderers. Also a note was left in the reception area which stated the time they would be away from their kids and also the nights they were away from their room, doesn’t take a genius to figure out someone who wanted to take a child had all the info he needed. And they’re not fairytales btw the charity collector was reported by witnesses, also do you know there were at least 6 sexual assaults against british children that occured in the algarve area in holiday villas by a lone intruder at night, 3 in praia da luz, one in 2005 in praia da luz that involved a man that snuck into a ten year old girls room, no one was ever apprehended. Not fairytales.

Blanco100

Somebody might correct me on this but it didnt seem to be properly explained in relation to exact relationship between the McCanns and the tapas 7. Were they friends who met over the course of the holiday? were they close friend who were acquainted back in Uk?

The Oldfield guy who check on their kids, was he a close friend from home? Very odd to let a bloke you met on holiday check on your kids.

However, being a negligent parent doesnt make them complicit. There would be a whole different spin put on this case if the McCann were an unemployed couple in same circumstances whose kid went missing in Benidorm.

I think they were closed off to certain lines of questioning/closed ranks to a certain extent as they knew they were going to be vilified for leaving their kids alone.

So many theories in fairness, but my own guess would be that the family were under surveillance by a sophisticated trafficking operation who saw a window of oportunity to get in and get out having witnessed the families regular evening habits.

Chances are shes living with a family now and is completely non the wiser.

Trekker09

Blanco100 wrote: »

Somebody might correct me on this but it didnt seem to be properly explained in relation to exact relationship between the McCanns and the tapas 7. Were they friends who met over the course of the holiday? were they close friend who were acquainted back in Uk?

The Oldfield guy who check on their kids, was he a close friend from home? Very odd to let a bloke you met on holiday check on your kids.

However, being a negligent parent doesnt make them complicit. There would be a whole different spin put on this case if the McCann were an unemployed couple in same circumstances whose kid went missing in Benidorm.

I think they were closed off to certain lines of questioning/closed ranks to a certain extent as they knew they were going to be vilified for leaving their kids alone.

So many theories in fairness, but my own guess would be that the family were under surveillance by a sophisticated trafficking operation who saw a window of oportunity to get in and get out having witnessed the families regular evening habits.

Chances are shes living with a family now and is completely non the wiser.

AFAIK they worked together and were long term friends. For the McCanns to have been responsible in the death of Maddie, it would have meant that all the group would have to have been involved to some degree. No way would they all have been able to keep it to themselves this long if that had been the case.

I agree with you and would like to believe that she's alive and relatively well.

Mike9832

Trekker09 wrote: »

AFAIK they worked together and were long term friends. For the McCanns to have been responsible in the death of Maddie, it would have meant that all the group would have to have been involved to some degree. No way would they all have been able to keep it to themselves this long if that had been the case.

I agree with you and would like to believe that she's alive and relatively well.

Not really

Only the parents saw Maddie between 17:30 - 22:00?

That's a lot of time

What I don't understand is why can't the parent's admit they were wrong to leave the babies alone

Kate's mother wanted to shake her for leaving Maddie and toddlers alone, at least she had sense

Trekker09

Mike9832 wrote: »

Not really

Only the parents saw Maddie between 17:30 - 22:00?

That's a lot of time

What I don't understand is why can't the parent's admit they were wrong to leave the babies alone

Kate's mother wanted to shake her for leaving Maddie and toddlers alone, at least she had sense

So do you think it's feasible that either one or both of the McCanns killed Maddie, then joined the group and acted normal? Even if it had been an accidental death this scenario just doesn't seem credible IMO

Mike9832

Trekker09 wrote: »

So do you think it's feasible that either one or both of the McCanns killed Maddie, then joined the group and acted normal? Even if it had been an accidental death this scenario just doesn't seem credible IMO

It's possible

That Irish guy ( Smith ) identified Gerry McCann as the man he saw carrying a young child between those times, think it was around 22.00

He was supposed to be interviewed by Joe Duffy 10 years ago, but it was pulled for some reason, probably government forces behind the scenes at work

Not having a reconstruction of the whole events done by Portuguese police has kept the McCann's out of jail, the whole checks every 15 mins and timelines were a load of crap

Trekker09

Mike9832 wrote: »

It's possible

That Irish guy ( Smith ) identified Gerry McCann as the man he saw carrying a young child between those times, think it was around 22.00

He was supposed to be interviewed by Joe Duffy 10 years ago, but it was pulled for some reason, probably government forces behind the scenes at work

Not having a reconstruction of the whole events done by Portuguese police has kept the McCann's out of jail, the whole checks every 15 mins and timelines were a load of crap

That Smith sighting doesn't make sense. Gerry McCann was at the tapas Bar at 10pm

scamalert

Calltocall wrote: »

What? I don’t follow you, I’ve said they gave the opportunity to someone with bad intent by leaving their room unlocked, that was their critical mistake, and do you know why they made those decisions?

No i dont know why they made any of their decisions, that's why i said any real proof is only what happened on the day she went missing, which to this day has only f all and vague answers 10yo old would give you most likely better explanation to their choice of actions, but good for you seems you have it all figured out, and 10 steps ahead of what happened. True detective

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Blanco100 wrote: »

Somebody might correct me on this but it didnt seem to be properly explained in relation to exact relationship between the McCanns and the tapas 7. Were they friends who met over the course of the holiday? were they close friend who were acquainted back in Uk?

The Oldfield guy who check on their kids, was he a close friend from home? Very odd to let a bloke you met on holiday check on your kids.

However, being a negligent parent doesnt make them complicit. There would be a whole different spin put on this case if the McCann were an unemployed couple in same circumstances whose kid went missing in Benidorm.

I think they were closed off to certain lines of questioning/closed ranks to a certain extent as they knew they were going to be vilified for leaving their kids alone.

So many theories in fairness, but my own guess would be that the family were under surveillance by a sophisticated trafficking operation who saw a window of oportunity to get in and get out having witnessed the families regular evening habits.

Chances are shes living with a family now and is completely non the wiser.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD.htm


Since last Saturday, April 28th 2007, she has been on holiday in Portugal at the Ocean Club tourist complex in Praia da Luz, accompanied by her husband Matthew Oldfield. They travelled from London to Faro airport with their daughter ******, aged 19 months. This trip was organised for a group of nine adults and eight children. Her husband and her daughter are part of the group:

- The couple, Russell O'Brien and Jane Michelle Tanner, with their daughters, **** aged three and a half and **** aged 19 months.

- David and Fiona Payne with their daughters *** aged three years and ***** aged 12 months.

- Gerald (Gerry) McCann and Kate MCann with their twins, Sean and Amelie, aged 26 months and Madeleine aged 4 years.


Also in their group is Diane Webster, Fiona Payne's mother.

The holiday was organised because the men in the group are all doctors, in addition to [as are] Fiona Payne and Kate McCann who worked together for a long time. These shared holidays are usually organised for the whole group, although for the last holiday, last September, Gerry McCann and Kate McCann did not go to Greece with the group.

The interviewee has known the couple, Gerry and Kate, since 2003. Her husband, Matthew, knew them from before

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

MOD

I've deleted 3 posts discussing an unsubstantiated claim that I don't want to see on this thread again.

Calltocall

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

scamalert wrote: »

No i dont know why they made any of their decisions, that's why i said any real proof is only what happened on the day she went missing, which to this day has only f all and vague answers 10yo old would give you most likely better explanation to their choice of actions, but good for you seems you have it all figured out, and 10 steps ahead of what happened. True detective

You can be smart all you like but looking at similar cases of sexual assault on children in the area around the same time and investigating reports of a man hassling people looking for money for a bogus orphanage around the same time in the same area or investigating known paedophiles who lived in the area is not the stuff of fairytale, it may well have been not connected but it should be bread and butter stuff for a team of investigators looking into a missing child and should warrant someone looking into it, my point is that the reports of the sexual assault cases didn’t actually arise until 2013/2014 when it was being investigated by scotland yard, 7 years after the disappearance because imo too much of the focus was on the parents and it distracted the investigators from the actual perpetrator who slipped away. Simple things like no road blocks set up that night allowed that to happen.

I’m not sure what you propose happened here but you seem to be fixed on the actions of the parents in the run up to the disappearance, if you are implying there was cause for suspicion in their actions then you would have to agree that hundreds of parents would have done the same thing that very same night, it’s not something completely out of the ordinary for some parents to do this, it’s reckless and negligent yes and they have to shoulder some of the blame here and live with that forever but their actions on the night of the disappearance are not suspicious imo. If one was to believe the parents killed their child, hid the body and went out dining with friends and acted as if everything was fine and then put on this show to cover it up they would both have to be psychos imo and I just do not see that here, frankly I think it’s completely absurd.

If it wasn’t the parents then the focus switches to who it could have been and that’s what I’ve been discussing here and I’m entitled to do that as it’s an open forum of opinions you have yours and I have mine.

Gringo180

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I dont think the parents done it but what really baffles me is the dogs. They smelt the scent of death and blood in the apartment and there rental car. Maybe they get it wrong once but not twice?

Trekker09

Calltocall wrote: »

You can be smart all you like but looking at similar cases of sexual assault on children in the area around the same time and investigating reports of a man hassling people looking for money for a bogus orphanage around the same time in the same area or investigating known paedophiles who lived in the area is not the stuff of fairytale, it may well have been not connected but it should be bread and butter stuff for a team of investigators looking into a missing child and should warrant someone looking into it, my point is that the reports of the sexual assault cases didn’t actually arise until 2013/2014 when it was being investigated by scotland yard, 7 years after the disappearance because imo too much of the focus was on the parents and it distracted the investigators from the actual perpetrator who slipped away. Simple things like no road blocks set up that night allowed that to happen.

I’m not sure what you propose happened here but you seem to be fixed on the actions of the parents in the run up to the disappearance, if you are implying there was cause for suspicion in their actions then you would have to agree that hundreds of parents would have done the same thing that very same night, it’s not something completely out of the ordinary for some parents to do this, it’s reckless and negligent yes and they have to shoulder some of the blame here and live with that forever but their actions on the night of the disappearance are not suspicious imo. If one was to believe the parents killed their child, hid the body and went out dining with friends and acted as if everything was fine and then put on this show to cover it up they would both have to be psychos imo and I just do not see that here, frankly I think it’s completely absurd.

If it wasn’t the parents then the focus switches to who it could have been and that’s what I’ve been discussing here and I’m entitled to do that as it’s an open forum of opinions you have yours and I have mine.

Even the Portuguese investigation team said at the time that they were under a lot of political pressure to get a result. The media, both British & Portuguese acted disgracefully. There were certain times during the investigation where the McCanns were not allowed to discuss certain aspects of the case, but the journalists asked the questions anyway, making the McCanns look suspicious.

pc7

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

The poor family of the Portuguese boy taken in the 90’s, Jesus there really are things worse than death.

Seeing his photo in the wonderland file is the stuff of actual nightmares

Trekker09

Gringo180 wrote: »

I dont think the parents done it but what really baffles me is the dogs. They smelt the scent of death and blood in the apartment and there rental car. Maybe they get it wrong once but not twice?

Both the McCanns were doctors. It could be possible that one of them was in contact with a corpse in the line of their work? During the segment wth the dogs, it was explained that teh dogs' sense of smell is so acute that they could find and lock onto a scent from years ago.

Plus, it's a holiday apartment, it could possible host 20 - 30 different groups per year. I'm sure that the maid service isn't a deep forensic clean.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Gringo180 wrote: »

I dont think the parents done it but what really baffles me is the dogs. They smelt the scent of death and blood in the apartment and there rental car. Maybe they get it wrong once but not twice?

The dogs got it wrong on the island of Jersey leading to £20 million being wasted looking for bodies that weren't there.

Plumbthedepths

cnocbui wrote:

The dogs got it wrong on the island of Jersey leading to £20 million being wasted looking for bodies that weren't there.

That's not quite true. Information was withheld about results on materials found. Blaming the dogs is just another attempt at discredit. Plus in 2009 'Eddie' was no longer licensed .

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That's not quite true. Information was withheld about results on materials found. Blaming the dogs is just another attempt at discredit. Plus in 2009 'Eddie' was no longer licensed .

What do you mean information was withheld?

Plumbthedepths

cnocbui wrote:

What do you mean information was withheld?

You said the dogs got it wrong in Jersey leading to a 20 million waste. Surely you know the circumstances before you make such a claim?

Creol1

Something Else

Trekker09 wrote: »

Both the McCanns were doctors. It could be possible that one of them was in contact with a corpse in the line of their work? During the segment wth the dogs, it was explained that teh dogs' sense of smell is so acute that they could find and lock onto a scent from years ago.

Plus, it's a holiday apartment, it could possible host 20 - 30 different groups per year. I'm sure that the maid service isn't a deep forensic clean.

Bit of a coincidence though that the dogs were sent into several different apartments and only identified a cadaver scent in the one the McCanns were in, a sent which they also identified on a toy belonging to Madeleine.

The cadaver dogs reacted specifically to the cupboard in the apartment; why would a specific area be significant if we're to believe the McCanns had somehow been contaminated from contact with a corpse in their line of work at home? It doesn't seem very plausible.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You said the dogs got it wrong in Jersey leading to a 20 million waste. Surely you know the circumstances before you make such a claim?

You haven't answered my question.

Plumbthedepths

cnocbui wrote:

You haven't answered my question.

The results of DNA testing was withheld, btw the dogs didn't withhold the results. You clearly have not read up on what happened in Jersey. I suggest you do.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The results of DNA testing was withheld, btw the dogs didn't withhold the results. You clearly have not read up on what happened in Jersey. I suggest you do.

What DNA test results were withheld? I have read up on what happened on Jersey, which is precisely why I am asking you why you seem to think something entirely different happened on Jersey.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Creol1 wrote: »

Bit of a coincidence though that the dogs were sent into several different apartments and only identified a cadaver scent in the one the McCanns were in, a sent which they also identified on a toy belonging to Madeleine.

The cadaver dogs reacted specifically to the cupboard in the apartment; why would a specific area be significant if we're to believe the McCanns had somehow been contaminated from contact with a corpse in their line of work at home? It doesn't seem very plausible.

Why were the Portuguese tracker and SAR dogs - quite a few of them - unable to find where Madeline's body had been taken to and hidden, if you think the UK dogs for money were correct?